Waterford University discussion

wellboytoo

Bards wrote: »

Is there a Journalism course in WIT, or is it something that is limited to the Universities?

Where do most of the reporters/editors etc. from the established media in Ireland graduate from?

The gutter.

Daysha

Bards wrote: »

Is there a Journalism course in WIT, or is it something that is limited to the Universities?

Where do most of the reporters/editors etc. from the established media in Ireland graduate from?

Journalism is unfortunately very Dublin-centric. Both DCU and DIT do journo undergrads and postgrads while Griffith College, Ballyfermot and Dublin Business School all offer various full-time level 8 courses. It's consistently one of their biggest pulls as well. You'll find the vast majority of journalism graduates from around the country did study in the capital at some point in time.

wellboytoo wrote: »

The gutter.

:rolleyes:

MitchKoobski

If there was a Journalism course in WIT, I wouldn't be sitting in a call centre right now.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

Having said that, the London School of Economics and Politics Science is an exception to your rule on the full breadth of subjects being available at universities. LSE specialises in certain areas (guess which? ). In Irish law, the restricted scope is a matter of law with IoTs rather than choice.

I thought the LSE was part of a different university, like university of london (similarly to how UCD is part of the NUI).

Sully

MitchKoobski wrote: »

If there was a Journalism course in WIT, I wouldn't be sitting in a call centre right now.

Eh? Go to a different college if you want to do Journalism. A call centre job isn't a "safe" job and should really only be used as a part time thing to cover costs of stuff like college.

sunnysoutheast

dayshah wrote: »

I thought the LSE was part of a different university, like university of london (similarly to how UCD is part of the NUI).

Yes, pretty much, the University of London is federation of individual colleges so you study at LSE or Goldsmith's for example but your degree is actually awarded by the University of London. I went to Imperial College, which left the UofL relatively recently and started awarding its own degrees

On the original topic, my view is that the UoSE should focus on engineering, computing and technology and that would hopefully be a competitive advantage for the SE region. There's more than enough graduates around who've staggered out of Uni with useless arts or media degrees.

SSE

MitchKoobski

Sully wrote: »

Eh? Go to a different college if you want to do Journalism. A call centre job isn't a "safe" job and should really only be used as a part time thing to cover costs of stuff like college.

My point being the cost, of both living and study in a university. If there was one in WIT I could study while living at home/working part-time. "Go to a different college" doesn't always work.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

I thought the LSE was part of a different university, like university of london (similarly to how UCD is part of the NUI).

It is but the colleges tend to be taken separately for rating purposes. Also the colleges seem to have the power to leave the University of London, which Imperial choose to do a few years back.

Although I suppose you could say that many of the colleges do tackle different niches and so it might more sense if they were viewed collectively. I'd say there's just not quite enough communication and collaboration between the colleges for them all to be viewed and rated as one.

One of the problems with LSE is that it always appeared way down the rating lists because it didn't have the full range of courses.

merlante

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

On the original topic, my view is that the UoSE should focus on engineering, computing and technology and that would hopefully be a competitive advantage for the SE region. There's more than enough graduates around who've staggered out of Uni with useless arts or media degrees.

I don't mind the idea of a UoSE focussing of science and engineering, but the arts are far from useless. There's more to life than preparing robots for high tech assembly lines. And anyway, there's a little bit too much unquestioning obedience to governments, financial markets, business, etc, as it is. A little more critical thinking might not go astray, which is what you get from social science, philosophy, etc.

dayshah

MitchKoobski wrote: »

My point being the cost, of both living and study in a university. If there was one in WIT I could study while living at home/working part-time. "Go to a different college" doesn't always work.

You shouldn't do journalism as an undergrad. If you want to be a business journalist you should do a BBS degree, and then a journalism HDip/Masters or if you want to be a politics journalist study politics and the do the HDip/Masters.

There are some journalists who never studied what they write about, and I consider a lot of them to be ignorant maggots.

merlante

FYI: WIT upgrade and university for the south east social media (twitter) tagging suggestions.

jmcc

merlante wrote: »

I don't mind the idea of a UoSE focussing of science and engineering, but the arts are far from useless. There's more to life than preparing robots for high tech assembly lines. And anyway, there's a little bit too much unquestioning obedience to governments, financial markets, business, etc, as it is. A little more critical thinking might not go astray, which is what you get from social science, philosophy, etc.

The problem is that there are too many production line courses for people who are not smart enough for technology, science and mathematics and too damned few for technology, science and mathematics. That's where Waterford should excel. I regard Social Science as a soft science (really it is a pseudo-science using the Scientific Method to make itself seem important) rather than a hard science. Ireland needs more techies, scientists and mathematicians.

Regards...jmcc

merlante

jmcc wrote: »

The problem is that there are too many production line courses for people who are not smart enough for technology, science and mathematics and too damned few for technology, science and mathematics. That's where Waterford should excel. I regard Social Science as a soft science (really it is a pseudo-science using the Scientific Method to make itself seem important) rather than a hard science. Ireland needs more techies, scientists and mathematicians.

Not sure I agree with that. There seems to be far more avenues for pursuing technical courses in this country. Most IoTs and universities will have Computing and Engineering courses, but how many have Sociology courses? There are engineering courses in this country that you can get into with less than 300 points despite Engineering being extremely challenging. (In the 2011 CAO, you could get into a Mechatronic Engineering degree in IT Blanchardstown with 200 points!) Looking at Sociology, there tends to be fewer courses, they tend to be in the universities and they tend to have higher points. So, if you want to complain about the social sciences, you could say that they distract people from science and engineering, etc.

Regarding social science being soft. Qualitative social science could be regarded as having a very loose scientific method, but there is hard scientific, quantitative social science as well, which utilise advanced statistical techniques. At least in the social sciences, they are aware of where they are 'soft' and understand the scientific method and the limits of research methodologies very well. Most engineers and scientists have only a loose grasp of the scientific method because they dive straight into the detail. As long as planes still fly, nobody cares.

Anyway... moving a bit off topic here...

jmcc

merlante wrote: »

Not sure I agree with that.

You don't have to. But it is the reality of the situation.

There seems to be far more avenues for pursuing technical courses in this country. Most IoTs and universities will have Computing and Engineering courses, but how many have Sociology courses?

Ireland needs technologists, scientists and mathematicians. It doesn't need more sociologists.

There are engineering courses in this country that you can get into with less than 300 points despite Engineering being extremely challenging. (In the 2011 CAO, you could get into a Mechatronic Engineering degree in IT Blanchardstown with 200 points!)

Just about anyone can do sociology. That's why there is competition for the places. Not everyone can do technology.

Looking at Sociology, there tends to be fewer courses, they tend to be in the universities and they tend to have higher points. So, if you want to complain about the social sciences, you could say that they distract people from science and engineering, etc.

The people who do Social Science aren't able to do technology/science/maths. The system itself is screwed up from primary level upwards. It is geared toward perpetuating mediocrity rather than helping accelerate brilliance.

Regarding social science being soft. Qualitative social science could be regarded as having a very loose scientific method, but there is hard scientific, quantitative social science as well, which utilise advanced statistical techniques.

Mathcad and Excel are great, aren't they?

At least in the social sciences, they are aware of where they are 'soft' and understand the scientific method and the limits of research methodologies very well.

You could say the same about Astrology.

Most engineers and scientists have only a loose grasp of the scientific method because they dive straight into the detail. As long as planes still fly, nobody cares.

Well if engineers and scientists get it wrong, that plane drops out of the sky.

Anyway... moving a bit off topic here...

A Technical University is probably the best bet for Waterfod - that's not a Social Science university.

Regards...jmcc

merlante

jmcc wrote: »

You don't have to. But it is the reality of the situation.

Ireland needs technologists, scientists and mathematicians. It doesn't need more sociologists.

Just about anyone can do sociology. That's why there is competition for the places. Not everyone can do technology.

The people who do Social Science aren't able to do technology/science/maths. The system itself is screwed up from primary level upwards. It is geared toward perpetuating mediocrity rather than helping accelerate brilliance.

Mathcad and Excel are great, aren't they?

You could say the same about Astrology.

Well if engineers and scientists get it wrong, that plane drops out of the sky.

A Technical University is probably the best bet for Waterfod - that's not a Social Science university.

Regards...jmcc

Pretty much wrong on every point there. Except for the part about if engineers get it wrong the plane drops out of the sky. But like I said, I'm not opposed to a university for the south east having a technical focus so I'm not going to argue with you.

phelo2121

So if it does become a technological uni will the humanities side be left the same, developed, phased out?

merlante

phelo2121 wrote: »

So if it does become a technological uni will the humanities side be left the same, developed, phased out?

I'd say it would tick along quietly in the background, like it's doing now. Can't imagine remit being any more restrictive than it is currently under the IoT remit.

sunnysoutheast

merlante wrote: »

I don't mind the idea of a UoSE focussing of science and engineering, but the arts are far from useless. There's more to life than preparing robots for high tech assembly lines. And anyway, there's a little bit too much unquestioning obedience to governments, financial markets, business, etc, as it is. A little more critical thinking might not go astray, which is what you get from social science, philosophy, etc.

I'm not saying the arts are useless, far from it, but the simple fact is that degrees in those subjects are not as valued by employers.

The rationale for upgrading and developing WIT, which will be in the teeth of huge opposition from various vested interests, into the UoSE is to act as a catalyst for the economic development of this region. The simple fact is that a focus on business and technology courses will create far more jobs and opportunities - smart computing, business process outsourcing, biotechnology, GIS/spatial mapping, languages, design, resource management, etc. etc. - than arts or classics courses.

SSE

merlante

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

I'm not saying the arts are useless, far from it, but the simple fact is that degrees in those subjects are not as valued by employers.

The rationale for upgrading and developing WIT, which will be in the teeth of huge opposition from various vested interests, into the UoSE is to act as a catalyst for the economic development of this region. The simple fact is that a focus on business and technology courses will create far more jobs and opportunities - smart computing, business process outsourcing, biotechnology, GIS/spatial mapping, languages, design, resource management, etc. etc. - than arts or classics courses.

SSE

I don't really want to get into a big debate about social science v STEM, both are necessary, but I don't think the situation is as simplistic as some people seem to make out.

Firstly, there are many things, good journalism, economic discourse, clubs and society activities (civil society), economic discourse, open debate, etc. that employers don't value, that society needs to value if they want them to continue to exist. Secondly, many of these things underly liberal democracy, which has formed a solid basis for the development of market capitalism over the years. We do not have a culture of innovation and risk taking or of civic responsibility and public planning in this country. We're all about short termism, clientelism, distrust of all ideas, begrudgery, cute hooreness and generally only concerned with material acquisition. To my mind, we're on a hiding to nothing if we do not attempt to "upskill" the population in civics/social science as well as STEM.

STEM courses tend to produce the engine for the economy but it all goes to waste if there is no planning. And we are atrocious at planning in this country. People with Maths degrees don't necessarily know anything about how to plan for the future, how to do social policy, how to do urban planning, how to position Ireland internationally, whether we should be in/out of the EU, Boston v Berlin, etc. etc. (Apologies to maths graduates!) We need to start listening to smart people of all disciplines and develop a culture of intellectual and critical thought in this country, like every successful country in Europe has.

I agree that we need to produce high quality STEM students in Waterford and the south east. But in this respect, WIT is already doing a reasonable job. Where does Waterford and the south east suffer? It suffers because there is no intellectual elite in Waterford (no Michael D Higgins, etc.), a fairly unsophisticated, unentrepreneurial business elite, a historically narrowly and poorly educated (but improving) political elite. The lack of graduates in city planning, the lack of high quality studies in social exclusion in the city and region, the lack of experts in regional business development, the lack of political scientists and economists adding to the national debate but challenging the Dublin consensus, the lack of a significant, vibrant arts culture, which makes the region a better place to live, a more proud population and generates economic activity in its own way. Now I'm sure people will agree that if all this is ignored we are likely to end up generating a lot of STEM graduates which leave the region as soon as they graduate, and we're nowhere. How many people are happy to have a go at the arts and social sciences but are then quick to complain about the lack of vibrancy in Waterford? It's all very fine saying we need jobs and everything else is more or less irrelevant, but the jobs picture itself is a complicated one and not 100% solved by an availability of STEM graduates.

jmcc

merlante wrote: »

I don't really want to get into a big debate about social science v STEM, both are necessary, but I don't think the situation is as simplistic as some people seem to make out.

It really is simple. Social Science is for people who are not smart enough for Technology, Science or Mathematics.

(Apologies to maths graduates!) We need to start listening to smart people of all disciplines and develop a culture of intellectual and critical thought in this country, like every successful country in Europe has.

Agreed but people should not be listening to morons who just think that they are smart.

It suffers because there is no intellectual elite in Waterford (no Michael D Higgins, etc.),

HA! Intellectual elite indeed. These people are not that intellectual and they are not elite. They are the kind of people who would be dragged up in a trawl of any lightweight, backwoods Arts faculty.

a fairly unsophisticated, unentrepreneurial business elite,

This statement sounds like the wibbling of someone who doesn't understand business or entrepreneurship.

a historically narrowly and poorly educated (but improving) political elite.

Well the political "elite" were often little more than maintainers of the local parish pump - no different from most other politicians in Ireland.

Waterford needs a university. The best chance is a technological university. Leave the Arts and the pseudo-science to the ordinary universities but have a small Arts section in the new university but with very good lecturers. That way you get the best of both worlds and the best Arts types because of the competition.


Regards...jmcc

merlante

jmcc wrote: »

It really is simple. Social Science is for people who are not smart enough for Technology, Science or Mathematics.

Agreed but people should not be listening to morons who just think that they are smart.

HA! Intellectual elite indeed. These people are not that intellectual and they are not elite. They are the kind of people who would be dragged up in a trawl of any lightweight, backwoods Arts faculty.

This statement sounds like the wibbling of someone who doesn't understand business or entrepreneurship.

Well the political "elite" were often little more than maintainers of the local parish pump - no different from most other politicians in Ireland.

Waterford needs a university. The best chance is a technological university. Leave the Arts and the pseudo-science to the ordinary universities but have a small Arts section in the new university but with very good lecturers. That way you get the best of both worlds and the best Arts types because of the competition.

You're just being insulting to social scientists without really giving any concrete basis for your arguments. I suppose you're one of the smart people, who understands business and entrepreneurship and everything else? Maybe the new university should give you a department of your own so you can teach "the natural truth" or whatever.

Still, despite your rabid, anti-arts "wibbling", you still manage to converge on a reasonable conclusion. "Best of both worlds" sounds great to me.

fricatus

Article in today's Irish Times:

Timeline for upgrade of Waterford IT to university sought
BARRY ROCHE, Southern Correspondent

THE GOVERNMENT has been urged to give a timeline for the fast-track upgrading of Waterford Institute of Technology to a full university following confirmation that the Cabinet is committed to such a move.

Waterford Chamber of Commerce welcomed the announcement that the Government had moved to accelerate the setting up of a university in the southeast, with Waterford IT likely to be upgraded to a technological university under the proposals.

According to Waterford Chamber of Commerce president Anne Marie Caulfield, the upgrading of WIT to a technological university could offer the southeast an economic boost.

Ms Caulfield said a 2005 Goodbody report commissioned by Waterford Chamber revealed that a university could generate up to €96 million annually for the southeast. Further reports commissioned by Waterford chamber in 2007 and 2008 showed university-designated third- and fourth-level education must be delivered in Waterford if the southeast was to improve on its poor economic performance relative to the rest of the State, she added.

Earlier this month, Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation Richard Bruton said the Cabinet had decided to give priority to the promise in the programme for government. It was one part of a three-pronged approach to the jobs crisis in the southeast which would also involve IDA Ireland and the Department of Social Protection.

The department is sending officials to Waterford next week to assist the 575 people who lost their jobs at TalkTalk, Mr Bruton added.

Master and commander

someone answer me this, would the Technological University be a part of NUI, or is it stand alone? Because if it is not part of NUI, then it is not a real university, just a wannabe. It's graduates cannot vote in senate elections then.

merlante

While I think it's great the Chamber of Commerce is keeping the issue alive, the government has not said it will "fast-track upgrading of Waterford Institute of Technology to a full university". The 'fast-tack' comment was retracted within half a day and it was never to "full university" in so far as it was a technological university.

I presume they are just making mischief. Still, good points made there. I do think it's ridiculous the obsession about university league tables at the moment where moving a college up 30 places, at possibly a significant cost, makes only a very minor difference to the quality of graduates, whereas creating a university in the south east, at a relatively small cost, could have a huge impact on the region, which accounts for 11% of the national population.

merlante

Master and commander wrote: »

someone answer me this, would the Technological University be a part of NUI, or is it stand alone? Because if it is not part of NUI, then it is not a real university, just a wannabe. It's graduates cannot vote in senate elections then.

It would not be part of the NUI but then neither is UL or DCU, or even Trinity. The NUI is on the brink of being disbanded anyway so I wouldn't worry about it. The universities themselves seem to be protected species, everything else, including IoTs probably, is up for grabs.

Psychedelic

merlante wrote: »

While I think it's great the Chamber of Commerce is keeping the issue alive, the government has not said it will "fast-track upgrading of Waterford Institute of Technology to a full university". The 'fast-tack' comment was retracted within half a day and it was never to "full university" in so far as it was a technological university.

I would say that was the journalist's mistake/misunderstanding and not what the Chamber actually said.

fuzzy dunlop

I think social sciences are getting a bad rap here. I come from a technology and engineering background myself and a purely "technological" University in Waterford in my opinion would not acheive the type of stimulas we would expect from an upgrade. Also I think the amount of graduates we produce without any exposure of any kind to concepts like ethics or what it means to be part of a society is staggering.What it amounts to is that our third level education is not really education in the traditional sense but rather a modern version of "apprenticeship". The amount of competent engineers and technicians I know who have zero knowledge of issues like environmental protection, economics or social contracts, immigration etc. is staggering. The amount of times I heard guys with degrees and in some case ME's coming out with statements decrying why they can't build their 2000 square feet bungalow on land just because they own it.They then blame the government because their drinking water is polluted. The point is their is a mental disconnect between their rights and responsibilites that their "education" has not bridged.


Another poster here has also referred to the media prescence of graduates from Universities from Galway,Dublin and Cork.This is an excellent point. Economics, Crime and Planning have been the mainstay of Current affairs in this country for two decades. How many times have you seen someone from WIT on prime time,Vincent Brown, the last word/right hook etc. from WIT. The Answer is hardly ever. Academics from the Universities are regularly featured and will often refer to their own localities to highlight issues. The same is true for graduates working in the media who again often refer their "expert" knowledge to their locality.

Master and commander

I have not made my mind up on whether it should go ahead. One reason why I and probably the powers that be would be very reluctant to grant Uni status is because it could result in a domino effect - once WIT gets it, then CIT will say "well if they got it, sure maybe we could...." and so on with an avalanche of IT's right down to the likes of (former)Tipperary Institute trying to jump on the Technological University bandwagon. The same as when WRTC became an IT, then they all ended up as IT's.
If this were to happen then the technological university concept would be devalued and amount to only a change in name, as has been thrashed out before on here.

wellboytoo

Master and commander wrote: »

I have not made my mind up on whether it should go ahead. One reason why I and probably the powers that be would be very reluctant to grant Uni status is because it could result in a domino effect - once WIT gets it, then CIT will say "well if they got it, sure maybe we could...." and so on with an avalanche of IT's right down to the likes of (former)Tipperary Institute trying to jump on the Technological University bandwagon. The same as when WRTC became an IT, then they all ended up as IT's.
If this were to happen then the technological university concept would be devalued and amount to only a change in name, as has been thrashed out before on here.

So tis you everyone is waiting for to make up their mind then!

dayshah

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Another poster here has also referred to the media prescence of graduates from Universities from Galway,Dublin and Cork.This is an excellent point. Economics, Crime and Planning have been the mainstay of Current affairs in this country for two decades. How many times have you seen someone from WIT on prime time,Vincent Brown, the last word/right hook etc. from WIT.

Jim Power isn't from WIT, but he gets plenty of coverage, and hasn't forgotten that he's from Waterford.