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Waterford University discussion
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No it doesn't seem to be related to the TU and is from the Ireland 2040 fund. I heard today its was driven by the local politicians lobbying, unfortunately Waterford has none with any influenceDunmoreroader wrote: »Have CIT to get Munster Technological University(MTU) into gear to draw down this money?0 -
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Anyone got any opinions on whether the election is going to have any affect on the TU proposals. I see John Halligan has retired and wont be standing again so its looks like Waterford isn't going to have any front bench representation again unless Sinn Fein go into government which I will doubt will happen.
If Fianna Fail get in which is very likely I think MTU is key to the future of the TUs as CIT is in Micheál Martins constituency and Michael McGrath the likely Finance minister. With a major reluctance within CIT to take on the millstone of debt that comes with ITtralee could a Fianna Fail government with a Cork Taoiseach reverse course and allow CIT to go it alone as a TU as they are very close to the TU criteria on their own as it stands. Lets not forget after WIT was made an IT in the 90s that it was political pressure from Cork that got CIT upgraded and afterwards more political pressure got all the rest of the RTCs upgraded to the same status.
That would blow the whole process open and im sure at that point WIT and ITcarlow would go their separate ways and fight it out for TU status individually. How a TU merger would work was never thought through as the IR issues in the WIT and ITCarlow show and the mess that was made of the MTU application.It would actually cost way less for the ITs to go alone and try to reach the TU criteria without the massive costs of a merger process. This is irish politics so nothing would surprise me.0 -
Anyone got any opinions on whether the election is going to have any affect on the TU proposals. I see John Halligan has retired and wont be standing again so its looks like Waterford isn't going to have any front bench representation again unless Sinn Fein go into government which I will doubt will happen.
If Fianna Fail get in which is very likely I think MTU is key to the future of the TUs as CIT is in Micheál Martins constituency and Michael McGrath the likely Finance minister. With a major reluctance within CIT to take on the millstone of debt that comes with ITtralee could a Fianna Fail government with a Cork Taoiseach reverse course and allow CIT to go it alone as a TU as they are very close to the TU criteria on their own as it stands. Lets not forget after WIT was made an IT in the 90s that it was political pressure from Cork that got CIT upgraded and afterwards more political pressure got all the rest of the RTCs upgraded to the same status.
That would blow the whole process open and im sure at that point WIT and ITcarlow would go their separate ways and fight it out for TU status individually. How a TU merger would work was never thought through as the IR issues in the WIT and ITCarlow show and the mess that was made of the MTU application.It would actually cost way less for the ITs to go alone and try to reach the TU criteria without the massive costs of a merger process. This is irish politics so nothing would surprise me.
Was wondering about this too. I thought FF had said they would change the law to allow I.T.'s go it alone to Uni status once they met the current criteria. That would suit Cork I.T. so the Cork lobby will get behind it but they couldn't just change the terms for Cork only (could they? :eek: ) so for once lobbying by the Corkies might actually help Waterford rather than fcuk us over.0 -
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Who knows where it is going but nothing would surprise me. The whole TU project has never been about education , it purely been a political process.
The original idea came from the 2010 Hunt report which was born out of the crash and was more concerned with cost cutting rather than the future of third level.
We have reaped the dividends of that thinking over the last 10 years with the massive shortfall of third level funding and the fall down the ranking tables.
The ironic thing is that if the plan to consolidate ITs into TUs to reduce costs it actually has gone that other way with mergers actually going to increase costs massively. But once the local Fine Gael politicans can say we brought a university to your town it doesn't seem to matter.The TU process is an emperor who has no clothes but no one in the IT sector has the courage to call it out for the mess its is .
This was from a piece in the independent yesterday which sums up whats going on , here comes university of Killybegs and Letterfrack
Vote for me and you'll get a university" sounds like a tongue-in-cheek campaign slogan, but it's one that many Fine Gael candidates will be able to promise in next month's election.
And it's all because a revolution is taking place in higher education which will more than double the number of university towns across the country.
At present we have five of them: Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Maynooth.
But over the next few years that number will more than double to include Tralee, Sligo, Letterkenny, Athlone, Dundalk, Waterford, and Carlow.
At least 10 other towns will have smaller 'satellite' university campuses including Clonmel, Thurles, Ennis, Wexford, Wicklow, Killybegs, Castlebar, Letterfrack and Mountbellow in Co Galway.
It's not quite a university for everyone, but a lot more institutions will be putting university plaques on their doors. The change in status will follow the upgrading of institutes of technology (ITs) to technological universities (TUs) - a process which is being speeded up with ministers pumping millions into their transition.0 -
Deathly silence on the SE higher education chestnut from all major parties. FG=TU, FF are silent but voted for TU bill and commissioned the Hunt report, SF being responsible = going along with TU, Labour = lets sort out Wexford with a microcampus in a field. So all very gloomy from the major parties.
Based on past experience, just when you think things could not get any worse, they get worse in a new and innovative way.0 -
Waterford needs to change tack and campaign for a university with women-only professorships.0
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Clonmel as a satellite to TUSE I take it? Kilkenny will be up in arms.0
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Harry Palmr wrote: »Clonmel as a satellite to TUSE I take it? Kilkenny will be up in arms.
Tipperary is not part of the south east region anymore,they voted to allign themselves with the mid west region,even they must know the south east region is seriously in trouble,LIT have a campus in clonmel.nobody is saying anything or campaigning about a university in Waterford during this election which is worrying0 -
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The irony of it, might we see Waterford students hiring minibuses to study at the university of Limerick in Clonmel?! Are they already doing so?0
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Tipperary is not part of the south east region anymore,they voted to allign themselves with the mid west region,even they must know the south east region is seriously in trouble,LIT have a campus in clonmel.nobody is saying anything or campaigning about a university in Waterford during this election which is worrying
What vote?0 -
Royal College of Surgeons Ireland (RCSI) has been authorised to use the title of university in Ireland today. This is the fifth new university in Ireland since 1989- DCU, UL, MU, TUD (if a TU counts) and now RCSI. Before 1989 there was four universities in Ireland (TCD, UCC, UCD, NUIG).
Today's annoucement was made by Minister McHugh and Minister Mitchell-O'Connor. These institutions were produced by the State through our politics. They are not independent, naturally occuring institutions- each is a political project. Every higher education insititution in this country is a regional institution- none could be considered as national as they draw students from a commutable hinterland.
In 2009 and again in 2011 FG promised to create a university in the SE based on WIT, where has that promise gone? Why have no investments been made in support of the new designation?Dunmoreroader wrote: »Was wondering about this too. I thought FF had said they would change the law to allow I.T.'s go it alone to Uni status once they met the current criteria. That would suit Cork I.T. so the Cork lobby will get behind it but they couldn't just change the terms for Cork only (could they? :eek: ) so for once lobbying by the Corkies might actually help Waterford rather than fcuk us over.
As someone who worked in an IT and a University, what benefits do you think this will bring. ITT becoming part of TUD certainly hasn't changed anything for students on the ground. The same with RCSI. I know people like the title of a University but it won't actually change anything, other than just cause administration annoyance for staff.0 -
Interesting to see that SFI Ireland have been rebuked by the dept of education for towing the party line on TUs. Apparently nobody can question the the value of the TU process no matter how much it costs and how contrived the mergers become.0
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Listening to radio half asleep this am and this was really brought home to me .....
some 50% of current leaving cert students will leave the south-east for further education.
This is a huge cost ... mostly on parents ..... with that spending power leaving the region.
A large drain on the region, as well as on individuals.0 -
I hear there has been zero progress in negotiations between the TUI and ITCarlow and Forsa and Unite with both institutions.Everything is on hold till after the election, what chance of a Fianna Fáil Sinn Fein coalition with David Cullinane Minister for Education0
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I hear there has been zero progress in negotiations between the TUI and ITCarlow and Forsa and Unite with both institutions.Everything is on hold till after the election, what chance of a Fianna Fáil Sinn Fein coalition with David Cullinane Minister for Education
Has David or more importantly SF made any offical party policies on WIT? I have never heard of any?0 -
No surprise... Fianna Fáil are entirely silent on technological universities, forced mergers and halting the brain-drain from the SE
https://www.fiannafail.ie/summary-of-education-measures/
there might be more detail tomorrow in the full manifesto.0 -
Surely reform and rejuvenation of WIT makes more sense than heading for University status? It would make more sense, be more feasible and do just as much for the area0
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Surely reform and rejuvenation of WIT makes more sense than heading for University status? It would make more sense, be more feasible and do just as much for the area
Four new universities (including TUD) in Dublin since 1989 suggest a new university makes a bit of sense and is feasible.
University status is required for regional resource parity with the other city-regions. We lose 50% of every leaving certificate class in the region to Dublin/Cork/Limerick universities. Universities are funded at a higher level than IoTs/TU, have the full spectrum of courses and have access to borrowing to fund capital development. So it is hard to see what regional rejuvenation can happen without the full university status.0 -
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Four new universities (including TUD) in Dublin since 1989 suggest a new university makes a bit of sense and is feasible.
University status is required for regional resource parity with the other city-regions. We lose 50% of every leaving certificate class in the region to Dublin/Cork/Limerick universities. Universities are funded at a higher level than IoTs/TU and have access to borrowing to fund capital development. So it is hard to see what regional rejuvenation can happen without the full university status.
But surely that is what should be campaigned for, parity in funding. Simply make ITs comparable in autonomy to Universities and funding structure but with clear mandates. The truth is, this is all University status is really doing, and it seems blatantly unnecessary. Ever since the TUD set up (I don't work there now) it feels (from talking to staff) like there is a real disconnect and it is basically DIT enlarged with them and Blanch being satellite (ignored) campuses, hopefully that changes. Christ, their president clearly just wants to turn it into UCD by any other name, with several of the staff I know from DIT saying it is like he simply wants to get rid of the DIT traditions and turn it into his version of UCD as he thinks this is what a University has to be.
As far as the brain drain claims, alot of people leave there area when they go to 3rd level, setting up a University to stop people leaving homes seems odd and counter productive, considering Ireland as an incredibly small nation is heavily overstocked as it is. Are people seriously advocating for a University in every county? Why not make the IT more attractive
Considering many of the complaints in thread have been. about staff and management, what will being a University do to fix these issues. A far simpler solution would be simply to give ITs the same access to funding.
I don't care whether WIT becomes a University or not, as the truth is, unless it fixes the other claimed issues, I cannot see it making a difference. If they get it, good for them, if you think it will make a difference to the area, well it won't unless other things are fixed, and then the question has to be asked, surely all of these things could have been fixed without this other rigmarole.
What happens when it becomes a University, does it lose the drive for IT based courses, or will it still be an IT with a University name, which seems to be more important to everyone than what being a university is the name. Having graduated myself from a University, I was schooled by the students coming out of the IT in how to apply myself when I graduated, a far better understanding for the real world. In a University now, the IT grads who come in at PhDs and MSc level are always far more trustworthy and intelligent in the lab.
Simply a question, why waste all this time in rebranding rather than pushing the local TDs for the change in what the status means in regards funding and autonomy (although there is more of that than people seem to think), and go from there.0 -
Cramcycle.... thanks for your detailed post and engaging with the issue.
My suggestion is that the SE needs a full university as defined under the 1997 university act. Such an institution should serve the 20,000 individuals from the 500,000+ person region. At the moment 2/3 of all level 8 degree learners have to leave the region for higher education. this is a situation no other Irish nuts3 region has to endure (with the exception of the borders which is poorly served by Derry city). The region formerly the 2nd richest region in the country, as recently at 1980, is not vying for the poorest spot. Unemployment is running at 7.2%, tax returns are around 50% per capita. To stabalise the region socially and economically an institution like UL, NUIG or UCC is required. Limerick is the most recent example of how a regional full service university rejuvenates an economy.
TUD is an entirely different story. DIT was extraordinarily well funded before the GFC, recurring funding that it has lost over the past 15 years, but it is in receipt of almost €1bn capex through the GrangeGorman development agency. Over the next few years it will absorb the relative minnows of Blanch and Tallaght, and once time has done some work rationalise to GrangeGorman. There was no economic or social demand for TUD- rather it was an efficency excercice to finally clean up the Dublin VEC 3rd level sector.
I am not sure what issues you claim are ongoing in WIT. As part of the process of preventing the development of a university in Waterford, WIT has been investigated forward and backwards by the CAG, two ministerial visitors, the PAC, the HEA... and after plenty of smoke no real fire was found. We have issues (people on this thread will know I work in WIT, as a visitor from what I presume is UCD- you may not), but nothing of substance- the Institute is under enormous pressure because of the regions demand for university services, the resources available as an IoT and the strategic violence of forced merger and denial of our section 9 request.0 -
But surely that is what should be campaigned for, parity in funding. Simply make ITs comparable in autonomy to Universities and funding structure but with clear mandates. The truth is, this is all University status is really doing, and it seems blatantly unnecessary. Ever since the TUD set up (I don't work there now) it feels (from talking to staff) like there is a real disconnect and it is basically DIT enlarged with them and Blanch being satellite (ignored) campuses, hopefully that changes. Christ, their president clearly just wants to turn it into UCD by any other name, with several of the staff I know from DIT saying it is like he simply wants to get rid of the DIT traditions and turn it into his version of UCD as he thinks this is what a University has to be.
As far as the brain drain claims, alot of people leave there area when they go to 3rd level, setting up a University to stop people leaving homes seems odd and counter productive, considering Ireland as an incredibly small nation is heavily overstocked as it is. Are people seriously advocating for a University in every county? Why not make the IT more attractive
Considering many of the complaints in thread have been. about staff and management, what will being a University do to fix these issues. A far simpler solution would be simply to give ITs the same access to funding.
I don't care whether WIT becomes a University or not, as the truth is, unless it fixes the other claimed issues, I cannot see it making a difference. If they get it, good for them, if you think it will make a difference to the area, well it won't unless other things are fixed, and then the question has to be asked, surely all of these things could have been fixed without this other rigmarole.
What happens when it becomes a University, does it lose the drive for IT based courses, or will it still be an IT with a University name, which seems to be more important to everyone than what being a university is the name. Having graduated myself from a University, I was schooled by the students coming out of the IT in how to apply myself when I graduated, a far better understanding for the real world. In a University now, the IT grads who come in at PhDs and MSc level are always far more trustworthy and intelligent in the lab.
Simply a question, why waste all this time in rebranding rather than pushing the local TDs for the change in what the status means in regards funding and autonomy (although there is more of that than people seem to think), and go from there.
I agree I a lot of your points , there is a valid argument that a properly funded and resourced IT could be in many ways be as effective as a university without branding it "university" and there are examples of this around the world like MIT. The problem is there is no facility to borrow for ITs and is no political will to change that.
Even the TUs dont have the borrowing rules of traditional university and its galling to see the UL and Trinity getting huge low interest loans from the European Investment Bank to expand while WIT doesn't even have the funding to repair the leaking roof on the main building.
But I think Invara is correct that the real solution of vision is a the traditional university the has been a campaigned for in Waterford for decades. That university would have the funds and borrowing power to setup facilities like a medicine,veterinary or dental schools which always have been vested in the universities and there is no options for those courses in the southeast.Of course that will never happen as its not politically palatable and Waterford has never had a politician whit enough influence at government to get it over the line.
We are left with the shambolic TU process ,where WIT is dealing with a toxic partner who thinks the sun shines out of themselves, treats WIT with contempt and wants to dominate every part of the merger even though they are the smaller institution0 -
If there is no will to do that, there will be even less to push for a University. My own view is that you might have some hope of getting those changes across the line due to multiple reports claiming we have too many universities in the country as is.I agree I a lot of your points , there is a valid argument that a properly funded and resourced IT could be in many ways be as effective as a university without branding it "university" and there are examples of this around the world like MIT. The problem is there is no facility to borrow for ITs and is no political will to change that.
That is pretty gauling.Even the TUs dont have the borrowing rules of traditional university and its galling to see the UL and Trinity getting huge low interest loans from the European Investment Bank to expand while WIT doesn't even have the funding to repair the leaking roof on the main building.
I don't know much about Dental but have worked in Health and Veterinary schools. Medicine would be a good choice, although I suspect the opposition will be more from the medical profession looking to keep the elite status of the course rather than politicians. Veterinary would be great but it is a humongous cost to run in comparison to medicine. For it to be a runner, the government would have to step in and pay a huge amount more to WIT and subsequently UCD to run the undergrad course. The post-grad course is what keeps UCD veterinary running, the undergrad is a loss maker in the extreme.But I think Invara is correct that the real solution of vision is a the traditional university the has been a campaigned for in Waterford for decades. That university would have the funds and borrowing power to setup facilities like a medicine,veterinary or dental schools which always have been vested in the universities and there is no options for those courses in the southeast.Of course that will never happen as its not politically palatable and Waterford has never had a politician whit enough influence at government to get it over the line.
Having seen the TU merger process in its earliest form in ITT, I'd think it safer for one to go it alone and the other to become the dominant IT instead of merging.We are left with the shambolic TU process ,where WIT is dealing with a toxic partner who thinks the sun shines out of themselves, treats WIT with contempt and wants to dominate every part of the merger even though they are the smaller institution
The only other point I would make is, if it is a University you want rather than an IT, it should not be an aim to keep locals local but to attract people both nationally and internationally to your campus.0 -
multiple reports claiming we have too many universities in the country.
... not sure there has every been an spatial and economic analysis of our university provision. The bald number of universities to population analysis suggests a university of 20,000 people is needed for every 500,000 people- but that belies the huge institutional variety of what is a European university.
Certainly if there was a proper analysis I am not sure it would have concluded that Maynooth, DCU, UL, TUD and now RCSI should be made universities in the past 30 years. Indeed with the M20 being proposed, and the M18 being built it is odd that UL would have been created 1hr from the front door of NUIG, and 45 mins from UCC. But UL was created and has transformed the lives, economy and society of the Mid-West. That is all the people of the SE are asking for.0 -
Four new universities (including TUD) in Dublin since 1989 suggest a new university makes a bit of sense and is feasible.
University status is required for regional resource parity with the other city-regions. We lose 50% of every leaving certificate class in the region to Dublin/Cork/Limerick universities. Universities are funded at a higher level than IoTs/TU, have the full spectrum of courses and have access to borrowing to fund capital development. So it is hard to see what regional rejuvenation can happen without the full university status.
Have you a link to that 50%
And do we know how that compares to limerick and Galway for example?0 -
Other than give them fancier names, would a simple change in what is available for IoTs not achieve the same thing? Thats the crux of my point, if WIT had the same rules as a University but simply not called one, would that do the trick, and if so, would a legislative change to do so not be easier by local politicians as they could rope in politicians from across Ireland who would also benefit.... not sure there has every been an spatial and economic analysis of our university provision. The bald number of universities to population analysis suggests a university of 20,000 people is needed for every 500,000 people- but that belies the huge institutional variety of what is a European university.
Certainly if there was a proper analysis I am not sure it would have concluded that Maynooth, DCU, UL, TUD and now RCSI should be made universities in the past 30 years. Indeed with the M20 being proposed, and the M18 being built it is odd that UL would have been created 1hr from the front door of NUIG, and 45 mins from UCC. But UL was created and has transformed the lives, economy and society of the Mid-West. That is all the people of the SE are asking for.
Maybe making it a University is easier but TUD was in the works for a long time and it is still a cluster **** IMO. This said if going the University route is simpler, and it could be, based on the more knowledgeable posters here, I'd be looking to leave Carlow out of it.
Its a weird reason to want a University in an area since most of the students will not be local and many students specifically pick another place to get away from home. I know people from Galway who went to Dublin and vice versa. If I grew up in Waterford and it had a University, I'd still go somewhere else, not healthy to stay local if you can get out IMO.Have you a link to that 50%
And do we know how that compares to limerick and Galway for example?
This said, many of the points made since I waded in are valid, although i cannot see how most of them could not be resolved through changes to existing rules, which would also benefit other iTs as well. I think imacman made the most sense but I still cannot see why the focus on the word university, when simply changing the terms and conditions of the existing legislature, which has more hope of happening quicker would be better. But I could be completely wrong.0 -
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Its a weird reason to want a University in an area since most of the students will not be local and many students specifically pick another place to get away from home.
What you are not making any allowance for are those in the South-East whose families cannot afford to support them living away from home to attend distant Universities.
They essentially are deprived of further education due to economic circumstances of their families.Other than give them fancier names, would a simple change in what is available for IoTs not achieve the same thing?
Perception means a lot ..... so a 'Uni qualification' has more meaning/clout/regard than any similar qualification from a (perceived) lesser educational establishment.0
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