Waterford University discussion

azimuth17

DLS_75 wrote: »

And what’s the president of WIT doing about it?

Nothing, because he is under the thumb of the Higher Education Authority. Did invara or imacman not explain on this forum that a university is an independent corporate body that can borrow money without reference to anyone (from the EIB for example) but that WIT is completely dependent on the HEA and Department of Education for permission to buy even a toilet roll. Easy in those circumstances fro Dr Ed Walsh, former head of UL, to be on the airwaves. Look what happened to Prof Kieran Byrne when local idiots as well as national opposition were finished destroying him.

If WIT was a university it could have and would have bought the Glass site without even thinking about it, but in a situation where WIT budget has been cut 25% in recent years it is being treated like a rural primary school and our local politicos tolerate it. I wonder do they even know what's going on at all?

imacman

Spot on, WIT is complete dependant on the Dept for funding and the amount of money they receive is based on their student numbers , Institutes of Technology have no other form of funding available to them.
WIT is in a difficult position when it comes to cash flow as 88% of the funding goes out on staff wages and strong unions have got very favorable terms for staff in WIT over the years.

In contrast the pay levels in ITCarlow are much lower and that is where they have found the money to expand over the last 10 years . The problem for ITC is that if there is to be a merger their staff ( mainly academics) will want to match the terms of their compatriots in WIT. As reported in the Indo a few months ago that will immediately put ITC into 3 million a year decifit which will continue to grow. The management in ITC dont want to see their nice surplus disappear in the wages of staff thats why the MOU which didn't offer matching terms was rejected by Carlow academics at the start of the summer . So the IR issues and finance's are the rock that the TUSEI may perish on yet.

And the irony is of course even if the TU happens it wont have the same borrowing powers as the universities and continue to depend on student numbers for funding.Meanwhile UL are spending 180 million on the new city cenre campus , Trinity are spending 230 million on a new campus in grand canel dock , NUIG are spending 80 million on new student commendation and 50 million on new buildings , UCD spending 100 million on a new entrance and plaza buildings, all of these funding by the European investment bank and donations. The ITs and TUs will never be able to access that kind of development money and remain dependent on government handouts.

azimuth17 wrote: »

Nothing, because he is under the thumb of the Higher Education Authority. Did invara or imacman not explain on this forum that a university is an independent corporate body that can borrow money without reference to anyone (from the EIB for example) but that WIT is completely dependent on the HEA and Department of Education for permission to buy even a toilet roll. Easy in those circumstances fro Dr Ed Walsh, former head of UL, to be on the airwaves. Look what happened to Prof Kieran Byrne when local idiots as well as national opposition were finished destroying him.

If WIT was a university it could have and would have bought the Glass site without even thinking about it, but in a situation where WIT budget has been cut 25% in recent years it is being treated like a rural primary school and our local politicos tolerate it. I wonder do they even know what's going on at all?

hardybuck

These institutions have a huge amount of autonomy - which is reflected in the fact that so many different local arrangements for pay and expenditure exist. The PAC has reviewed dozens of high profile incidents of inappropriate spending, including some in WIT.

It's actually become apparent that the HEA hasn't had enough powers to hold third level institutions to account for their actions, which has led to calls for the closing of gaps in legislation to allow them to do so.

This will come as a culture shock to the institutions, as many of them have been self governing for hundreds of years, and there will need to be measures put in place to avoid micro-managing the sector.

Separately, I heard that Carlow has been doing really well in recent years from postgraduate and executive education. I understand that Carlow has quite similar student numbers, and you can see how they'd be reluctant to merge with WIT if they're about the same size and have a tight business model.

Glenomra

Ed Walsh gave limerick a 'jump start' through using his own initiative and tapping into philanthropists like Chuck Feeney - over 100, 000,000 from one benefactor alone!!!!!! Just wondering what have the Waterford presidents got. And if they haven't then why not.

Glenomra

Max Powers wrote: »

Limerick had noonan buying that site for UL, about 20 to 30 million.they are still benefiting from his actions. If we had someone in government, we and WIT would be in better shape. All the shouting on airwaves achieves nothing, look at halligan and others, great talkers, nothing else.

Good point and not alone did Michael Noonan help with the university site but also the site, for the proposed Opera Centre -currently at planning stage- and the magnificent river-side Lansdowne site etc.

Harry Palmr

But we got a motorway to Dublin!

invara

Glenomra wrote: »

! Just wondering what have the Waterford presidents got.

Metaphorically WIT leaders got hung from lampposts - five of them lined up as a warning to any ambitious leader. Ed Walsh got into fierce trouble with the HEA and Dept. of Ed, but every time they came at him with a cleaver Limerick politicians formed a protective guard. Waterford and South Eastern politicians have done nothing but harm WIT (and consequentially everyone who learns or works in WIT) over the past 15 years.


Carlow numbers are just flatly weird. If you look at the recent HEA landscape report they are a good deal smaller than WIT by some measures, but look to have inflated UG numbers.
https://hea.ie/assets/uploads/2019/10/Institutional-Profiles-2016-17.pdf
Total Contract Research Income per Academic Staff WIT: €28k, Carlow €5.5k
Staff numbers WIT: 900, Carlow 430
Income WIT: €89m, Carlow €41m
New entrants WIT: 1784, Carlow 1216

Undergrad student numbers are where the story does not tally for me… WIT: 6,616, Carlow 6,334… how are Carlow’s so high when their new entrants are 2/3rds of WITs. Just odd, especially when compared to the big gap in income and staff numbers. If Carlow has 1,216 1st years, it would need to hold on to students for 5.2 years to have 6,334 undergraduates. WIT has 1784 1st years and 6,616 equates to 3.5 years of students, which tallies with a mix of 3 and 4 year programmes. By my estimate, based on sectoral norms Carlow should have 4,200 undergraduates, suggesting 2,300 additional registrations that are not resourced (by income or staff), and do not appear to have come from normal competitive recruitment. Just plain odd.

The Tralee/Cork TU application was carved up by the international review panel because the panel did not accept the numbers submitted. I believe there is a credibility gap (or something unexplained) between new entrants and claimed UG numbers Carlow- they simply do not add up; and a panel is likely to have halted an application if it went forward without credible numbers behind it.

hardybuck

Did the politicians form a protective guard or are the institutions autonomous to the extent that the HEA couldn't intervene outside of harshly criticising them in the media like they did?

The Institute's Governing body manages and controls affairs of the Institute.

imacman

invara wrote: »

Metaphorically WIT leaders got hung from lampposts - five of them lined up as a warning to any ambitious leader. Ed Walsh got into fierce trouble with the HEA and Dept. of Ed, but every time they came at him with a cleaver Limerick politicians formed a protective guard. Waterford and South Eastern politicians have done nothing but harm WIT (and consequentially everyone who learns or works in WIT) over the past 15 years.


Carlow numbers are just flatly weird. If you look at the recent HEA landscape report they are a good deal smaller than WIT by some measures, but look to have inflated UG numbers.
https://hea.ie/assets/uploads/2019/10/Institutional-Profiles-2016-17.pdf
Total Contract Research Income per Academic Staff WIT: €28k, Carlow €5.5k
Staff numbers WIT: 900, Carlow 430
Income WIT: €89m, Carlow €41m
New entrants WIT: 1784, Carlow 1216

Undergrad student numbers are where the story does not tally for me… WIT: 6,616, Carlow 6,334… how are Carlow’s so high when their new entrants are 2/3rds of WITs. Just odd, especially when compared to the big gap in income and staff numbers. If Carlow has 1,216 1st years, it would need to hold on to students for 5.2 years to have 6,334 undergraduates. WIT has 1784 1st years and 6,616 equates to 3.5 years of students, which tallies with a mix of 3 and 4 year programmes. By my estimate, based on sectoral norms Carlow should have 4,200 undergraduates, suggesting 2,300 additional registrations that are not resourced (by income or staff), and do not appear to have come from normal competitive recruitment. Just plain odd.

The Tralee/Cork TU application was carved up by the international review panel because the panel did not accept the numbers submitted. I believe there is a credibility gap (or something unexplained) between new entrants and claimed UG numbers Carlow- they simply do not add up; and a panel is likely to have halted an application if it went forward without credible numbers behind it.

I not just odd, its lies and exaggerations. This is the institute who say they are the second biggest institute of technology in the country on the bottom of all their press releases.By every measure CIT and WIT are bigger

invara

hardybuck wrote: »

Did the politicians form a protective guard or are the institutions autonomous to the extent that the HEA couldn't intervene outside of harshly criticising them in the media like they did?

The Institute's Governing body manages and controls the affairs of the Institute.

There are brilliant stories of the strokes that helpful politicans pulled for their insititutions- sadly none can be reproduced here. Every university needs political patronage, and when in full flight it is a beauty to behold.

The universities are almost wholly dependent on the state for funding but because of the Irish Water decision (50% of funding needs to be non-State grant or their borrowings goes on the state balance sheet) the State plays along with the semi-fiction that they are independent. If you trawl the accounts of the universities (as I do from time-to-time- sad life that I lead, but that is my idea of fun) it is not the Mexicans funding our universities- it is Irish taxpayers.

hardybuck

invara wrote: »

There are brilliant stories of the strokes that helpful politicans pulled for their insititutions- sadly none can be reproduced here. Every university needs political patronage, and when in full flight it is a beauty to behold.

The universities are almost wholly dependent on the state for funding but because of the Irish Water decision (50% of funding needs to be non-State grant or their borrowings goes on the state balance sheet) the State plays along with the semi-fiction that they are independent. If you trawl the accounts of the universities (as I do from time-to-time- sad life that I lead, but that is my idea of fun) it is not the Mexicans funding our universities- it is Irish taxpayers.

I take your point regarding patronage, but they appear to be self governing to all intents and purposes.

Irish taxpayers are funding third level to an increasingly lesser extent. It will be incumbent on all Institutions to become more entrepreneurial and find more income streams and contain costs.

echancrure

invara wrote: »

Metaphorically WIT leaders got hung from lampposts - five of them lined up as a warning to any ambitious leader. Ed Walsh got into fierce trouble with the HEA and Dept. of Ed, but every time they came at him with a cleaver Limerick politicians formed a protective guard. Waterford and South Eastern politicians have done nothing but harm WIT (and consequentially everyone who learns or works in WIT) over the past 15 years.


Carlow numbers are just flatly weird. If you look at the recent HEA landscape report they are a good deal smaller than WIT by some measures, but look to have inflated UG numbers.
https://hea.ie/assets/uploads/2019/10/Institutional-Profiles-2016-17.pdf
Total Contract Research Income per Academic Staff WIT: €28k, Carlow €5.5k
Staff numbers WIT: 900, Carlow 430
Income WIT: €89m, Carlow €41m
New entrants WIT: 1784, Carlow 1216

Undergrad student numbers are where the story does not tally for me… WIT: 6,616, Carlow 6,334… how are Carlow’s so high when their new entrants are 2/3rds of WITs. Just odd, especially when compared to the big gap in income and staff numbers. If Carlow has 1,216 1st years, it would need to hold on to students for 5.2 years to have 6,334 undergraduates. WIT has 1784 1st years and 6,616 equates to 3.5 years of students, which tallies with a mix of 3 and 4 year programmes. By my estimate, based on sectoral norms Carlow should have 4,200 undergraduates, suggesting 2,300 additional registrations that are not resourced (by income or staff), and do not appear to have come from normal competitive recruitment. Just plain odd.

The Tralee/Cork TU application was carved up by the international review panel because the panel did not accept the numbers submitted. I believe there is a credibility gap (or something unexplained) between new entrants and claimed UG numbers Carlow- they simply do not add up; and a panel is likely to have halted an application if it went forward without credible numbers behind it.

Just pointing out that the difference in student numbers is due to part time students (see the numbers in the document provided).
IT Carlow is number one in the country for the number of part time lifelong students who mostly study at night or for short intensive periods. This is a Carlow strength and an area of expertise well aligned with the government and employers priorities. As an aside it is also a strong revenue stream.

The numbers are not cooked up, nor is the indicated yearly surplus for IT Carlow and the deficit wor Waterford IT.

Horusire

Carlow IT has circa 400 military students passing through it each year with about 90% not attending lectures on campus. Maybe that's some of the confusion

road_high

Carlow IT run a load of Lifelong learning professional courses aimed at industry (I’ve done one myself ) very much under the philosophy that third level learning is no longer just the preserve of school leavers and rightly so.
I support the merger as the south east badly needs a university now but the funding has to be upped to match the likes of UCC and UL. If not it’s just a window dressing exercise for political purposes.

BBM77

road_high wrote: »

Carlow IT run a load of Lifelong learning professional courses aimed at industry (I’ve done one myself ) very much under the philosophy that third level learning is no longer just the preserve of school leavers and rightly so.
I support the merger as the south east badly needs a university now but the funding has to be upped to match the likes of UCC and UL. If not it’s just a window dressing exercise for political purposes.

The University of the South East is just a window dressing exercise for political purposes. What the government has done must be more expensive at this stage than it would have been to just upgrade WIT to a full university.

imacman

road_high wrote: »

Carlow IT run a load of Lifelong learning professional courses aimed at industry (I’ve done one myself ) very much under the philosophy that third level learning is no longer just the preserve of school leavers and rightly so.
I support the merger as the south east badly needs a university now but the funding has to be upped to match the likes of UCC and UL. If not it’s just a window dressing exercise for political purposes.

Its is and will always be political window dressing , the south east has always needed a university but thats not what we are getting.We will be left with a TU without the university funding model,massive merger costs which will be full of fudges,inefficient compromises, infighting, disenfranchised staff and IR issues.

I personally think that the merged entity will be a less effective organisation than the existing institutions.I fully expect a prime time special and probably an inquiry in the next 10 years on now much tax payers money has been squandered to turn productive and effective Institutes of Technology into dysfunctional TUs all to add the university name over the door.

Glenomra

The Limerick Leader has a wonderful supplement this week on the history of UL during the 50 years since it was founded. Very detailed, very informative. For those interested in seeing the full potential of a new university in a region, including the initial sustained opposition and the major benefits that derive from it, it would be worth your while getting it somehow. Even though I live close to the university I had forgotten or never knew much of the remarkable story. 50 individual buildings including concert hall, swimming area etc. 49 on the Plassey campus, the 50th to be built in the city centre. an amazing 200,000,000 euro spent in the last 5 years. One of the contributors highlighting what UL did\does fro Limerick points out the need for a university in the South-East. In my relatively uninformed opinion it would be best for the region if Waterford on its own had a university with the attendant benefits for the city rather than trying to share them with a county town... with the resultant rivalry leading to loss of opportunities.

friendlyfun

Only city in Ireland without a University. Evidence of Waterford being left behind

azimuth17

Glenomra wrote: »

The Limerick Leader has a wonderful supplement this week on the history of UL during the 50 years since it was founded. Very detailed, very informative. For those interested in seeing the full potential of a new university in a region, including the initial sustained opposition and the major benefits that derive from it, it would be worth your while getting it somehow. Even though I live close to the university I had forgotten or never knew much of the remarkable story. 50 individual buildings including concert hall, swimming area etc. 49 on the Plassey campus, the 50th to be built in the city centre. an amazing 200,000,000 euro spent in the last 5 years. One of the contributors highlighting what UL did\does fro Limerick points out the need for a university in the South-East. In my relatively uninformed opinion it would be best for the region if Waterford on its own had a university with the attendant benefits for the city rather than trying to share them with a county town... with the resultant rivalry leading to loss of opportunities.

This is the very reason why Waterford does not have a university. Although it has always been the largest urban area by far in south east, Waterford does not dominate the region like Limerick does. With the investment mentioned here it obviously would, therefore towns around the region are nervous, therefore we "must" proceed with some bastard thing with something for everyone in the audience. Self evidently the wrong thing to do.

invara

Royal College of Surgeons Ireland (RCSI) has been authorised to use the title of university in Ireland today. This is the fifth new university in Ireland since 1989- DCU, UL, MU, TUD (if a TU counts) and now RCSI. Before 1989 there was four universities in Ireland (TCD, UCC, UCD, NUIG).

Today's annoucement was made by Minister McHugh and Minister Mitchell-O'Connor. These institutions were produced by the State through our politics. They are not independent, naturally occuring institutions- each is a political project. Every higher education insititution in this country is a regional institution- none could be considered as national as they draw students from a commutable hinterland.

In 2009 and again in 2011 FG promised to create a university in the SE based on WIT, where has that promise gone? Why have no investments been made in support of the new designation?

hardybuck

invara wrote: »

Royal College of Surgeons Ireland (RCSI) has been authorised to use the title of university in Ireland today. This is the fifth new university in Ireland since 1989- DCU, UL, MU, TUD (if a TU counts) and now RCSI. Before 1989 there was four universities in Ireland (TCD, UCC, UCD, NUIG).

Today's annoucement was made by Minister McHugh and Minister Mitchell-O'Connor. These institutions were produced by the State through our politics. They are not independent, naturally occuring institutions- each is a political project. Every higher education insititution in this country is a regional institution- none could be considered as national as they draw students from a commutable hinterland.

In 2009 and again in 2011 FG promised to create a university in the SE based on WIT, where has that promise gone? Why have no investments been made in support of the new designation?

How is RCSI a political project when it predates the foundation of the State by about 150 years?

jmcc

invara wrote: »

In 2009 and again in 2011 FG promised to create a university in the SE based on WIT, where has that promise gone? Why have no investments been made in support of the new designation?

The simple answer to that is that the gombeens in FG got into power. Politicians will promise anything to get their snouts in the public trough.

Regards...jmcc

invara

hardybuck wrote: »

How is RCSI a political project when it predates the foundation of the State by about 150 years?

I know, to hear them speak one would think that they were as estranged from the State as the Queen.

3 things make me thing RCSI's university statuss is a political project- there have been two Bills passed into law in the past few years designed to specifically give RCSI university status- a remarkable feat in this low energy Dáil. The first allowed RCSI to hold themselves out as a university abroad, but bizarrely not at home, the second allowed today's annoucement.
Two, along with UL, RCSI was awarded one of the two new graduate entry programmes into medicine. Three, EU undergraduate students are funded through the student fees scheme, I know the international fees are massive and it does not get a block grant (although it has accessed EIB lending eg. €40m last month).

Today's annoucement was made by the Minister, it was in his gift.

hardybuck

invara wrote: »

I know, to hear them speak one would think that they were as estranged from the State as the Queen.

3 things make me thing RCSI's university statuss is a political project- there have been two Bills passed into law in the past few years designed to specifically give RCSI university status- a remarkable feat in this low energy Dáil. The first allowed RCSI to hold themselves out as a university abroad, but bizarrely not at home, the second allowed today's annoucement.
Two, along with UL, RCSI was awarded one of the two new graduate entry programmes into medicine. Three, EU undergraduate students are funded through the student fees scheme, I know the international fees are massive and it does not get a block grant (although it has accessed EIB lending eg. €40m last month).

Today's annoucement was made by the Minister, it was in his gift.

They appear to have a strong reputation internationally going back quite a while, I think they stand out a bit from the others.

The status was probably key to getting the huge income from international students and crucially maintaining a supply of trainees into the system and hospitals like Waterford.

Dunmoreroader

So the latest tally is;
Region Population Uni.'s 1st Uni. founded Pop. per Uni.
Greater Dublin/Mideast: 2.03M 6 1592 0.34M
Southwest (incl.Cork): 0.69M 1 1845 0.69M
West (incl. Galway): 0.45M 1 1845 0.45M
Midwest (incl. Limerick): 0.39M 1 1972 0.39M
Southeast (incl. Waterford): 0.50M 0 ???? n/a
Borders 0.39M 0
Midlands 0.29M 0

So 6 Uni.s for 2 million in the entire Greater Dublin/Mideast region and still none for the 1/2 a mil down here in the Southeast

Harry Palmr

Some news for undergrad places

More than €1.2 million has been announced for 142 additional places across six undergraduate courses at Waterford Institute of Technology (WIT) in key skills areas as part of the Government’s Human Capital Initiative (HCI).

Pillar Two of the HCI is a key part of the Government’s Future Jobs Ireland strategy and its focus on enhancing skills and developing and attracting talent.

There will be 71 additional places created each year (over two years) across six courses. Eight places will be created on the new Bachelor of Business (Hons) in Business Information Systems. Existing courses where additional student places will be created include BSc (Hons) in Applied Computing (16), BSc in Multimedia Applications Development (12), Bachelor of Engineering (Honours) (10), BSc in Information Technology (15) and BSc in Software Systems Development (10).

https://www.waterfordlive.ie/news/national/502225/government-announces-1-2-million-for-new-student-places-at-waterford-institute-of-technology.html

imacman

Why isn't WIT getting funding like this, god knows it needs lots of refurbishment.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/further-boost-for-cit-as-bishopstown-campus-set-for-19m-refurbishment-970998.html

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2019-press-releases/PR19-12-17.html

Bards

imacman wrote: »

Why isn't WIT getting funding like this, god knows it needs lots of refurbishment.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/further-boost-for-cit-as-bishopstown-campus-set-for-19m-refurbishment-970998.html

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2019-press-releases/PR19-12-17.html

Two words... Political representation

Bards

imacman wrote: »

Why isn't WIT getting funding like this, god knows it needs lots of refurbishment.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/further-boost-for-cit-as-bishopstown-campus-set-for-19m-refurbishment-970998.html

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2019-press-releases/PR19-12-17.html

Two words... Political representation

fits

imacman wrote: »

Why isn't WIT getting funding like this, god knows it needs lots of refurbishment.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/further-boost-for-cit-as-bishopstown-campus-set-for-19m-refurbishment-970998.html

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2019-press-releases/PR19-12-17.html

If they get the TUSE into gear Im sure lots of money will be forthcoming.