Waterford University discussion

friendlyfun

How is WIT 9 million in debt? Just out of curiosity.

JimWinters

friendlyfun wrote: »

How is WIT 9 million in debt? Just out of curiosity.

Here’s some of the big reasons:
IoTs had around 25% of their funding cut after the recession. Further to that, where most institutes receive generous funding for new buildings, WIT had to borrow money from the Dept of Education to finish the Arena. Campus Services invested in accommodation pre crash and their debt was made part of the institute’s finances around 2012/2013 too.

I’ve been told just under 90% of WIT’s expenditure goes on staff wages leaving just over 10% to spend on maintaining the campus, infrastructure, technology and everything down to whiteboard markers. It’s chronically underfunded as it is!

imacman

JimWinters wrote: »

Here’s some of the big reasons:
IoTs had around 25% of their funding cut after the recession. Further to that, where most institutes receive generous funding for new buildings, WIT had to borrow money from the Dept of Education to finish the Arena. Campus Services invested in accommodation pre crash and their debt was made part of the institute’s finances around 2012/2013 too.

I’ve been told just under 90% of WIT’s expenditure goes on staff wages leaving just over 10% to spend on maintaining the campus, infrastructure, technology and everything down to whiteboard markers. It’s chronically underfunded as it is!

As I have said before they dont have the money to fix leaks in the roof or clean the grime and lichen off the buildings which look dreadful

Wanderer78

JimWinters wrote:

Here’s some of the big reasons: IoTs had around 25% of their funding cut after the recession. Further to that, where most institutes receive generous funding for new buildings, WIT had to borrow money from the Dept of Education to finish the Arena. Campus Services invested in accommodation pre crash and their debt was made part of the institute’s finances around 2012/2013 too.

Austerity is well known to cause these type of issues, it forces activities out into the private sector markets to aquire funding for such needs, resulting in increased debt, it's unfortunately how we have designed our systems, it's understandable how conspiracies begin for such outcomes.

fits

imacman wrote: »

As I have said before they dont have the money to fix leaks in the roof or clean the grime and lichen off the buildings which look dreadful

The campus in WIT is in dreadful condition. Carlow is a much more pleasant campus. As regards the debt WITs funding situation is no worse than any other IT in the country. Carlow self funded all their capital ptojects and are about to build a new science block and administration building.

blackwhite

JimWinters wrote: »

Here’s some of the big reasons:
IoTs had around 25% of their funding cut after the recession. Further to that, where most institutes receive generous funding for new buildings, WIT had to borrow money from the Dept of Education to finish the Arena. Campus Services invested in accommodation pre crash and their debt was made part of the institute’s finances around 2012/2013 too.

I’ve been told just under 90% of WIT’s expenditure goes on staff wages leaving just over 10% to spend on maintaining the campus, infrastructure, technology and everything down to whiteboard markers. It’s chronically underfunded as it is!

The Department of Education doesn't provide funding for Sports facilities or commercial facilities to any third-level institutions. Trying to equate funding for educational/academic projects to funding for sports & commercial facilities is apples with oranges.

When NUI Galway built their sports centre (which opened in 2008) they increased the Student levy from 2005 onwards to fund it.

Any Government funding for sports facilities comes via the Sports Capital Grants scheme through Department of Sport (and as I understand it, WIT Arena received approx €1m between 2012-2016 to aid its development).

JimWinters

fits wrote: »

The campus in WIT is in dreadful condition. Carlow is a much more pleasant campus. As regards the debt WITs funding situation is no worse than any other IT in the country. Carlow self funded all their capital ptojects and are about to build a new science block and administration building.

My understanding is that WIT operates under the nationally agreed model of Assistant Lecturer, Lecturer and Senior Lecturer. Carlow have another Lecturer grade, these staff are paid less than their counterparts in WIT and with lesser conditions too.

Carlow’s lecturers rejected the memorandum of understanding for the TU because their conditions would remain the same. Effectively they would be doing the same job as a WIT Lecturer, in the same TU but with less pay and worse conditions.

The reasons why Carlow’s finances are so healthy are also the reasons why their staff rejected the MOU and why they would require something like €3 million a year extra for lecturer equality across the TU...

JimWinters

blackwhite wrote: »

The Department of Education doesn't provide funding for Sports facilities or commercial facilities to any third-level institutions. Trying to equate funding for educational/academic projects to funding for sports & commercial facilities is apples with oranges.

When NUI Galway built their sports centre (which opened in 2008) they increased the Student levy from 2005 onwards to fund it.

Any Government funding for sports facilities comes via the Sports Capital Grants scheme through Department of Sport (and as I understand it, WIT Arena received approx €1m between 2012-2016 to aid its development).

That’s correct Blackwhite, CIT’s recent sports campus was developed with Athletics Ireland with €9.22 million in funding from the Dept of Transport, Tourism and Sport. WIT received just €1m. I should have been more specific, you are correct, the Dept of Education don’t fund facilities like the Arena. Waterford lacked the political weight to get funding from other sources to finish the project so they were left with no choice other than borrowing from the department (and sorting out the Campus Services mess of borrowing for accommodation). My point is just that this added to its debt pile where most institutes have these facilities funded.

WIT is already at the max student registration fee so they couldn’t add any more to fund the Arena like NUIG unfortunately.

imacman

JimWinters wrote: »

My understanding is that WIT operates under the nationally agreed model of Assistant Lecturer, Lecturer and Senior Lecturer. Carlow have another Lecturer grade, these staff are paid less than their counterparts in WIT and with lesser conditions too.

Carlow’s lecturers rejected the memorandum of understanding for the TU because their conditions would remain the same. Effectively they would be doing the same job as a WIT Lecturer, in the same TU but with less pay and worse conditions.

The reasons why Carlow’s finances are so healthy are also the reasons why their staff rejected the MOU and why they would require something like €3 million a year extra for lecturer equality across the TU...

This is correct, ITCarlow has a grade called associate lecturer which they use for most of their part time lecturers which WIT doesn't have .Part time lecturers in WIT are paid much more than their Carlow equivalents ( a product of having much more militant unions in Waterford).This was a bit a of savvy business at the time but it has come back to bite them in the merger process . They immediately go into deficit if they have to match the WIT terms
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/another-tech-university-project-hit-by-wrangle-over-26m-issue-38294742.html

fits

The Associate lecturers are not in the union as far as I know. Most do 2-4 hours a week

I doubt that’s the reason for the difference.

Full time staff are probably on better terms in WIT alright.

blackwhite

JimWinters wrote: »

That’s correct Blackwhite, CIT’s recent sports campus was developed with Athletics Ireland with €9.22 million in funding from the Dept of Transport, Tourism and Sport. WIT received just €1m. I should have been more specific, you are correct, the Dept of Education don’t fund facilities like the Arena. Waterford lacked the political weight to get funding from other sources to finish the project so they were left with no choice other than borrowing from the department (and sorting out the Campus Services mess of borrowing for accommodation). My point is just that this added to its debt pile where most institutes have these facilities funded.

WIT is already at the max student registration fee so they couldn’t add any more to fund the Arena like NUIG unfortunately.

NUIG student union body voted in a special levy to pay for it - it wasn't part of the registration fee

spaceCreated

JimWinters wrote: »

Here’s some of the big reasons:
IoTs had around 25% of their funding cut after the recession. Further to that, where most institutes receive generous funding for new buildings, WIT had to borrow money from the Dept of Education to finish the Arena. Campus Services invested in accommodation pre crash and their debt was made part of the institute’s finances around 2012/2013 too.

I’ve been told just under 90% of WIT’s expenditure goes on staff wages leaving just over 10% to spend on maintaining the campus, infrastructure, technology and everything down to whiteboard markers. It’s chronically underfunded as it is!

As far as campus services. I think WIT had a massive hole in their funding, the person who helped create that hole took about 10 million from campus services to help plug the hole that she helped create by approving accounts etc. Campus Services then took out a loan in which the money went to WIT, this was orchestrated by the same person. This person is still employed in the WIT on a fairly highly paid job as far as I'm aware. Theres more details somewhere way back in this thread I think. But anyway Campus services were well in the green, helped plug a hole and then were blamed for the mismanagement of certain people who were in charge at the time, the president at the time took nearly all the blame but there was plenty to balme for it and many are still there.

Have to say the "art" in the computer science building didn't come cheap either.

But at the end of the day if you have x amount of funding and it gets cut overnight you'll have a problem. This along with the guarantees for the sports centre which were also cut.

plasticman3327

spaceCreated wrote: »

Have to say the "art" in the computer science building didn't come cheap either.

You mean all the donated art?

https://www.wit.ie/about_wit/at_a_glance/bewick_art_collection

imacman

fits wrote: »

Carlow self funded all their capital ptojects and are about to build a new science block and administration building.

For the record their new science block isnt self funded its part of IOT PPE building scheme which includes the new Engineering, Computing and General Teaching Building in WIT along with others.
https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2018-press-releases/PR18-06-05A.html

ITCarlow grew its finances though clever handing of staff terms which facilitated by meek unions unlike other colleges around the country. This is especially evident in Waterford where there is an historic strong union culture arising from the docks and Waterford Crystal which has lead to a very militant unions in all Waterford industries.

Added to this ITcarlow had a demographic explosion of College age students over the 10 years an the kids of the Celtic tiger commuters grew up in north Lenister. Carlow was well placed to pick those who didn't make it to university as it was just down the motorway.

So Carlow definitely handled their Finances better than WIT but they had a lot of advantages as well which WIT didn't have . Whats interesting going forward is their CAO numbers have plateaued while WITs have gone up each year for the last 4 years and WIT took in more that 1000 CAO student last year compared to Carlow. Added into this the costs of a merger and matching staff terms and the financial position in Carlow isn't looking great an I dont think they will be self funding more buildings any time soon

azimuth17

I agree with most of Imacman's last post, but as far as I can see, the only strong unions in Waterford are the public service unions, like teachers and lecturers in TUI. Traditional union power has been very much dissipated with some industries not having any, same as many new industries around the country. The high point of the docks and Glass union, the ATGWU, now UNITE, around which most of the union power you mention was centred, has long passed.

914

Nice article

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/south-east-needs-a-university-of-waterford-1.407563?mode=amp

Johnboy1951

914 wrote: »

Nice article

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/south-east-needs-a-university-of-waterford-1.407563?mode=amp

Yeah, and not a lot has changed in the SE since it was written 15 years ago.

spaceCreated

plasticman3327 wrote: »

You mean all the donated art?

https://www.wit.ie/about_wit/at_a_glance/bewick_art_collection

Was there not a massive charge for each signature on the "art"? The "art" itself was free as fart as I'm aware but to get it signed was expensive.

914

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yeah, and not a lot has changed in the SE since it was written 15 years ago.

I know I just think it really highlights the need and it was from 15 years ago and now the only option we have is some botched merger still leaving the southeast without a Uni

azimuth17

spaceCreated wrote: »

Was there not a massive charge for each signature on the "art"? The "art" itself was free as fart as I'm aware but to get it signed was expensive.

Urban legend about WIT i'd imagine , just like the stories of champagne parties and orgies in the president's office used to "explain" spending on his cost code when the truth, (elicited by the PAC and various accountancy firms) was much more prosaic and down to earth. Tom Boland was appointed head of the HEA in 2004 and retired from it in 2016. His tenure is completely intertwined with everything negative that happened at WIT and especially the opposition to university designation. He is now the "independent facilitator" in control of the proposed TUSE merger.

imacman

azimuth17 wrote: »

I agree with most of Imacman's last post, but as far as I can see, the only strong unions in Waterford are the public service unions, like teachers and lecturers in TUI. Traditional union power has been very much dissipated with some industries not having any, same as many new industries around the country. The high point of the docks and Glass union, the ATGWU, now UNITE, around which most of the union power you mention was centred, has long passed.

I agree the main union power in Waterford has passed with the closure of the glass and the docks .But a strong left wing union culture still exists in the city that doesn't exist in the places like Carlow.
This hasn't always been to Waterfords advantage and im sure its one of the factors that has led a lower level of EI multinational investment in Waterford compared to other parts of the country.

The WIT TUI have been very effective in getting great terms for their members over the years and I think this merger has opened the staff in Carlows eyes to the differences in their terms compared to Waterford for the same work. And there is no way the WIT terms are going to be rolled back so Carlow will have to bite the bullet at some stage and match them or the merger is going nowhere.

imacman

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yeah, and not a lot has changed in the SE since it was written 15 years ago.

I could dig you out a dozen of articles like this from the last 20 years , but something has changed and changed fundamentally . We are no longer looking for an university that can complete and has the same terms as the likes of UCC or UL. Instead we are been forced into a merger for a TU which will never have the same reputation , funding or prestige as a university. It drives me crazy when you see stuff like this
https://www.waterfordchamber.ie/about-us/chamber-news/1739-chamber-welcomes-appointment-of-tuse-director
The chamber says in the press release
“There has been far too long a delay on what is certain to be a game changer for Waterford (why what evidence do they have apart from hoping for the best) . We can see the impact University status has had on other cities and Waterford is in need of such an injection.( of course universities have impact in other cities because they are fully funded universities, thats not what we are getting with this TU merger )"
Everyone seems happy to drink the governments TU Kool Aid and no hard questions about it are allowed .

914

imacman wrote: »

I could dig you out a dozen of articles like this from the last 20 years , but something has changed and changed fundamentally . We are no longer looking for an university that can complete and has the same terms as the likes of UCC or UL. Instead we are been forced into a merger for a TU which will never have the same reputation , funding or prestige as a university. It drives me crazy when you see stuff like this
https://www.waterfordchamber.ie/about-us/chamber-news/1739-chamber-welcomes-appointment-of-tuse-director
The chamber says in the press release
“There has been far too long a delay on what is certain to be a game changer for Waterford (why what evidence do they have apart from hoping for the best) . We can see the impact University status has had on other cities and Waterford is in need of such an injection.( of course universities have impact in other cities because they are fully funded universities, thats not what we are getting with this TU merger )"
Everyone seems happy to drink the governments TU Kool Aid and no hard questions about it are allowed .

Yes, and for the life of me I can not understand the support for this TUSE from the camber, our local and national representatives.

They seem to feel this is the only way to go rather than saying no and fighting for full uni status.

Dexpat

imacman wrote: »

I agree the main union power in Waterford has passed with the closure of the glass and the docks .But a strong left wing union culture still exists in the city that doesn't exist in the places like Carlow.
This hasn't always been to Waterfords advantage and im sure its one of the factors that has led a lower level of EI multinational investment in Waterford compared to other parts of the country.

The WIT TUI have been very effective in getting great terms for their members over the years and I think this merger has opened the staff in Carlows eyes to the differences in their terms compared to Waterford for the same work. And there is no way the WIT terms are going to be rolled back so Carlow will have to bite the bullet at some stage and match them or the merger is going nowhere.

I don't think that the conditions of staff in WIT relates necessarily to a strong TUI there. It seems the conditions in Carlow are a big outlier in third level education. All other ITs seem to have similar conditions to Waterford. I'm amazed Carlow were able to get away with it.

The more I hear about the the merger process and the mess it creates the more pessimisistic I become. It solves nothing in relation to education requirements in the South East. The first TU involving DIT will probably live up to its potential because of the huge resources it was able to secure for a new campus. Most of this it has to be said, was self funded from being able to sell existing very valuable sites in the centre of Dublin.

However for the South East this just looks like a change in name only. It is purely politically driven to enable politicians to say that they have delivered. The can will be pushed down the road for another generation. The most frustrating thing is that a proper university was deliverable but Phil Hogan and Brendan Howlin when in power, failed to see its importance for the region and instead saw resources going to Waterford as a thread to their own areas. Small minded 'local' politicians seem to be the norm in this country.

fits

Can anyone expand on exactly what the difference in terms between WIT and ITC are?

azimuth17

Dexpat wrote: »

I don't think that the conditions of staff in WIT relates necessarily to a strong TUI there. It seems the conditions in Carlow are a big outlier in third level education. All other ITs seem to have similar conditions to Waterford. I'm amazed Carlow were able to get away with it.

The more I hear about the the merger process and the mess it creates the more pessimisistic I become. It solves nothing in relation to education requirements in the South East. The first TU involving DIT will probably live up to its potential because of the huge resources it was able to secure for a new campus. Most of this it has to be said, was self funded from being able to sell existing very valuable sites in the centre of Dublin.

However for the South East this just looks like a change in name only. It is purely politically driven to enable politicians to say that they have delivered. The can will be pushed down the road for another generation. The most frustrating thing is that a proper university was deliverable but Phil Hogan and Brendan Howlin when in power, failed to see its importance for the region and instead saw resources going to Waterford as a thread to their own areas. Small minded 'local' politicians seem to be the norm in this country.

My understanding is that the WIT TUI union group essentially looked for conditions that applied in DIT and Cork IT. I don't have much time for the TUI, they are militant everywhere, but they can hardly be blamed in WIT for looking for parity with other similar institutions. I further understand, that Carlow expansion was built on low wage and conditions for an a lot of their lecturing staff who basically had zero hour contracts. To remedy that and give parity with DIT,CIT,WIT is going to cost an awful lot. The merger is rotten and politically driven from day one. No other merged group is expected to merge and then simultaneously expand to other new campuses. there is not an adult in the house who thinks this is sensible. A triumph of politics over good sense and we will never get the UNI that (is needed) is referred to by Dr Ed Walsh in Irish Times article quoted above at this stage.

notfromhere

WIT not doing themselves any favours with the Exam situation. Lots of students not happy with it.

imacman

notfromhere wrote: »

WIT no doing themselves any favours with the Exam situation. Lots of students not happy with it.

Dont get me started, what a mess that is.I know that there is massive frustration among staff who now have to deal with the fall out of this situation. WIT ( and in saying WIT I mean the Registrar and academic council ) have shot themselves to both feet with this one

vriesmays

fits wrote: »

Can anyone expand on exactly what the difference in terms between WIT and ITC are?

Instead of having the best IT in the country Waterford will have the worst university in the country.

914

vriesmays wrote: »

Instead of having the best IT in the country Waterford will have the worst university in the country.

Almost.... Waterford will have the worst non full University in the country!