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Waterford University discussion

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    #2072
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    fits wrote: »
    Do you really believe that? It’s nothing to do with poor third level attendances and lack of skills in the region? I’m amazed at some of the things I am reading here.
    The universities have done everything they can to block a university in the Southeast for the last 30 years.UL and DCU were the last through the gate and there is a determination to have no more universities in the country which will dilute their funding.

    They dont care about the TU's and they see it for what they are,rebranded ITs without the funding structures and prestige of a real university.They are no threat to the existing status quo and wont lure many students away from the existing universities. Any students who have the points and want to go to university wont choose MTU or TUSEI over UCC, UCD or Trinity. And the students who are at IT level will just continue to go to the new TUs. That suits the universities just fine instead of a funded and fully established university in Waterford drawing students from all over the country


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    #2073
    invara
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭invara


    fits wrote: »
    Do you really believe that? It’s nothing to do with poor third level attendances and lack of skills in the region? I’m amazed at some of the things I am reading here.

    Yes.
    I remember the good old days when the late Peter Sutherland took time out from running Goldman Sachs to do an op ed in the Irish Times saying that Waterford should not have a university. John Walshe (the ed corr in the Indo for years) said in his book that the university presidents were the most effective lobby group in Ireland and they burned politicans ears over the Waterford issue. I also have seen first hand how involved the university presidents are in preventing another university region emerge in Ireland.

    Higher ed participation in the region is the same as other regions, it is just based on a migration pattern. Students mainly leave because of course choice (about half of the university courses are not available in the region). Build higher education capacity in the region and you solve that problem.


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    #2074
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    This is exactly what I am taking about
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/colleges-face-crisis-as-funding-in-freefall-1.4269546
    SO WIT and ITCarlow are been forced into a merger at the worst possible time , there will be no funding to expand and both institutes will they will be told "operate within existing budgets and make cuts where necessary" so we will end up with a name change and both institute less effective than they are now as they go through the difficult merger process without financial support.

    No wonder both institutes are dragging their feet on this.I really wish all the local politicians and industry leaders who keep saying we need a university/TU in the south east would look in detail at the current position of third level funding and the forecasts going forward.I noticed the chronic financial position of ITTralee was never mentioned amongst the celebrations about MTU . We don't need a just a university/TU name in the south east , we need a properly funded one .
    But my fear is we end up with a university in name only, both institutes operating at the same or lesser levels than they are now and being told to make cuts to balance the budget. And if anyone complains we will be told sure we got you a university what more do you want


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    #2075
    azimuth17
    Registered Users Posts: 996 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    imacman wrote: »
    This is exactly what I am taking about
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/colleges-face-crisis-as-funding-in-freefall-1.4269546
    SO WIT and ITCarlow are been forced into a merger at the worst possible time , there will be no funding to expand and both institutes will they will be told "operate within existing budgets and make cuts where necessary" so we will end up with a name change and both institute less effective than they are now as they go through the difficult merger process without financial support.

    No wonder both institutes are dragging their feet on the.I really wish all the local politicians and industry leaders who keep saying we need a university/TU in the south east would look in detail at the current position of third level funding and the forecasts going forward.I noticed the chronic financial position of ITTralee was never mentioned amongst the celebrations about MTU . We don't need a university/TU in the south east , we need a properly funded one .
    But my fear is we end up with a university in name only, both institutes operating at the same or lesser levels than they are now and being told to make cuts to balance the budget. And if anyone complains we will be told sure we got you a university what more do you want

    I am sceptical of the TU, it doesn't solve our problems, but can anyone tell me why Dublin and Cork, especially the latter, were so anxious to grab it? If we don't take it will there be a flight of students to the TUs in preference to ITs?


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    #2076
    invara
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭invara


    azimuth17 wrote: »
    I am sceptical of the TU, it doesn't solve our problems, but can anyone tell me why Dublin and Cork, especially the latter, were so anxious to grab it? If we don't take it will there be a flight of students to the TUs in preference to ITs?

    There are three key differences between TUD, MTU and TUSE.
    #1. TUD and MTU had a clear HQ in DIT and CIT, WIT, and Carlow are being told they are equals (setting up an almighty bust up after they merge). If effect the large partner is taking over small insitituions.

    #2. Both Cork and Dublin have existing universities, so these mergers are defensive rather than expansive... Cork will not allow CIT encroach on UCC, DIT is in a sticky spot under DCU/UCD/TCD. CIT and DIT are not seeking growth, rather they are looking to position around existing insititutions. They want the university brand, but do not need the university money/growth.

    #3. CIT and DIT have significant long term political patronage, and have received consistent investment (€1bn Grangegorman... CIT is always first in the queue getting €28m this Christmas for two projects). WIT has not been supported by any regional politican in a long time and has not been favoured by capital investment. So CIT and DIT have no legacy of political mistrust- they have never have a President removed by Marlborough Street.


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    #2077
    spaceCreated
    Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭spaceCreated


    10 million granted for an improvement in the CIT's sports centre, meanwhile were waiting for an engineering building that was approved how many years ago? Theres never been any intention of doing anything but watering down the claims for a uni and trying to get a few more votes from kilkenny and wexford in the process.


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    #2078
    BBM77
    Registered Users Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭BBM77


    At last somebody in politics is saying this.

    https://waterfordnow.ie/business/waterford-has-been-outflanked-and-overtaken-calls-for-wit-to-fight-for-university-status-without-carlow-unless-deadline-is-met/


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    #2079
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    BBM77 wrote: »
    At last somebody in politics is saying this.

    https://waterfordnow.ie/business/waterford-has-been-outflanked-and-overtaken-calls-for-wit-to-fight-for-university-status-without-carlow-unless-deadline-is-met/
    Yea but the Labour party doesn't have a Waterford TD so unfortunately its pretty irrelevant


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    #2080
    Bards
    Registered Users Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭Bards


    imacman wrote: »
    Yea but the Labour party doesn't have a Waterford TD so unfortunately its pretty irrelevant

    Too little too late... Labour had their chance under Brendan Howlin in Wexford but he couldn't bear to see Waterford get ahead just like Hogan (FG) in Kilkenny... Their mantra was anybody but Waterford


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    #2081
    BBM77
    Registered Users Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭BBM77


    Both very true. Just thought it was good to see it being said.

    Howlin and Hogan are so blinded by stifling localism they cannot even see the damage they have done to Wexford and Kilkenny. Their actions have left them with nothing. Is Wexford and Kilkenny economically better by preventing WIT from being upgraded? No, how the hell could they be. If anything it has let them turn more into commuter counties. You only have to see all the cars parked around the M9 junctions every morning to realise that. Don’t ever be on the N/M11 but am certain it is the same.


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    #2082
    Bards
    Registered Users Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭Bards


    What are the chances of WIT made join the Munster Technology University grouping now that Cork will have 3 x senior ministers inuding the Taoiseach...more asset stripping of Waterford for the benefit of Cork is on the cards for the duration of the next Dáil


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    #2083
    rebs23
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭rebs23


    Bards wrote: »
    What are the chances of WIT made join the Munster Technology University grouping now that Cork will have 3 x senior ministers inuding the Taoiseach...more asset stripping of Waterford for the benefit of Cork is on the cards for the duration of the next Dáil
    Asset stripping? It's no other regions fault. Over the last number of years there was a process in place that was open and transparent. It has not been used by WIT and Carlow to progress. The only block to a University in the South East are local politics in the South East.


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    #2084
    spaceCreated
    Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭spaceCreated


    rebs23 wrote: »
    Asset stripping? It's no other regions fault. Over the last number of years there was a process in place that was open and transparent. It has not been used by WIT and Carlow to progress. The only block to a University in the South East are local politics in the South East.

    It was a hardly an open and transparent process; initial estimates indicate would have cost at least 10 both million, with no funding for this coming from government.

    Also it was a technological uni.which grants 0 additional funding or any improvement in facilities or staff.

    Edit: there are some very good links in the thread going through the process and how insane it was


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    #2085
    rebs23
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭rebs23


    spaceCreated wrote: »
    It was a hardly an open and transparent process; initial estimates indicate would have cost at least 10 both million, with no funding for this coming from government.

    Also it was a technological uni.which grants 0 additional funding or any improvement in facilities or staff.

    Edit: there are some very good links in the thread going through the process and how insane it was
    Same process for everyone though.


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    #2086
    spaceCreated
    Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭spaceCreated


    rebs23 wrote: »
    Same process for everyone though.

    Like anything in Irish life context is everything, in education political backing is everything. How WIT were meant to fund their side of the merger is beyond me when they're trying to deal with massive funding cuts and massive losses, even so they can't force Carlow to vote for it.


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    #2087
    azimuth17
    Registered Users Posts: 996 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    spaceCreated wrote: »
    Like anything in Irish life context is everything, in education political backing is everything. How WIT were meant to fund their side of the merger is beyond me when they're trying to deal with massive funding cuts and massive losses, even so they can't force Carlow to vote for it.

    I agree. Invara has posted above that €28m in discretionary funding dropped on CIT last Christmas, while WIT has not seen a shekel for new teaching facilities in well over a decade. Its hard to escape the conclusion that WIT was restrained while Carlow IT, whose lecturers will not agree to the merger, was promoted during that time for very obvious political reasons.


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    #2088
    Max Powers
    Registered Users Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    rebs23 wrote: »
    Same process for everyone though.

    It ain't the same for everyone, WIT has had little to no investment from government in the last 10-15 years, what they have had though is their funding cut by about 25%, bearing in mind fixed costs are about 90% of the budget. Other ITs and unis have had funding showered on them so the situation is not the same and saying it's same process for all ignores the reality of the entire situation.


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    #2089
    BBM77
    Registered Users Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭BBM77


    rebs23 wrote: »
    Same process for everyone though.

    If it is the same process for everybody then why not upgrade WIT to full university status? Waterford is classified by the government as a regional city the same as Cork, Limerick and Galway. Why not take the cheaper and simpler option and just upgrade WIT to university the same as the other regional cities. Same process for everyone after all.


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    #2090
    rebs23
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭rebs23


    BBM77 wrote: »
    If it is the same process for everybody then why not upgrade WIT to full university status? Waterford is classified by the government as a regional city the same as Cork, Limerick and Galway. Why not take the cheaper and simpler option and just upgrade WIT to university the same as the other regional cities. Same process for everyone after all.

    Ah seriously it is exactly the same process and to blame someone else for the log jam that exists between Carlow and Waterford IT on the issue is bizarre. As for upgrading to a University it cannot be done with a flick of a switch, it needs you to illustrate a certain level of competency for it to be recognised internationally. That is why the Tech Uni process exists to ensure the credibility of the institution, standards, etc. If the institutions themselves can't do this themselves well that kind of says it all really.


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    #2091
    rebs23
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭rebs23


    Max Powers wrote: »
    It ain't the same for everyone, WIT has had little to no investment from government in the last 10-15 years, what they have had though is their funding cut by about 25%, bearing in mind fixed costs are about 90% of the budget. Other ITs and unis have had funding showered on them so the situation is not the same and saying it's same process for all ignores the reality of the entire situation.
    The same could be said of every other IT over the last 10 years. Universities for capital projects generally have a mix of state and other sources of funding. Why is it always the "Government's fault" or other regions doing one over on you, etc when on the Uni issue it is clearly in the hands of the institutions in the South East.


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    #2092
    Bards
    Registered Users Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭Bards


    rebs23 wrote: »
    Ah seriously it is exactly the same process and to blame someone else for the log jam that exists between Carlow and Waterford IT on the issue is bizarre. As for upgrading to a University it cannot be done with a flick of a switch, it needs you to illustrate a certain level of competency for it to be recognised internationally. That is why the Tech Uni process exists to ensure the credibility of the institution, standards, etc. If the institutions themselves can't do this themselves well that kind of says it all really.
    in numerous independent reports such as Dr. Port it was found WIT was already operating at University level and in any other country would be classified as a university in its own right and on its own merit


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    #2093
    JimWinters
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭JimWinters


    WIT was operating at full University level (not Technological University) in 2007 according to the Port Report following WIT’s application to become a University in I think 2005 or 2006.

    https://assets.gov.ie/24437/6c107758d76b4481a63a014f2ab1b424.pdf

    Other IoTs have been successful in getting funding for infrastructure, modernisation and other improvements, especially in the past few years. WIT only received a loan to finish the Arena and has to pay that money back to the department or Education. This loan further constrains the finances in the institute.

    Successive governments have strangled WITs finances in a bid to force them into this merger.

    On that subject, can anyone tell me one good reason why a technological university is any better than an IT? Why spend €30 million just to merge two institutes that are so far apart physically, structurally and culturally? Wouldn’t they be better off spending that money improving on improving things for students?


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    #2094
    invara
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭invara


    rebs23 wrote: »
    The same could be said of every other IT over the last 10 years. Universities for capital projects generally have a mix of state and other sources of funding. Why is it always the "Government's fault" or other regions doing one over on you, etc when on the Uni issue it is clearly in the hands of the institutions in the South East.

    Rebs, always nice to get a visit from our Cork-overlords... (joke!).

    No the same cannot be said for every IoT. €28m into CIT in Dec/Jan, €17.5m into LIT for the ongoing Coonagh Campus, Grangegorman is a €1bn project. WIT is even pushed back into phase II of the PPP projects.

    The CIT/Tralee process was really suspicious- they did not meet the criteria (in the panel report and the Deloitte audit) and it appears a caretaker minister pushed them over the line nonetheless. Almost 100 days after losing power in the midst of the COVID crisis. The whole thing stinks. Full documents on the process are here... https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/6fcb5-munster-technological-university/


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    #2095
    rebs23
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭rebs23


    invara wrote: »
    Rebs, always nice to get a visit from our Cork-overlords... (joke!).

    No the same cannot be said for every IoT. €28m into CIT in Dec/Jan, €17.5m into LIT for the ongoing Coonagh Campus, Grangegorman is a €1bn project. WIT is even pushed back into phase II of the PPP projects.

    The CIT/Tralee process was really suspicious- they did not meet the criteria (in the panel report and the Deloitte audit) and it appears a caretaker minister pushed them over the line nonetheless. Almost 100 days after losing power in the midst of the COVID crisis. The whole thing stinks. Full documents on the process are here... https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/6fcb5-munster-technological-university/
    I can feel the love for Cork in this thread! Those involved in the MTU process have a different story to tell about how their application was delayed and the additional criteria placed on them above the DTU application but that's another story. They still went through the process and answered the queries.
    There are other regions in Ireland where they are going down the road of applying for TU status same as WIT& Carlow so you won't get a special "bye" in the application process. Look the process in the South East is stalled because of politics in the South East and if you won't do it for yourselves and go through whats in front of you then you will be stalled indefinitely.
    I'll give you the Grangegorman bit and it is crazy in a land use crisis in Ireland that we are choosing Dublin City Centre as a location for another University.


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    #2096
    invara
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭invara


    rebs23 wrote: »
    Look the process in the South East is stalled because of politics in the South East and if you won't do it for yourselves and go through whats in front of you then you will be stalled indefinitely.

    TUSE is stalled because there is nothing in it for the people of the SE. It is being done to our region against our wishes. On day 1 of TUSE we will be back in lockstep with the 2nd string institutions in Cork/Limerick/Galway... yippie.

    No access to university funding, locked out of borrowing, and we do not even get the small sweeties that Cork and Dublin got for their TU.


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    #2097
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    These fake universities exist only to shore up failing bodies.


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    #2098
    spaceCreated
    Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭spaceCreated


    rebs23 wrote: »
    Those involved in the MTU process have a different story to tell about how their application was delayed and the additional criteria placed on them above the DTU

    Could you give us a source for that, might make interesting reading and a comparison?


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    #2099
    BBM77
    Registered Users Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭BBM77


    I wonder why there is such hostility from existing universities to WIT being upgraded.

    https://www.waterfordlive.ie/news/news/555200/waterford-irelands-ict-innovation-capital-top-ranking-for-wit-in-european-research-funding.html


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    #2100
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,455 ✭✭✭✭fits


    BBM77 wrote: »
    I wonder why there is such hostility from existing universities to WIT being upgraded.

    https://www.waterfordlive.ie/news/news/555200/waterford-irelands-ict-innovation-capital-top-ranking-for-wit-in-european-research-funding.html

    I really dont see this hostility at all. I find the persecution complex in this thread perplexing.


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    #2101
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    fits wrote: »
    I really dont see this hostility at all. I find the persecution complex in this thread perplexing.

    The persecution complex as you call it is born from bitter experience. If you cant see why people are unhappy with the treatment of WIT you obviously arent aware of what has gone on over the last decade.


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