Waterford University discussion

Sully

I think a merger with Carlow could be a good idea. Some of their departments and courses are a lot better than what is offered here in WIT. Every year I hear students compare certain departments and courses to that offered in Carlow, and everybody says Carlow offers a much better course.

I wouldn't be comfortable with WIT getting University on their own, and I think a merger is the best way forward not just for the students (which we seem to forget about) but the whole South East.

Psychedelic

You could be right and it could work out even better for us, but I don't agree with your point about Waterford getting its own university. The whole campaign for university status was built upon the strength of WIT and the need for a university in the South East, Carlow IT never came into it until the eleventh hour when FG/Labour included the Technological University of the South East in their programme for government.

MitchKoobski

WIT would not be able to handle being a University on its own.

Both techs have their advantages so combining the two just seems the better plan.

djpbarry

mecco wrote: »

The point moreso is that it's to the economic detriment of the region to not have a "top tier" (for want of a better term) institution...

But the point is I'm just not convinced that "top tier" necessitates "university". You only have to look at the plethora of universities here in the UK to see that.

mecco wrote: »

If by this you refer to taxpayers, then surely seeming as taxpayers in all regions are contributing, then taxpayers in all regions should benefit equitably?

Well, to be honest, I think it's unfair that taxpayers who don't go to university have to cough up for those who do, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Psychedelic wrote: »

The Goodbody Report on the Economic Impact of a University of the South East (2005) said that up to €96m would be generated in the region if WIT was made a university.

I'm looking at that report right now and I can't see any mention of that figure?

Psychedelic

MitchKoobski wrote: »

WIT would not be able to handle being a University on its own.

Both techs have their advantages so combining the two just seems the better plan.

The Dr Port Report said it would be.

djpbarry wrote: »

But the point is I'm just not convinced that "top tier" necessitates "university". You only have to look at the plethora of universities here in the UK to see that.
Well, to be honest, I think it's unfair that taxpayers who don't go to university have to cough up for those who do, but that's a discussion for another thread.
I'm looking at that report right now and I can't see any mention of that figure?

Page vi - the figure is actually €97.6m

mecco

djpbarry wrote: »

But the point is I'm just not convinced that "top tier" necessitates "university". You only have to look at the plethora of universities here in the UK to see that.

TBH, I personally don't mind if the upgrade makes WIT a university or a technological university or any name you want for it, as long as it isn't simply a political sop. It needs to get this region represented at the aforementioned top tier. I would argue that, by and large, it is currently operating at this top tier but it's equally importantly to be recognised as being a top tier institution, both within and outside the region. With the way IT's currently exist and are viewed in this country, WIT is restricted from doing this.

As an aside, maybe there is a potential positive to be being a technological university. If WIT can excel and distinguish itself in all areas technological, we might see a brain influx into the region for the first time. Play to our strengths and all that.

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, to be honest, I think it's unfair that taxpayers who don't go to university have to cough up for those who do, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Definitely a different thread and maybe your idealogy/theory is right, I certainly don't know, but in practice they are and as I said previously, I just feel our region is currently at a disadvantage.

djpbarry

Psychedelic wrote: »

Page vi - the figure is actually €97.6m

Ok, I see it now. So that’s €97.6 million, up from about €65.5 million. However, some of the assumptions made to arrive at that figure are optimistic to say the least (undergraduate student numbers are projected to increase by 40%, for example) and little or no justification for these assumptions is given. I would also say that including items such as “research expenditure” in this assessment is not exactly rigorous for two reasons. Firstly, research in Ireland is almost entirely publicly funded. Secondly, very little of that research expenditure will be spent in the south east of Ireland.

One of the principle justifications for the increased economic impact is a greater focus on R&D in the new university. That’s fine, I just don’t understand why re-branding as a university is necessary in order to have a greater focus on R&D?

Nolanger

Where are all these Waterford University graduates going to find work, the local call centre?

fricatus

Nolanger wrote: »

Where are all these Waterford University graduates going to find work, the local call centre?

The same place WIT graduates get work these days... Australia!

Seriously though, one of the main reasons put forward for having a university is that the IDA etc. would be in a better position to sell the region to foreign investors if there was a university here. This was quoted in Tueseday's report in the Irish Times:

The Irish Times wrote:

After the collapse of the TalkTalk call centre with the loss of 575 jobs in October, Mr Hogan and IDA chief executive Barry O’Leary argued that a university in the southeast could transform the region’s troubled economy.

Nolanger

A bit like the new expensive railway system in the West of Ireland that carries no passengers but will no doubt develop the region

fricatus

Nolanger wrote: »

A bit like the new expensive railway system in the West of Ireland that carries no passengers but will no doubt develop the region

You may sneer, but the difference is that there are a quarter of a million people within 45 minutes of Waterford who could do with having access to top-tier education.

It's a bit more than "build it and they will come". It's more like "build it for f**k's sake, we've been waiting here for 40 years!"

Sully

In the event it does fail though, I wonder what the complaint will be. If the government set it up in the South East, including Waterford as a main hub, and it does nothing extra beneficial -- the government delivered on a request. Whats the fault? Will the usual tradition of blaming the government kick in or will it be a simply be an admission "We got it wrong"?

nkay1985

Sully wrote: »

In the event it does fail though, I wonder what the complaint will be. If the government set it up in the South East, including Waterford as a main hub, and it does nothing extra beneficial -- the government delivered on a request. Whats the fault? Will the usual tradition of blaming the government kick in or will it be a simply be an admission "We got it wrong"?

But sure that won't be able to be judged until after this government's term, possibly well after. If it falls through, the obvious complaint will be that they didn't deliver on a promise. If they deliver the technological university, then they'll have come through on what's in the program for government but it could still be done badly. If there's a fault with the new setup, who do you propose would be at fault?

Sully

nkay1985 wrote: »

But sure that won't be able to be judged until after this government's term, possibly well after. If it falls through, the obvious complaint will be that they didn't deliver on a promise. If they deliver the technological university, then they'll have come through on what's in the program for government but it could still be done badly. If there's a fault with the new setup, who do you propose would be at fault?

Wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't done right tbh, but if it was. A lot of people think it wont make a difference to the South East. Just idle thought really.

merlante

Sully wrote: »

I think a merger with Carlow could be a good idea. Some of their departments and courses are a lot better than what is offered here in WIT. Every year I hear students compare certain departments and courses to that offered in Carlow, and everybody says Carlow offers a much better course.

I wouldn't be comfortable with WIT getting University on their own, and I think a merger is the best way forward not just for the students (which we seem to forget about) but the whole South East.

That's pure speculation and anecdotal evidence in fairness. I'm pretty sure, without going to the bother of digging up figures, that WIT staff are better qualified and WIT has more demand for students, which should add up to higher standards in general.

Your statement that you "wouldn't be comfortable with WIT getting University on their own" is bizarre in the extreme, as if WIT and Carlow were perfect compliments of each other, just waiting for the day when they'd come together to become a university. This is hardly the case, and will result in the loss of an IoT to the region in exchange for something that will initially not fully equate to a one of the 7 existing universities. So the south east remains at a loss if Carlow is brought into the mix. And with Carlow in, certain metrics of the resulting university are likely to go down. Do you think there is any chance at all that you might just be playing the party tune here?

We'll welcome the merger with open arms, because it's progress, but it's highly unlikely to improve quality and will almost certainly have far reaching political consequences, and if not handled correctly, will have the counties of the region even more at each other's throats than they have been previously. How in the name of god are they going to divvy up the courses to everyone's satisfaction, and will we end up with two lopsided campuses where the twain never meet, or alternate years in different campuses! The sensible option would be for Carlow to handle certs and diplomas/ordinary degrees and feed the Waterford campus, but will that happen? Probably not.

Note the The Kilkenny Advertiser article, University status for the southeast in final stages. Looks kind of strange in that Carlow is always mentioned before WIT, as if both IoTs are on a par. The reality, that WIT will be the core and strongest part of any technological university, is something that our neighbours are happy to overlook, especially with big Phil in the driving seat. So whilst I'm delighted that a university will be delivered for the region, and while the proposal is an infinitely better idea than a merger with Cork IT, saying that the circumstances are ideal is ridiculous. Fact is, this merger is only to get the whole thing sold in Dublin: the technological university will only happen on the back of two IoTs being given up in the exchange (resulting in net one less institution).

Sully

Your a bit biased merlante, you work/worked for WIT.

Nobody is saying that Carlow is superior to WIT. But in many courses and some departments, they are.

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Your a bit biased merlante, you work/worked for WIT.

Nobody is saying that Carlow is superior to WIT. But in many courses and some departments, they are.

No, I don't.

Why not answer my points about your comment that you "wouldn't be comfortable with WIT getting University on their own"?

Sully

Sorry, perhaps I was mistaken. I wont comment further as to protect your privacy.

As for my comment re:WIT. Funnily enough a lot of WIT Students are divided on the University issue for WIT. I am unsure if WIT would really be a very good University on its own, and merging with other smaller successful colleges might strengthen its position and offer an even better class of service and education.

There are departments and course in WIT that are very weak, despite being new. A lot of courses in WIT will clash with Carlow. WIT is stronger in some departments and courses while Carlow is far superior to WIT in other areas. If WIT went it alone, it means perhaps an improved lecturing experience and more funding to improve services but I cant see it addressing some of the backend areas and courses which are simply poorly designed and not run correctly.

nkay1985

I still find it amazing that we're going to merge with Carlow. It really came out of left field, didn't it? Even with the motorway, we're still quite far apart. I wonder how they're planning on doing it? I wonder do they even have a plan for it?

dayshah

Sully wrote: »

Carlow is far superior to WIT in other areas.

Which areas?

A merger with carlow won't work, its just too far away. To save money the government can merge cit and ucc. We have a chance for a rrally good campus if the waterford crystal site is bought.

Anyway, the case that has to be made is how i it good for the country, not us. No one else cares about the €97 million that we would benefit. How much dole.money would be saved if we got it and tax generated?

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Sorry, perhaps I was mistaken. I wont comment further as to protect your privacy.

As for my comment re:WIT. Funnily enough a lot of WIT Students are divided on the University issue for WIT. I am unsure if WIT would really be a very good University on its own, and merging with other smaller successful colleges might strengthen its position and offer an even better class of service and education.

There are departments and course in WIT that are very weak, despite being new. A lot of courses in WIT will clash with Carlow. WIT is stronger in some departments and courses while Carlow is far superior to WIT in other areas. If WIT went it alone, it means perhaps an improved lecturing experience and more funding to improve services but I cant see it addressing some of the backend areas and courses which are simply poorly designed and not run correctly.

While there may be specific areas that Carlow beats WIT in -- which remains to be properly evaluated -- HEA metrics, such as % staff with PhDs, publication metrics, etc., would likely be lower across the board in an amalgamation. Masters and PhD students as a % of the student body would be much lower. These some of criteria have been mentioned as criteria for upgrade.

The other obvious point is that there will be no IoT in the south east in addition to the university, so it's not like nothing is lost.

merlante

nkay1985 wrote: »

I still find it amazing that we're going to merge with Carlow. It really came out of left field, didn't it? Even with the motorway, we're still quite far apart. I wonder how they're planning on doing it? I wonder do they even have a plan for it?

It's part of the proposal for a university of the south east, which was always about Waterford and Carlow ITs. It's a good idea to keep it in the region. I personally think that the best/only good way of doing this is make Carlow a feeder for Waterford but I can't see it flying politically.

The point of the merger is that the government can sell it to the education elites and the tax payer by saying 'ah sure the upgrade won't cost much straight away and sure look, don't we have one less institute of technology'.

By the way, just to be clear, I'd take this deal in a heartbeat if it is/was the only deal on the table.

Nolanger

Waterford needs to build its own IFSC for computer/technology companies. Otherwise those graduates from the new university will leave the city for good. Also, when the points go up for this new university where will the Waterford school leavers with 200 points go? A lot of current WIT student wouldn't have enough points to get into this new Waterford Uni.

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

Waterford needs to build its own IFSC for computer/technology companies. Otherwise those graduates from the new university will leave the city for good. Also, when the points go up for this new university where will the Waterford school leavers with 200 points go? A lot of current WIT student wouldn't have enough points to get into this new Waterford Uni.

Firstly, I wouldn't assume that there would be much 'improvement' in quality, in computing, which is already a strong area in WIT, probably on a par with many of the existing universities. Numbers probably would go up a little bit as people become more confident of getting a top tier education after the upgrade, but I don't think you're talking about 2/3 times the number of graduates, just maybe a 30% increase over a few years. You'll probably get a natural increase one way or the other with IT being so hot at the moment. Plenty of jobs in this sector, even jobs going in Waterford.

Secondly, technological universities will almost certainly have to maintain certificate and diploma/ordinary degree programmes, which will have lower entry requirements. It will effectively be a technological university and an institute of technology (as-we-know-it-in-Ireland -- NOT MIT/Caltech) rolled into one.

In general, I'm not going to shed too many tears if standards rise, and 200 points isin't enough to get into certain courses. 200 points is a pretty weak level for areas like computing or engineering, and maybe it's not fair to admit people at that level anyway, if they are likely to struggle. College is not for everyone. But I suspect that most people would be capable of hitting 300+ points if they worked really hard for their leaving cert.

Nolanger

They're going to have to offer a degree in Computer science and not just courses like Applied computing and Information technology. A computer science degree is what distinguishes a university from an institute of technology. A course like this usually requires honours maths in the leaving cert. Most students with 200 to 300 points wouldn't even get into second year doing a computer science degree. This is the standard a 'University of technology' requires.

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

They're going to have to offer a degree in Computer science and not just courses like Applied computing and Information technology. A computer science degree is what distinguishes a university from an institute of technology. A course like this usually requires honours maths in the leaving cert. Most students with 200 to 300 points wouldn't even get into second year doing a computer science degree. This is the standard a 'University of technology' requires.

I'm not convinced that there is a substantial difference between computer science courses and applied computing/computer applications courses, content-wise or quality-wise. Maybe there should be, but I don't think there is. Maybe the latter courses are a bit more applied, but only marginally so, and that's arguably a good thing. DCU, for one, do computer applications, and have never been tempted to "upgrade" to computer science. Engineering always looks for a higher C3 in Maths but I've never heard of it in the sciences. And that C3 requirements only exists because courses want IEI accreditation.

The overall point, though, which we seem to agree on, is that students studying computing coming in with 200 points are in for a world of pain *unless* they really didn't bother their arse for the leaving cert. In any case, I doubt that it would be significantly easier to get a computing degree in WIT than a computer science degree elsewhere, particularly a 2.1 or higher.

Nolanger

Those computer courses are dumbed down degrees for second-rate colleges. No wonder there are so many IT jobs available in this country that can't be filled. Ever wonder why? Because most of these jobs require a level similar to the standard of computer science graduates. Practically every IT employer/agency/bank would rate a "computer science" degree over a ****ty Information technology/Multimedia applications/Applied computing degree.

Grindylow

@Nolanger

No computer science degree in Ireland requires a HC3. You can get into all of them with ordinary level maths.

Nolanger

@grindylow - our top uni requires honours maths for computer science entry
http://www.scss.tcd.ie/assets/resources/bacsl-brochure.pdf

Grindylow

Nolanger wrote: »

@grindylow - our top uni requires honours maths for computer science entry
http://www.scss.tcd.ie/assets/resources/bacsl-brochure.pdf

TCD is regarded as one of the worst unis to do computer science in actually, their facilities are lacking behind what other unis where that requirement doesn't stand.

dayshah

Look, this isn't a WIT issue. There are courses that should be maths intensive across the country, but the universities and ITs dumb them down to make them more attractive to students (and less attractive to employers). This is one reason why we need to attract so many foreigners to do these jobs (another being that we need native tongue foreign language speakers for lots of roles in a European HQ).

There is a fairly easy solution, give double points for maths (at least for science and engineering subjects).

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

Those computer courses are dumbed down degrees for second-rate colleges. No wonder there are so many IT jobs available in this country that can't be filled. Ever wonder why? Because most of these jobs require a level similar to the standard of computer science graduates. Practically every IT employer/agency/bank would rate a "computer science" degree over a ****ty Information technology/Multimedia applications/Applied computing degree.

That's nonsense. I know plenty of people who have done engineering and subjects like physics and work in computer jobs. It's rarely a problem for employers. Actual computer science, as in Turing, Dijkstra, etc., is not important for 99% of all computer jobs. Besides, computer 'science' isn't a science anyway because it's not empirical, philosophy of computing or computational logic would be more like it, and put like that, you can see that few employers are interested in these 'skills'. Really employers are looking for software engineering, and that is usually picked up quickly by people with technical degrees, although the area is probably getting more specialised over time. I have never heard anyone make this distinction between computer science and applications that you are making, and I have worked in the area for years.

What a bank would make out of your argument I don't know. I think they'd just be happy with someone who could do the job. I know for a fact that even self-taught web programmers are being hired in Waterford right now.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Look, this isn't a WIT issue. There are courses that should be maths intensive across the country, but the universities and ITs dumb them down to make them more attractive to students (and less attractive to employers). This is one reason why we need to attract so many foreigners to do these jobs (another being that we need native tongue foreign language speakers for lots of roles in a European HQ).

There is a fairly easy solution, give double points for maths (at least for science and engineering subjects).

This is very true. The universities and IoTs will do anything for get students and anything to keep them. It's pretty pathetic. That's why they constantly undertake missions to China. There seems to be a bizarre disconnect between what happens at the leaving cert and 3rd level at the moment, with the decline of maths. I can't understand it. Maths was always a good way to get points if you were good at it, rather than having to learn off a biology book or something.

We don't actually have to do anything with the points, which, in many/most cases, are indirectly controlled by colleges anyway, by dynamically altering the 'places available' to suit incoming demand in order to set a points entry point. There is also matriculation. You can actually say, as they do in engineering, that you need a minimum HC3 in maths (requirement of IEI). But they won't do it because the numbers coming in would collapse. As it is, colleges are doing everything they possibly can to provide alternative entry routes for those without the HC3 in engineering. The excuse they give is that students may not have realised at the time what they were giving up by doing pass, say, but really, it's dumbing down to prop up numbers. I doubt any IoT or university is completely immune to these problems except maybe TCD, who I think have capped their numbers.

Nolanger

A uni isn't judged on the number of graduates who get a job. It's about the research they do, publishing papers, and having highly qualified staff with PHDs which WIT is has a shortage. Waterford uni will have to move away from these silly computing courses and move into areas like computer science. It's not about 'education for all' or having dumbed down pass rates anymore . Merlante you're talking rubbish if you think companies are just interested in self-taught web developers. No respectable university's computer department would teach that stuff anyway. That's for FÁS/Solas.

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

A uni isn't judged on the number of graduates who get a job. It's about the research they do, publishing papers, and having highly qualified staff with PHDs which WIT is has a shortage. Waterford uni will have to move away from these silly computing courses and move into areas like computer science. It's not about 'education for all' or having dumbed down pass rates anymore . Merlante you're talking rubbish if you think companies are just interested in self-taught web developers. No respectable university's computer department would teach that stuff anyway. That's for FÁS/Solas.

Firstly, this is not the economy to be picky. Anything at all out of a packet of cornflakes will get you some kind of a job in web programming. There is no recession in IT.

Secondly, I mentioned that DCU has a Computer Applications course. DCU does serious research, and the CA course teaches computer science, just with a supposedly applied focus -- but as I said, there's basically no difference.

Thirdly, universities are about teaching as well as research, plain and simple.

Companies are not looking for people who can't code, and all too often "computer scientists", and other applied computing graduates, are completely inept when they leave college and require significant on the job training. There is little or no demand for extra "science" just people who can write software.

Max Powers

Irish Times 23/1/12
ANY GOVERNMENT plan to establish a new university in the southeast makes no sense when the current system is seriously underfunded and battling for its survival, according to the seven university presidents.
In a confidential discussion paper – due to be considered by the college heads this morning – the presidents warn it would be “reckless” to pursue radical changes to higher education “when the survival of the system is under threat”.
The document – seen by The Irish Times – says any change to the higher education system must recognise “the very poor and deteriorating financial position” of the university sector. The establishment of new technological universities will only “give rise to additional costs and fragmentation of research”.
Several college heads are expected to voice their anger about the proposed new technological university (TU) for the southeast at their meeting in DCU this morning. Both Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan and Minister for Public Service Expenditure and Reform Brendan Howlin are backing moves which would merge the institutes of technology in Waterford and Carlow and establish a new technological university of the southeast.
One senior university figure said yesterday: “This whole process is being driven by local politics instead of education priorities; we cannot allow it to happen.”
However, supporters in the southeast, who have campaigned for a university for over a decade, say the move could reinvigorate the troubled local economy.
The Higher Education Authority will shortly finalise new criteria governing the establishment of a TU. Once these are approved by Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn, the institutes in Waterford and Carlow will apply for TU status.
In the Dáil last week Mr Quinn stressed that rigorous criteria would apply. “There will be no political interference from my department or me on that matter, otherwise we will devalue the entire third-level sector in this country.”
In their paper the presidents say there is “no persuasive evidence that the demand for quality, advanced technical education cannot be met within the existing system of seven universities and 14 institutes of technology”.
It says a significant “re-engineering” would be required to bring many ITs up to the standard expected of universities or highly regarded technological universities in other countries.
The research paper points to the relatively low number of PhD students in the institutes when compared to the university sector. It acknowledges, however, that Waterford IT, Cork IT and DIT are different from other institutes in terms of both overall scale and involvement in research and graduate education.
The presidents stress how the funding crisis is the most important issue facing the sector in delivering on its internal goals and on external expectations.
“We know that the system is seriously underfunded. Within the system, there are indications that the IoT sector is relatively better funded than the universities. Therefore, any plans to establish new universities cannot result in a further hollowing out or cannibalisation of university funding.
“This issue needs to be addressed at an early stage with detailed, costed plans for any structural changes and transparency on how [and from what sources] those plans are to be resourced.”
The paper points out how current funding for universities is set to fall by a cumulative 6 per cent to 2015, despite record student demand. There is no indication, it says, that any additional increases in the student charge – if they are introduced – will do any more than offset reductions in exchequer funding.
“It follows that priority must be given to the survival of the system, so policy needs to address this first. Any changes which are introduced need to demonstrably add value. Even before this they must pass the test of first doing no harm to the existing system.”
The paper also suggests there may not be sufficient students with the skills in maths and the sciences to fill courses in any new technological universities. Addressing this issue may require the introduction of points floors for particular courses and/or more rigorous subject specific requirements, it says.
One university president said: “We are not opposed to new universities per se, but they must be a clear economic and social case – and the funding issue must be addressed.”
The paper was prepared by the Irish Universities Association for the HEA.

merlante

All politics. It's vested interests from the south east versus vested interests in the university sector, with no referee. Other countries with proper planning would never have allowed this issue to develop in the first place, and would have planned a more equitable distribution of university education.

Anyway, there is an amusing jumble of complaints in there, including,

"We know that the system is seriously underfunded. Within the system, there are indications that the IoT sector is relatively better funded than the universities. Therefore, any plans to establish new universities cannot result in a further hollowing out or cannibalisation of university funding."

So here we have university heads -- and/or Sean Flynn of the Irish Times -- on the one hand telling us that universities are cheaper to run than IoTs, and on the other hand implying that abolishing 2 IoTs and creating a university would be a cannibalisation of university funding.

This is the mindset of the greedy pigs at the trough not wanting to share, momentarily oblivious to the fact that the new pig is bringing more than his share of the food with him.

In their terror of having more competition in the university sector, they forget that a merging of WIT and Carlow IT and an upgrade to technological university represents a transfer of wealth from the IoT to the university sector. In fact, according to them, a disproportionate transfer of wealth, since IoTs are supposedly more expensive to run.

If and when these two IoTs merge and upgrade, expect the tune to change rapidly from "we don't want another university" to "ah, that university is not the same as us, we're on another level and deserve prioritisation". Both are shameless money arguments.

mike65

I'm just shocked that CIT hasn't issued a statement demanding a reconfiguration to University status.

edit Anyone listening to RTE radio?

jmcc

Max Powers wrote: »

Irish Times 23/1/12
ANY GOVERNMENT plan to establish a new university in the southeast makes no sense when the current system is seriously underfunded and battling for its survival, according to the seven university presidents.

I'm sure that in the interests of the economy these seven dwarves will have their salaries cut by half and the savings donated to funding the universities. Let's see how they whinge then!

Regards...jmcc

djpbarry

Nolanger wrote: »

They're going to have to offer a degree in Computer science and not just courses like Applied computing and Information technology. A computer science degree is what distinguishes a university from an institute of technology.

DIT offer a degree course in computer science.

djpbarry

merlante wrote: »

The sensible option would be for Carlow to handle certs and diplomas/ordinary degrees and feed the Waterford campus, but will that happen?

Seems to me that would result in a serious duplication of resources?

merlante wrote: »

Engineering always looks for a higher C3 in Maths but I've never heard of it in the sciences. And that C3 requirements only exists because courses want IEI accreditation.

No, that requirement exists because anyone without honours leaving cert maths is going to struggle in an engineering degree course. It used to be that the minimum requirement was a B3.

merlante wrote: »

Actual computer science, as in Turing, Dijkstra, etc., is not important for 99% of all computer jobs.

I think that probably depends on what you mean by “computer jobs”. I dare say that, given the choice, the likes of Google would be leaning more towards somebody who is familiar with the Turing Test versus someone who can do a bit of PHP.

merlante

djpbarry wrote: »

Seems to me that would result in a serious duplication of resources?

Less of a duplication than two separate IoTs, but yes, there would be some duplication. The alternative is a kind of bipolar institution where course areas are divvied out to Waterford and Carlow and the two never meet, which I think compromises an institution. I don't think there is a perfect solution to this problem.

djpbarry wrote: »

No, that requirement exists because anyone without honours leaving cert maths is going to struggle in an engineering degree course. It used to be that the minimum requirement was a B3.

Having worked in an electronic engineering dept in a university, I know the lengths colleges are going to to bypass this perfectly sane C3 requirement, which probably should be higher. It's there for accreditation, because the IEI, at least, seem to hold themselves to a higher ethical standard than the universities who will do anything to increase intake. But I agree with you, engineering is very challenging.

djpbarry wrote: »

I think that probably depends on what you mean by “computer jobs”. I dare say that, given the choice, the likes of Google would be leaning more towards somebody who is familiar with the Turing Test versus someone who can do a bit of PHP.

Well those are fairly extreme ends of the spectrum. Google would be more than happy with any computer applications graduate if they were any good and had good ideas (and satisfied whatever other faddish requirements a company has when it earns revenue automatically from mouse clicks).

Nolanger

Computer applications graduates are only useful if there are plenty of local companies looking for yellow-pack progammers. If Waterford wants to have a lasting local industry in technology then they need computer scientists who can set up new companies creating the next generation of software applications. Most of these people will need honours maths in the LC.

Bards

and so it begins, One for everyone in the audience

We will be back to square one again when WRTC was upgraded to WIT all the RTC's became IT's overnight thanks to CRTC insisting that it become CIT

extract from http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672113.html

Five more institutes of technology in the Border, Midlands and West (BMW) region said they were at an “advanced stage’’ of discussions regarding the establishment of a technological university.

Given Government approval, they say a Border Midlands West Technological University (BMW TU) would create the largest higher education institution in the State with 27,000 students. A steering group comprising senior staff at Athlone Institute of Technology (AIT), Dundalk Institute of Technology, Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology, Letterkenny Institute of Technology and Institute of Technology, Sligo, is directing the negotiations.

mike65

Apparently its been in the works for 10 years, but I've certainly never seen/heard it mentioned before today. Stand by for a Limerick/Cork announcement.

ToxicPaddy

Yup, back to a one for everyone in the audience as previously said.

The only thing going to change are the signs on the outside of the buildings, the letter heads and their websites. Everything else will remain the same, typical bloody country.

Oooooooh lets rename it and no one will know the difference :rolleyes: :mad:

O Riain

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

Yup, back to a one for everyone in the audience as previously said.

The only thing going to change are the signs on the outside of the buildings, the letter heads and their websites. Everything else will remain the same, typical bloody country.

Oooooooh lets rename it and no one will know the difference :rolleyes: :mad:

I genuinely think that one of the critera will be that there be no university already serving the area(asside from dublin). This would put the midlands in a very inbetween situation. I guess another one will have to be that there is a main institution with student numbers comparable to a university. If they simply rename it and do nothing then there will be uproar but they are going to make sure that nobody else gets one as the funding just isnt there.

Psychedelic

You'd like to think that the ministers and people deciding the criteria for a technological university will have seen this coming a mile away and will set the criteria so that's impossible for the smaller ITs to get TU status. If those ITs can end up getting TU status then the whole thing is just a farce.

Professey Chin

Guramoogah wrote: »

If, not when, but if any form of University of the SouthEast were to be created then the headquarters would surely be located in Kilkenny. Waterford and Carlow ITs are 70km apart. Under the Croke Park Agreement, redeployment of staff is limited to 45km so therefore Kilkenny would be the logical location for the headquarters. WIT, Carlow IT and a location in Wexford would become regional outposts.

But theres nothing in Kilkenny so that makes no sense.

Hey....whered that post go >_>

There we go. Damn time travel

Guramoogah

If, not when, but if any form of University of the SouthEast were to be created then the headquarters would surely be located in Kilkenny. Waterford and Carlow ITs are 70km apart. Under the Croke Park Agreement, redeployment of staff is limited to 45km so therefore Kilkenny would be the logical location for the headquarters. WIT, Carlow IT and a location in Wexford would become regional outposts.

It would be a big feather in Phil Hogan's cap to have all the administration staff located in Kilkenny, and Brendan Howlin would be glad to be able to create a third-level establishment in Wexford to go along with the VEC headquarters. It's got sweet FA to do with education, it's all to do with ministers trying to safeguard their seats in the next general election.