Waterford University discussion

Pablo Escobar

imacman wrote: »

This is a complete rubber stamp job , have you read the international panels reservations about the academic criteria financial position and the overall vision of the project.None of which has been fixed in the last six months , this is just a politically motivated rebrand job that plays well with voters and industry but in reality the TU emperor has no clothes.

I didn't until now.

The academic criteria were questions over classification of Research v Taught in 5 specific courses. They seem to have allowed a period of grace to put this right, but this doesn't seem insurmountable quite quickly and this report is now over a year old. I clearly don't know where they are with that.

The financial criteria specified that ITT Tralee ran a deficit and no plan was provided to fix that. Without detail it's difficult to assess this, but CIT dwarfs ITT so a combination of the two automatically makes this a much smaller issue, and at a guess probably not an issue at all. But again there's a lack of info here as it only relates to ITT.

The point on vision strikes me as lack of experience on the MTU team tbf, but the panel made the point that "this was for the future President of MTU to manage". And they go on to suggest developing a clear strategy into the future.......so while I'd agree that this isn't a good look, it's something that they are now likely very aware of thanks to the report.

imacman

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

I didn't until now.

The academic criteria were questions over classification of Research v Taught in 5 specific courses. They seem to have allowed a period of grace to put this right, but this doesn't seem insurmountable quite quickly and this report is now over a year old. I clearly don't know where they are with that.

The financial criteria specified that ITT Tralee ran a deficit and no plan was provided to fix that. Without detail it's difficult to assess this, but CIT dwarfs ITT so a combination of the two automatically makes this a much smaller issue, and at a guess probably not an issue at all. But again there's a lack of info here as it only relates to ITT.

The point on vision strikes me as lack of experience on the MTU team tbf, but the panel made the point that "this was for the future President of MTU to manage". And they go on to suggest developing a clear strategy into the future.......so while I'd agree that this isn't a good look, it's something that they are now likely very aware of thanks to the report.

Thr issues in Tralee run deep and although the government has pledged that CIT dont need to take on the debt will that really be honoured in a new government faced with a unprecedented recession/depression in the next few years
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/cork-it-will-not-have-to-take-on-it-tralee-debt-if-merged-minister-pledge-1.4042015
Also the TURN stragey group reported to the government that 90 million was needed in the first 3 years to make the MTU and TUSEI /Connacht Ulster alliances successful . Is that going to be honored in a new government facing a recession scenario.
It tralee students numbers have falled by 15% in the last 5 years and they have some highly paid lectueres with no students to teach. Early retirement , voluntary redundancy is not an option as the teaching unions are adamant that this needs to be implemented at a nation level rather that by individual institutions , that is too expensive for the government.
The plan for IT tralee to recover is to increase their student numbers by 12% by 2023 which is practically impossible with a declining 3rd demographic in the region and LIT and UL just up the road.

So where does this leave us , probably with a financially secure CIT taking on the 12 million debt of IT tralee with a projected deficit of 4 million a year over the next 3 years if their rescue plan doesn't work . It has taken a 5 million loan from the government just to keep the doors open last year
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/government-gives-5m-in-emergency-funding-to-keep-it-tralee-afloat-1.4021249
The government will claim the money isnt there in the upcoming recession to support Tralee so Cork will just have to take on the mounting debt.And then the big question is will the funding be available to move the MTU forward in the next few years . Going on the evidence of the last few years 3rd level education is at the bottom of the list when it comes to investment and that was in boom times. So that leaves up with CIT supporting a basketcase institute in Tralee with mounting debt , IR problems and no real investment to move forward from where they are now .In fact they will go backwards and all for the TU name on the door. So to me the celebrations about the MTU were laughable and the reasons I set out are worrying the staff in CIT and that's without even getting into the complex IR issues.The TU/merger idea is fatally flawed at it's core and has always been treated as it will be alright on the night and if you build it they will come basis ( which I always thought was shocking as you looked into the detail and found little to no planning or vision except we need a university name ).This approach may have worked when there was lots of money to throw at the problems that arose in the process but covid 19 has changed all that now .

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/review-finds-it-tralee-is-overstaffed-and-losing-money-899492.html

https://www.radiokerry.ie/tralee-not-disputing-operational-deficits/

You still as optimistic Pablo

Muttley79

1 sheep2 wrote: »

The sheer naivety of this.

Can you explain yourself a little better and offer a bit more to the conversation or is it just a personal attack to inflate that fat head

Dunmoreroader

Did I not hear that ITC's lecturers are on inferior terms to WIT's and will only green-light this turkey if they get parity?

imacman

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

Did I not hear that ITC's lecturers are on inferior terms to WIT's and will only green-light this turkey if they get parity?

Yes that is accurate, they have a role called assistant lecturer which is their junior grade and the pay is a lot less that the equilvent WIT ot other colleges in the IT sector. They have hired at large body of staff that level for the last few years, there is actually 4 or 5 of them advertised on the job vacancies section of their website at the moment.

So in a merger those staff have stated they want the same pay for the same work, which seems like a legitimate claim. The problem for ITcarlow is they have built their new buildings and expansions on a surplus of cash they have built up from paying less than the other colleges in the sector.This had been facilitated by a very docile union in Itcarlow compared to a very aggressive one in WIT.

Those expansions have increased their student numbers which again increased their funds. Its a really clever strategy and combined with the coming to college age of a massive demographic of celtic tiger kids who live in their region ( North Lenister commuterland ) they grew at the fastest rate of any IT between 2014 to 2018.

But now the problems arise , if they are the match the WIT lecturer rates they immediately go into debt , estimated to the tune of 2-3 million a year . So they puts them in trouble , where up to now they have been the leading lights on finanical terms in the IT sector.

Add to this the fact they are one of the last colleges in the country who havent gone to a semesterised year and as part of the merger they will have to move to that type of year. That will entail a change of conditions for lecturers and again they will look to be compinsated adding more costs .ITCarlow didnt address any of those concerns and these are the main reasons the MOU was rejected by the lecturers last summer.Im not sure what progress has been made since but either way this merger is going to cost ITcarlow way more that WIT.

skooterblue2

fits wrote: »

IT Carlow better on financial management and attracting international students. Surely they are complementary strengths.

The only thing Carlow is good at is cheaping out and grabbing money. They have no care or proper supports for their Autistic students. Because they wont pay for proper lecturers they get what they pay for.

fits

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The only thing Carlow is good at is cheaping out and grabbing money. They have no care or proper supports for their Autistic students. Because they wont pay for proper lecturers they get what they pay for.

There are a lot of excellent lecturers at IT Carlow. Their pay is not an indication of quality.

skooterblue2

fits wrote: »

There are a lot of excellent lecturers at IT Carlow. Their pay is not an indication of quality.

There maybe but I never met any of them, most small minded people embroiled in college politics. Money usually attracts quality.

Dexpat

imacman wrote: »

Yes that is accurate, they have a role called assistant lecturer which is their junior grade and the pay is a lot less that the equilvent WIT ot other colleges in the IT sector. They have hired at large body of staff that level for the last few years, there is actually 4 or 5 of them advertised on the job vacancies section of their website at the moment.


I don't doubt your overall point that staff in Carlow are probably on average on lower salaries than WIT, but it is incorrect to insinuate that they have an assistant lecturer grade and that it unique to them. All ITs have that grade. There are even being advertised at the moment in WIT and many of the staff profiles are listed as AL.

TU Dublin (ex DIT) has about 25% of lecturing staff at that level. It is the entry level grade for most academics. It has been a problem for years in DIT about progressing from AL to Lecturer grade and it was far from automatic. I believe in many of the other ITs it was more straightforward.

There are many valid arguements why the merger with Carlow is a bad idea but they don't need to be embellished.

It looks like the merger route will be forced on WIT or it will be continually starved of funds and fall further behind. It is essential though that if it does go ahead WIT is is the HQ and main campus. Anything else is not acceptable.

Harry Palmr

The first President of the TUSE in the news and star

https://waterford-news.ie/2020/06/03/it-carlow-president-confident-that-regional-tech-uni-will-be-realised/

fits

Dexpat wrote: »

imacman wrote: »

Yes that is accurate, they have a role called assistant lecturer which is their junior grade and the pay is a lot less that the equilvent WIT ot other colleges in the IT sector. They have hired at large body of staff that level for the last few years, there is actually 4 or 5 of them advertised on the job vacancies section of their website at the moment.


ble.

Where are they advertised?

Dexpat

fits wrote: »

Dexpat wrote: »

Where are they advertised?

https://www.itcarlow.ie/vacancies.htm

The assistant lecturer roles for Carlow IT here are at a salary scale of €38,138- €52,403 for new entrants. This is exactly the same scale in other ITs including WIT and in TU Dublin.

Maybe staff in Carlow are on poorer conditions but they aren't paid less.

fits

Dexpat wrote: »

fits wrote: »

https://www.itcarlow.ie/vacancies.htm

The assistant lecturer roles for Carlow IT here are at a salary scale of €38,138- €52,403 for new entrants. This is exactly the same scale in other ITs including WIT and in TU Dublin.

Maybe staff in Carlow are on poorer conditions but they aren't paid less.

I know where the Carlow ones are. Waterford rarely seem to advertise jobs at least I don’t see them often in the website. Was just wondering if I was looking in wrong place. Carlow do a lot more hiring.

CramCycle

Its the exact same contract as what I worked in IT Tallaght years ago. It's not bad money and if your hard working it leaves you plenty of time to do research and work on other things. If you get put on the hourly rate its a pain as despite being good per hour, you get little in the out of semester season.

Dexpat

fits wrote: »

Dexpat wrote: »

I know where the Carlow ones are. Waterford rarely seem to advertise jobs at least I don’t see them often in the website. Was just wondering if I was looking in wrong place. Carlow do a lot more hiring.

https://www.wit.ie/schools/science/dept-faculty-and-staff

They don't seem to have any academic post advertised at the moment but you can see from the staff profiles that they have plenty of assistant lecturers. It was said yesterday that this was unique to Carlow but in fact they are common to all ITs.

I suppose the lack of jobs available at the moment tells its own story. Its amazing that they have done relatively well with the resources they have available. The merger is being forced on them and if it goes ahead available resources will probably be diluted around the region rather than having a strong base like the other TUs.

imacman

Dexpat wrote: »

fits wrote: »

https://www.wit.ie/schools/science/dept-faculty-and-staff

They don't seem to have any academic post advertised at the moment but you can see from the staff profiles that they have plenty of assistant lecturers. It was said yesterday that this was unique to Carlow but in fact they are common to all ITs.

I suppose the lack of jobs available at the moment tells its own story. Its amazing that they have done relatively well with the resources they have available. The merger is being forced on them and if it goes ahead available resources will probably be diluted around the region rather than having a strong base like the other TUs.

My mistake on the assistant lecturers , I actually meant to say associate lecturer grade .Here is an example I pulled up from the waybackmachine
https://web.archive.org/web/20180217222814/http://www.itcarlow.ie/vacancies.htm
There are no associate lecturers in WIT

CramCycle

Dexpat wrote: »

fits wrote: »

https://www.wit.ie/schools/science/dept-faculty-and-staff

They don't seem to have any academic post advertised at the moment but you can see from the staff profiles that they have plenty of assistant lecturers. It was said yesterday that this was unique to Carlow but in fact they are common to all ITs.

I suppose the lack of jobs available at the moment tells its own story. Its amazing that they have done relatively well with the resources they have available. The merger is being forced on them and if it goes ahead available resources will probably be diluted around the region rather than having a strong base like the other TUs.

its very common. It is how we get in part time lecturers who are experts in their field and are only doing the odd hour or two. Also as a supplementary for postdocs who wish to go an academic pathway and are clearly suited to it.

I am surprised anyone thought it was rare as in the IT area it is very common, and they have been resistant to anyone going full time for years as they would have to make them permanent senior lecturers eventually.

imacman

My argument on the ITcarlow lecturer contract issues are based on this story from last year
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/another-tech-university-project-hit-by-wrangle-over-26m-issue-38294742.html

Also, Waterford IT lecturers have more favourable work practices, and bringing the systems into line would cost IT Carlow €2m-€3m a year.

It is understood that official projections of the combined deficit/debt and potential additional payroll costs would put the new TU into the red to the tune of €26m by 2024/25.

And of course the massive MTU/ITtralee financial difficulties that are set out in the story were never mentioned or acknowleged when thr MTU was announced last week

Dexpat

imacman wrote: »

My argument on the ITcarlow lecturer contract issues are based on this story from last year
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/another-tech-university-project-hit-by-wrangle-over-26m-issue-38294742.html

Also, Waterford IT lecturers have more favourable work practices, and bringing the systems into line would cost IT Carlow €2m-€3m a year.

It is understood that official projections of the combined deficit/debt and potential additional payroll costs would put the new TU into the red to the tune of €26m by 2024/25.

And of course the massive MTU/ITtralee financial difficulties that are set out in the story were never mentioned or acknowleged when thr MTU was announced last week

Yeah fair enough. I'm not arguing with your overall points.

I had never heard of the associate lecturer position. From the Carlow jobs you posted it seems to be related to teaching of childcare or social studies at level 5 rather than level 6 certs and higher. I can't see the salary scales. I presume that they are lower than AL. If so I doubt they can lecture at degree level.

The whole process is political now and based on rationalisation and cost savings. Regional development and academic criteria are an afterthought at best.

CramCycle

Dexpat wrote: »

Yeah fair enough. I'm not arguing with your overall points.

I had never heard of the associate lecturer position. From the Carlow jobs you posted it seems to be related to teaching of childcare or social studies at level 5 rather than level 6 certs and higher. I can't see the salary scales. I presume that they are lower than AL. If so I doubt they can lecture at degree level.

The whole process is political now and based on rationalisation and cost savings. Regional development and academic criteria are an afterthought at best.

I taught level 5, 6, 7 and 8 as an AL. Salary was about €66 an hour when I was at it, I think its €60 now. Salaried AL is between €38k upto €52k. Once salaried there is a number of lecturing hours, prep hours and dependent on the IT a requirement to engage in research or something similar.

I actually found it better for getting suitable staff than the University requirements which could discount experience over union agreed requirements for certain qualifications. It often means HR throw out people with 20 years relevant experience and put forward a freshly graduated PhD for interview.

We had lecturers who built Pharma plants, Qualified Persons, leaders in business and innovation, advisers to various businesses at the highest level. I presume most of them done it for CSR but it was great for the students.

Dexpat

CramCycle wrote: »

I taught level 5, 6, 7 and 8 as an AL. Salary was about €66 an hour when I was at it, I think its €60 now. Salaried AL is between €38k upto €52k. Once salaried there is a number of lecturing hours, prep hours and dependent on the IT a requirement to engage in research or something similar.

I actually found it better for getting suitable staff than the University requirements which could discount experience over union agreed requirements for certain qualifications. It often means HR throw out people with 20 years relevant experience and put forward a freshly graduated PhD for interview.

We had lecturers who built Pharma plants, Qualified Persons, leaders in business and innovation, advisers to various businesses at the highest level. I presume most of them done it for CSR but it was great for the students.

Yeah I knew that ALs can teach up to the highest level as the lecturing grade they are on reflects when they joined the institution, not their experience or abilities.

For some of them it can be difficult to get a permanent position because academica puts more weight on having a masters and PhD rather than on their industry experience. I know someone who took a 50k pay cut for a permanent AL post for the long term quality of life it can give. She will be expected to have a PhD before she has any chance of advancing to a lecturer grade though. She is lecturing to masters level though as managers in her department recognise her experience.

The lowering of the AL salaries for new entrants was another factor making it difficult to get suitable staff.

The associate lecturer grade in Carlow is probably more teaching to level 5 and it doesn't appear on third level salary pay scales so I'm sure it won't be allowed to become the norm elsewhere. I doubt there were too many of them so it probably doesn't explain the differences in finacial positions of WIT compared to Carlow. Different working conditions and other factors highlighted by imacman probably do though.

fits

The associate lecturers in IT Carlow mainly teach the lifelong learning courses in the evenings. At all levels afaik. They wouldn’t be in the union. There is a lot of them. Lifelong learning is huge in IT Carlow

JaCrispy

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The only thing Carlow is good at is cheaping out and grabbing money. They have no care or proper supports for their Autistic students. Because they wont pay for proper lecturers they get what they pay for.

Jesus Christ :rolleyes:

Harry Palmr

Zoom meeting between interested parties just ended.

Main points as spoken by David Cullinane to Deise Today.

4 WAT TD's + 1 WAT Senator + IT presidents present. Dunno why no Carlow TDs present (edit another meeting with Carlow reps will be held later).
Carlow concerned by WIT 7m deficit but that's being addressed.
Memorandum of understanding needed between ITs and the unions - deal supposedly close.
Carlow IT refuse to talk to WLR (just an aside)
3.5m spent on this drawn out saga.

Feels like a clear the air meeting and nothing more.

CramCycle

skooterblue2 wrote: »

There maybe but I never met any of them, most small minded people embroiled in college politics. Money usually attracts quality.

Thats not true at all in regards Universities. Money usually attracts well recognised researchers who have little time for lecturing unless forced as part of their contract. The payscales are not tremendously different between ITs and universities. Universities start at 34k for lecturer and go upto 60k.

There is no scope bar special exemptions for paying out of scale, those who lecture in ITs are typically not much different from Universities in my experience, with the big names divided into two camps, one who does it contractually and is useless, and the other who likes the attention and is quite good at lectures, not so good at teaching.

invara

If the Programme for Government emerges this week, we should finally have some visibility on the proposed future of WIT and higher ed in the SE. All the body language points to a Carlow-Waterford merger, with Carlow as an equal or near equal partner, and little or now funding to expand.

If this is the case, the TU will just be a waymarker and a full university campaign is the next milestone. The TU is a Dublin plan to thwart the emergence of a full university in the region, to protect UCD, UCC etc...

Meanwhile the Government is contemplating the request for a €300-500m bailout from the seven universities. If the SE had a full university, we would be asking for a minimum of 10% of that fund (~€30-50m just for this year)- this bailout is just to get over the COVID bump.

imacman

invara wrote: »

If the Programme for Government emerges this week, we should finally have some visibility on the proposed future of WIT and higher ed in the SE. All the body language points to a Carlow-Waterford merger, with Carlow as an equal or near equal partner, and little or now funding to expand.

If this is the case, the TU will just be a waymarker and a full university campaign is the next milestone. The TU is a Dublin plan to thwart the emergence of a full university in the region, to protect UCD, UCC etc...

Meanwhile the Government is contemplating the request for a €300-500m bailout from the seven universities. If the SE had a full university, we would be asking for a minimum of 10% of that fund (~€30-50m just for this year)- this bailout is just to get over the COVID bump.

Agreed , I fully expect lots of promises to fund the TUSEI which wont materalise after the designation is completed.The government are only interested in giving the Southeast a University name and will quickly lose interest once that is done. In the upcoming recession we will be told the funding will have to be spent on other more important areas like health or housing and the institutes will be told to get on with it as best they can.

fits

invara wrote: »

The TU is a Dublin plan to thwart the emergence of a full university in the region, to protect UCD, UCC.

Do you really believe that? It’s nothing to do with poor third level attendances and lack of skills in the region? I’m amazed at some of the things I am reading here.

azimuth17

fits wrote: »

Do you really believe that? It’s nothing to do with poor third level attendances and lack of skills in the region? I’m amazed at some of the things I am reading here.

If they are so concerned about the skills shortage and third level attendances in the region why do they not go the full hog and deliver a full university rather than one which almost by definition cannot compete with existing universities and their regions? An independent review of WIT in 2005 concluded that it was operating at university level but its application for university designation was never processed. Why was that? Mid West has UL. Mary I and LIT in a region not dissimilar to the south east.

Harry Palmr

fits wrote: »

Do you really believe that? It’s nothing to do with poor third level attendances and lack of skills in the region? I’m amazed at some of the things I am reading here.

Cart and horse anyone?!