Waterford University discussion

hardybuck

invara wrote: »

The cost of delivering a university in the SE is comparable to the cost in Limerick, Cork, Maynooth, Dublin or Cork- indeed we have created four new universities in the country since 1989. Universities when done properly (and where they are needed) expand the economy and increase the tax base- over time they more than pay for themselves (Brian Lucey uses a multiple of 4.3- so for every €1 invested, GDP grows by €4.3). Remember the state started investing €1bn in DIT's Grangegorman in 2011 when we were bust. I think the SE can no longer afford not to have one and that it is leading to our economic malaise.

Irish universities bounce around the league tables- they spend significant money on PR- to relate drops to funding, and rise to talent. It is laughable that the media buy this uncritically.

Chuck's investment in Irish higher education was equivalent to half of one year's government spending (he donated around €1bn, the Government spends around €1.5bn and fees/research/EIB borrowing brings this to €2bn), so over 25 years, Chuck's investment was strategic but it is nothing like getting a fair share of state investment.

So again, putting aside potential return on investment, what are the costs associated with this proposal, and where would the money come from?

The Higher Education Sector received a 4% increase in funding in 2019 (€64m in 2019) most of which went on capital. Do you see it coming from voted expenditure, or do you foresee EIB funding, or both?

By 2016 Chuck gave €1.5bn to education projects in Ireland - that when matched by Government meant a lot of projects happened that wouldn't otherwise have been possible.

UL got €103m - and that's 61% greater than the extra money that was available for the sector in 2019.

invara

hardybuck wrote: »

So again, putting aside potential return on investment, what are the costs associated with this proposal, and where would the money come from?

The Higher Education Sector received a 4% increase in funding in 2019 (€64m in 2019) most of which went on capital. Do you see it coming from voted expenditure, or do you foresee EIB funding, or both?

By 2016 Chuck gave €1.5bn to education projects in Ireland - that when matched by Government meant a lot of projects happened that wouldn't otherwise have been possible.

UL got €103m - and that's 61% greater than the extra money that was available for the sector in 2019.

The costs depend on how it would be done. To add 6k undergraduate places would cost around €250m in capital and €70m in annual recurring exchequer funding (mix of fee and core grant)- this would bring WIT up to UL scale, and would take around a decade to be filled out. To do a new greenfield site university would cost around €400m in capital and somewhere between €70m-€130m. Both options would leverage significant extra funding- student contribution to fees (circa €20m), accommodation etc... (circa €130m), EU research funding etc...

Each of the 7 universities has current plans to spend €200-300m on capital projects in this five-year window, which puts the sensibleness of a WIT into focus. I would envisage that being made available through an EIB loan either extending the borrowing framework to the IoTs or putting in place an investment vehicle (such as the Grangegorman development agency). The annual recurring exchequer funding (mix of fee and core grant) would grow naturally based on student population growth and cracking the IoT/Uni funding barrier in voted expenditure (essentially an IoT student is resourced at €9k, university at €17k)- this progress would take some time but is the same route DCU/UL took in 1989-1999, and NUIM took in 1997-2007.

Chuck's money was brilliant, transformative, of his €7bn fortune, he gave €1.1 billion in Ireland through 1,030 grants over 30 years, with around €1bn in higher education. His money cajoled the Government into investing in Limerick and in scientific research at a time when they did not wish to. While he made a great impact, but to be very clear- the state built UL, Chuck helped.

BBM77

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Leo Varadkar asked about the university again expressing disappointment with the lack of progress.

I wonder if it's occurred to anyone in the dept that things would progress much quicker if Carlow was detached from this development

https://www.wlrfm.com/2019/09/09/taoiseach-frustrated-at-lack-of-progress-for-tech-uni-in-the-south-east/

“We’re very frustrated about it…” Christ they would drive you to drugs! How do they think people in Waterford feel listening to this bull for decades?

azimuth17

Last March or so he was "exasperated" at the failure of the HSE to build the second cath lab, which is still not even designed. Now he's "frustrated" about the delay in the Technological University. What kind of Taoiseach is he? Who controls teh cabinet and government agenda? I just wonder what the third emotion will be about something else his government fails to deliver?

Harry Palmr

It's not the job of the PM to run every dept correctly!

In truth the current stand off with the Carlow IT unions could be a good thing.

invara might have a view on this - could the dept of ed get frustrated and plough on without them or is that too much to hope for?

fits

One thing I dont see mentioned here, WIT need to get their finances in order.

invara

fits wrote: »

One thing I dont see mentioned here, WIT need to get their finances in order.

Indeed.... admittedly a very difficult thing when the Government keeps cutting back the core grant (until the institute plays ball and goes gently into a Kilkenny HQ, an unfunded merger etc...), and the brutally unfair Carriganore settlement. A frustrated Taoiseach tends to take his frustration somewhere. All WIT can do is keep growing to address the needs of the young people of the SE- something it has done with renewed verve for the past few years.

Harry- I see no real hope that this Government will be able to do anything meaningful to progress the higher education needs of the SE. I suspect our only hope is to wait them out and see if the next lot (even if it is a reconstituted version of this Government- with presumably some kind of a voice from Waterford) can grab this nettle and do something to halt the region's brain drain.

invara

I will just leave these two stories here for comparison....

UCC spent €4.5m without proper procurement, WIT €397k

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/45m-ucc-spend-non-compliant-468343.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/397k-spent-by-waterford-institute-of-technology-did-not-follow-guidelines-949703.html

imacman

fits wrote: »

One thing I dont see mentioned here, WIT need to get their finances in order.

The Finances article in the examiner is a complete non story but blown up with a sensationalist headline https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/397k-spent-by-waterford-institute-of-technology-did-not-follow-guidelines-949703.html

First off the €144,408 spent on travel was under the tender level per transaction as stated in the story so the guide lines were followed in that case ( the public sector procurement states a tender is not required for procurement under €20,000 and transactions under that limit can be handled with quotes).

Why is that amount included in their total in their headline if it is in compliance with procurement rules???

The other costs relating to advertising and franking where not processed properly because of delays in the OGP (Office of Government Procurement) who didn't respond in time to a procurement process that where under time and operational pressure. WIT had to push on with their own tender process because if they hadn't they wouldn't have had an advertising campaign or any out going post for that period.

So the governments own procurement office contributed to that issue, why that is not mentioned anywhere in the story???

The deficit in WIT is a product of the government cuts over the last 10 years and in fact WIT has grown its students numbers ( its only way of increasing its funding ) over the last 4 years against the odds and is preforming miracles to keep itself going .

So what is the purpose of this story apart from sticking the knife into WIT and actively working to damage their reputation . Of course the man on the street wont read beyond the headline and conclude that the fat cats in WIT are wasting the tax payers money.Welcome to the post truth world

Harry Palmr

Some good news albeit nothing to surprise or shock

https://www.waterfordlive.ie/news/home/477869/multi-million-euro-building-for-waterford-institute-of-technology-reaches-planning-stages.html

A planning application has been submitted to Waterford City and County Council for a new building for Waterford Institute of Technology’s (WIT) main campus on the Cork Road in Waterford.

The proposed 12,800 square metre engineering, computing and general teaching building is the largest of one of 11 state-of-the-art projects announced in 2017 as part of a Project Ireland 2040 investment in institutes of technology.

Dr Ken Thomas, Head of the School of Engineering said the new facilities will be key to educating in-demand engineers at undergraduate level and upskilling engineers through flexible and postgraduate programmes. As part of its portfolio WIT recently introduced a common engineering honours degree. In addition a range of flexible options are in demand with working engineers and their employers wishing to bring their upskill in next generation technologies.

invara

Movement on the new building, planning permission is being sought- Yipppieee!
https://www.waterfordchamber.ie/waterford/waterford-news/1272-multi-million-euro-building-for-waterford-institute-of-technology-reaches-planning-stages

Of course, followers of this board will take the sign sceptically. Good news to be sure, there are plenty of drawers in WIT filled with drawings of unbuilt plans. It would be good to be looking a giant hole in the ground, white vans with breakfast roll wrappers stuffed into the front of the window, and some actual construction activity. I dream of trying to teach over the sound of a kango hammer- a sound not heard in these parts for an entire economic boom and bust cycle.

imacman

News of the government bail out of ITTralee this week
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/government-gives-5m-in-emergency-funding-to-keep-it-tralee-afloat-1.4021249

ITtralee looks like its unsustainable in the long term and CIT and the people of Cork must be questioning why CIT would have to take on this millstone of an institute that will drag them down and decimate their finances which are currently in the black. Is the mumbo jumbo TU status worth that sacrifice.

JaCrispy

imacman wrote: »

News of the government bail out of ITTralee this week
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/government-gives-5m-in-emergency-funding-to-keep-it-tralee-afloat-1.4021249

ITtralee looks like its unsustainable in the long term and CIT and the people of Cork must be questioning why CIT would have to take on this millstone of an institute that will drag them down and decimate their finances which are currently in the black. Is the mumbo jumbo TU status worth that sacrifice.

Oh the irony

vriesmays

More publicity:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/female-lecturer-sexually-harassed-by-male-students-38539274.html

Johnboy1951

vriesmays wrote: »

More publicity:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/female-lecturer-sexually-harassed-by-male-students-38539274.html

Why were these students not booted from WIT?
That would surely have stopped it!

I fail to understand how it continued after the lecturer made an official complaint.

imacman

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Why were these students not booted from WIT?
That would surely have stopped it!

I fail to understand how it continued after the lecturer made an official complaint.

If you read the story the lecturer couldn't identify the offending students when the disciplinary process started

Johnboy1951

imacman wrote: »

If you read the story the lecturer couldn't identify the offending students when the disciplinary process started

I did read the story!

Would you care to quote from it where it stated that?

I certainly did not see it there.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/female-lecturer-sexually-harassed-by-male-students-38539274.html

Steve456

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I certainly did not see it there.

There's a bit more detail in the court's determination.

imacman

From the case file

On 10thOctober 2014 she notified the Respondent that she had been sexually harassed by a large group of male students in her assigned class. She said that she had been asked explicitly, coarse sexual questions and, in addition, various disgusting and explicit comments were made about male genitalia. On that same date she outlined that she was also the subject of general harassment and disruption by a large number of male students. She was not able to identify the individuals involved.

On 15thOctober 2014 the course leaders spoke to the three courses and confirmed that the sexual harassment had occurred. The course leaders were not asked to investigate further or to monitor the situation.

On 24thOctober 2014 she was again sexually harassed and the form of the harassment involvedthestudents blurting out inappropriate sexual references and sexual language including coarse words referring to parts of a woman’s body; references to sexual acts and comments about how the male students ‘would do her’. She informed the Head of Department of this experience and advised her that the behaviour had the purpose and effect of violating her dignity and creating an intimidating and hostile working environment. The Appellant was able to identify one male student who had engaged in disruptive behaviour to the Head of Department although she could not identify him as a perpetrator of sexual harassment or harassment based on her gender.

Although the Head of Department spoke to the male student and informed him that she was sending him to the Student Disciplinary Committee, the disruption and harassment continued

Wanderer78

imacman wrote: »

From the case file

On 10thOctober 2014 she notified the Respondent that she had been sexually harassed by a large group of male students in her assigned class. She said that she had been asked explicitly, coarse sexual questions and, in addition, various disgusting and explicit comments were made about male genitalia. On that same date she outlined that she was also the subject of general harassment and disruption by a large number of male students. She was not able to identify the individuals involved.

On 15thOctober 2014 the course leaders spoke to the three courses and confirmed that the sexual harassment had occurred. The course leaders were not asked to investigate further or to monitor the situation.

On 24thOctober 2014 she was again sexually harassed and the form of the harassment involvedthestudents blurting out inappropriate sexual references and sexual language including coarse words referring to parts of a woman’s body; references to sexual acts and comments about how the male students ‘would do her’. She informed the Head of Department of this experience and advised her that the behaviour had the purpose and effect of violating her dignity and creating an intimidating and hostile working environment. The Appellant was able to identify one male student who had engaged in disruptive behaviour to the Head of Department although she could not identify him as a perpetrator of sexual harassment or harassment based on her gender.

Although the Head of Department spoke to the male student and informed him that she was sending him to the Student Disciplinary Committee, the disruption and harassment continued

jesus thats an awful situation to be in, in a working environment, im glad it got pushed to court now

Johnboy1951

Wanderer78 wrote: »

jesus thats an awful situation to be in, in a working environment, im glad it got pushed to court now

+1

I would hope that some recording of the events could have taken place.
If so it might have been used to identify the main perpetrators.

It does look like a serious lack of action on behalf of WIT to stop this.

Muttley79

University of Limerick to create 330 new jobs under new plan https://jrnl.ie/4874886
No shortage of money been thrown at university limerick an extra 4000 students over five years,an extra 300 jobs created and worth 30 million euro to the local economy.we really are getting shafted in waterford

DLS_75

And what’s the president of WIT doing about it?

road_high

Muttley79 wrote: »

University of Limerick to create 330 new jobs under new plan https://jrnl.ie/4874886
No shortage of money been thrown at university limerick an extra 4000 students over five years,an extra 300 jobs created and worth 30 million euro to the local economy.we really are getting shafted in waterford

It’s really annoying- they have so many facilities in the west and south that the state continually lavishes on them- there’s already numerous ITs and cork Galway unis within a stones throw- there’s no way this should get the nod before the south east with 0 university gets sorted. Limerick played the poor mouth to the limit during the recession (a west of Ireland gift that they have) and the government flowed in like water. Statistically it’s the third wealthiest county in the ROI now. The 4 South east counties usually scrape the bottom- the haves and have nots basically.
They also they have way underused airports because the parish pumps all needed one each despite not having big enough catchment areas to warrant that level of investment- god forbid they’d have to share

road_high

Can some-one explain to me why Cork, Limerick, Galway all warrant IT's as well as full universities? Not to mention IT's in the respective regional towns of Tralee, Athlone and Sligo? Can the poor little darlings out west/south not cope with any restriction of choice? These should be merged (i.e. I mean rationalised) and ceetainly not put on the same level as a Waterford/Carlow IT merger would be - no doubt they'd be up in arms screaming Apartheid though

Max Powers

DLS_75 wrote: »

And what’s the president of WIT doing about it?

What can he do with no money, no government support, the opposite in fact

DLS_75

Max Powers wrote: »

What can he do with no money, no government support, the opposite in fact

He needs to speak up for his college.

DLS_75

Mind you, I’ve seen what they do to presidents who attempt to speak up for the college so maybe I understand his silence

road_high

DLS_75 wrote: »

Mind you, I’ve seen what they do to presidents who attempt to speak up for the college so maybe I understand his silence

Your man down in Limerick was never off the airwaves- did they no harm. They need to be well in with the political establishment

Max Powers

road_high wrote: »

Your man down in Limerick was never off the airwaves- did they no harm. They need to be well in with the political establishment

Limerick had noonan buying that site for UL, about 20 to 30 million.they are still benefiting from his actions. If we had someone in government, we and WIT would be in better shape. All the shouting on airwaves achieves nothing, look at halligan and others, great talkers, nothing else.