Waterford University discussion

JimWinters

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I think it's reasonable and obvious to expect the board to be a loaded dice.

Does anyone know who's on the MTU board? I cannot find anything online about it. Is there representation from Clare, Limerick and Tipp as well as Cork and Kerry? If not, then why should there be anyone from outside of Waterford and Carlow on the TUSEI board?

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Speaking of panels - the plan has to be submitted to a body (forget the name) for their blessing, it would be great if they found Carlow was just not of sufficient academic and research merit to be uplifted to university standard as things stand.

Unfortunately the international panel reported a number of issues that should have stopped the formation of MTU. Instead of getting the panel back to review the changes made to resolve the issues (which should have been done) the government just said, thanks, we fixed those problems now it's a TU. This whitewashing of the process has completely eroded the reputation of TUs in Ireland as they never passed review by an international panel

This quote from the panel's report looks all to familiar. https://assets.gov.ie/24636/65f0e20fdcec4508924a9cee217eea1b.pdf

With respect to the threshold criteria, preparedness and capacity to function as a new technological university the panel findsthat the MTU proposal partially meets the requirements set out in the Technological Universities Act, 2018, but leaves questions unanswered regarding the specifics of how the two applicant institutions are tobecome one.

914

JimWinters wrote: »

Does anyone know who's on the MTU board? I cannot find anything online about it. Is there representation from Clare, Limerick and Tipp as well as Cork and Kerry? If not, then why should there be anyone from outside of Waterford and Carlow on the TUSEI board?





Unfortunately the international panel reported a number of issues that should have stopped the formation of MTU. Instead of getting the panel back to review the changes made to resolve the issues (which should have been done) the government just said, thanks, we fixed those problems now it's a TU. This whitewashing of the process has completely eroded the reputation of TUs in Ireland as they never passed review by an international panel

This quote from the panel's report looks all to familiar. https://assets.gov.ie/24636/65f0e20fdcec4508924a9cee217eea1b.pdf

Fully agree, all this talk of "it's not a done deal yet, we need to get it over the line"

My belief is if any IoT applies for TU status it will receive it, as you rightly said look at MTU, a number of issues existed but it was like "ah it's ok lads, you made a good stab of it, there you go, good job"

JimWinters

914 wrote: »

My belief is if any IoT applies for TU status it will receive it

If that was true it would be great! The only condition that they seem to HAVE to meet is that they MUST merge with another IoT for no practical reason other than that’s what’s in the TU act. The cost of the merge can be extortionate, it will cost more to run the merged entity but none of that matters it seems. Other than the political interfering, I still see no rational for merging institutes to form a TU. It’s the part of all of this that really really annoys me!

Ps. 914, I know you meant merged institutes will always receive it but I needed the rant about their mergers 😉

Christy Browne

https://twitter.com/MattShanahanTD/status/1359873795029278723?s=20

If you don't laugh you'll cry.

imacman

914 wrote: »

Fully agree, all this talk of "it's not a done deal yet, we need to get it over the line"

My belief is if any IoT applies for TU status it will receive it, as you rightly said look at MTU, a number of issues existed but it was like "ah it's ok lads, you made a good stab of it, there you go, good job"

Completely agree, as I have said here before MTU was a complete rubber stamp job by the minister. I read the international panels report and it was very critical of the whole process and structure in MTU.

They provided a whole document worth of things that needed to be sorted before they could approve it . The HEA itself said it was a two-three year job to get to that level and the minister gave them 6 months at which point he approved the TU and the international panel where never asked back or contributed to the decision. The TU idea is a complete political stroke and nothing to do with education, that is completely visible to anybody who looks at the process

azimuth17

914 wrote: »

Fully agree, all this talk of "it's not a done deal yet, we need to get it over the line"

My belief is if any IoT applies for TU status it will receive it, as you rightly said look at MTU, a number of issues existed but it was like "ah it's ok lads, you made a good stab of it, there you go, good job"

Fine Gael promised a university to Waterford in 2008 and in 2011 election. That could not be delivered with Howlin and Hogan in the Dail so some mechanism had to be found to be seen to deliver something to Waterford but which could simultaneously be spread across the south east. All else follows from that.

The DoEd believes in a two strand system of higher education, as in Germany and other European countries, the vocational and the academic, just like they did when WRTC was upgraded to WIT. ALL IoTs will be Tech Unis to maintain the two strand system.

Shanahan doing a good job in fairness in Dail on this.

Harry Palmr

Well we here, among others won't be slow to highlight the report should it be of a similar conclusion. Indeed it's vital it's made available immediately for discussion in the public sphere - by whatever method.

Harry Palmr

Okay this is interesting,

https://twitter.com/maryroche/status/1359897312265457667

Remember that loaded dice I mentioned?!

TUSEI board (other than WIT ITC members)



ETB, is Education and Training Board

smellyoldboot

What business have the ETBs (All the bad parts of Fás that 3rd level wouldn't take) got having anything to do with being on such a committee?

spaceCreated

My only surprise about this thing is they're even bothering to promise anything. Do they understand the votes they bought with the empty promises for the last 3 elections are gone. Theres no university, no 24/7 cardiac care, we've heard the waffle for decades now they're just whipping a dead horse.

They can make all the promises they and try and to make it look like the knife in the back wasnt theirs but its pretty obvious. I could see Fine Gael and Fainna Fail dropping more votes easily next election and with Howlin down in Wexford Labour will never have a chance to pull off a Lazarus. Sinn Fein will be laughing all the way to the polling stations in Waterford, forget running 2 candidates they might run 3.

Surprised by Shanahan thought he was going to be happy saying he could do nothing and collect a pension. I can see a lot of people giving their second pref to independents and not going near the parties who can deliver near anything for any other region but only promises and panels for the South East.

But seriously that whole thing by Varadkar to say the crystal site was a potential site and then distance himself from the whole thing is a nice a nice reminder when he said the Consultants and Doctors were lying about the situation in the mortuary a couple of years ago. I really dont know why Cummins is bothering, hed have more chance going as an independent rather than party who are happy to let people die on the roadside if they're from Waterford.

914

JimWinters wrote: »

If that was true it would be great! The only condition that they seem to HAVE to meet is that they MUST merge with another IoT for no practical reason other than that’s what’s in the TU act. The cost of the merge can be extortionate, it will cost more to run the merged entity but none of that matters it seems. Other than the political interfering, I still see no rational for merging institutes to form a TU. It’s the part of all of this that really really annoys me!

Ps. 914, I know you meant merged institutes will always receive it but I needed the rant about their mergers 😉

Correct.

The reason for merging is to bring student numbers up to 15k, and then the government can say a TU has the same capacity as a full Uni but actually requires no expansion.

If they were to upgrade WIT alone they would need to bring the student numbers up to the 15k mark possibly doubling the footprint of the campus but due to the merge, the "University" does not need to be scaled.

A way of giving regions a University without giving a University.

Can anyone genuinely see the government investing 500million over the next 10-20 years in the SETU to actually have it compete with other Uni's. Considering both WIT and IT Carlow have received 52 million since 2008 between them!

SeanieW1977

Can anyone genuinely see the government investing 500million over the next 10-20 years in the SETU to actually have it compete with other Uni's. Considering both WIT and IT Carlow have received 52 million since 2008 between them![/QUOTE]

of which carlow has got 80%

garyscargo

https://twitter.com/MattShanahanTD/status/1359150903538941958?s=19

What a powerhouse of research the Athlone-Limerick TU promises to be based on those figures! (and they have already officially applied IIRC). It will, once established (and it will be rubberstamped, make no mistake, just like MTU), have a research expenditure less than half of WIT's current level. But, in fairness to Athlone and Limerick ITs, they still each hand IT Carlow its ass on current figures.

Christy Browne

Wouldn’t it be absolutely delicious if the independent panel declared WIT should be upgraded on it’s own and that IT Carlow wasn’t up to it’s level :pac:

imacman

Christy Browne wrote: »

Wouldn’t it be absolutely delicious if the independent panel declared WIT should be upgraded on it’s own and that IT Carlow wasn’t up to it’s level :pac:

NO chance of that , a consultant professor from the UK ( cant remember his name ) who was brought in to a study on the TU viability around 5 or 6 years ago suggested that. He actually said WIT would reach the TU criteria quicker on its own than it would with Carlow. This didn't go down well in Carlow and his contract was cancelled the the report disappeared soon after .

914

imacman wrote: »

NO chance of that , a consultant professor from the UK ( cant remember his name ) who was brought in to a study on the TU viability around 5 or 6 years ago suggested that. He actually said WIT would reach the TU criteria quicker on its own than it would with Carlow. This didn't go down well in Carlow and his contract was cancelled the the report disappeared soon after .

Was that doctor Port, know as the Port report. He was recommending WIT and DIT had merit to become fully fledged uni's

imacman

914 wrote: »

Was that doctor Port, know as the Port report. He was recommending WIT and DIT had merit to become fully fledged uni's

That's the guy, couldn't remember his name. The way he was treated was shocking but its just another footnote in this TU clusterf**K that has gone on for nearly a decade now.

914

imacman wrote: »

That's the guy, couldn't remember his name. The way he was treated was shocking but its just another footnote in this TU clusterf**K that has gone on for nearly a decade now.

I think the report was in 2009, he even stated how Waterford was the only gateway city to not have a University and an IoT.

Government launched a review and that was the end of it. Funnily enough you can still get the application online but Dr Ports review can not be found anywhere.

Can find snippets from newspaper articles and that's about it

Bards

imacman wrote: »

NO chance of that , a consultant professor from the UK ( cant remember his name ) who was brought in to a study on the TU viability around 5 or 6 years ago suggested that. He actually said WIT would reach the TU criteria quicker on its own than it would with Carlow. This didn't go down well in Carlow and his contract was cancelled the the report disappeared soon after .

That was 2007...14 years ago now...

914

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Policy-Reports/Application-by-Waterford-Institute-of-Technology-for-Designation-as-a-University-Port-Report-.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjj79H86-LuAhXBShUIHVYjAVcQFjALegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0zqqZclOjfdRuDBIbKHXTb

This is the application

smellyoldboot

Christy Browne wrote: »

Wouldn’t it be absolutely delicious if the independent panel declared WIT should be upgraded on it’s own and that IT Carlow wasn’t up to it’s level :pac:

"Independent" in an Irish context is a fanciful idea. Any outcome will be already pre-approved, bought and paid for.

914

smellyoldboot wrote: »

"Independent" in an Irish context is a fanciful idea. Any outcome will be already pre-approved, bought and paid for.

Or like the independent boundary commission, in favour of a boundary extension but wait that's in support of Waterford so lefts shelve that one.

Yet the independent report in 24/7 cardiac care was gospel, government who are we to go against such a report.

Harry Palmr

Nothing changes.

"Unless it over-turned such a recommendation, the Government could be faced with several further “me-too” applications by other IoTs, and, if these were successful, the risk of dilution of the mission of the IoT sector."

914

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Nothing changes.

"Unless it over-turned such a recommendation, the Government could be faced with several further “me-too” applications by other IoTs, and, if these were successful, the risk of dilution of the mission of the IoT sector."

So to prevent that they come up with TUs, you'll have a University but you won't have a University, problem solved boys

imacman

Bards wrote: »

That was 2007...14 years ago now...

No it wasn't the Port report it was professor John Taylor report which has completely disappeared but I did read back in 2014 , see my post from then

Ok lets talk facts
The independent John Taylor report stated that the research level in Carlow are light years behind Waterford and would push back the application up to 5 years or longer. This debate isn't about student numbers its about R&D in which Carlow IT has the 2nd smallest research contributor after Tralee IT where as WIT is on the same level as many of the university's.
FACT 1- Carlow are years behind in reaching the levels of research activity to reach the TU criteria
FACT 2- Carlow have nowhere near enough PHD and masters level lecturers to proceed according to the TU criteria.(as stated in independent report )

So no amount of money or Political pressure will speed that up, it would be up to IT Carlow staff and as anyone knows who have studied at post-grad level it will take lots of time.


Last edited by imacman; 31-10-2014 at 13:15.

914

imacman wrote: »

No it wasn't the Port report it was professor John Taylor report which has completely disappeared but I did read back in 2014 , see my post from then

Ok lets talk facts
The independent John Taylor report stated that the research level in Carlow are light years behind Waterford and would push back the application up to 5 years or longer. This debate isn't about student numbers its about R&D in which Carlow IT has the 2nd smallest research contributor after Tralee IT where as WIT is on the same level as many of the university's.
FACT 1- Carlow are years behind in reaching the levels of research activity to reach the TU criteria
FACT 2- Carlow have nowhere near enough PHD and masters level lecturers to proceed according to the TU criteria.(as stated in independent report )

So no amount of money or Political pressure will speed that up, it would be up to IT Carlow staff and as anyone knows who have studied at post-grad level it will take lots of time.


Last edited by imacman; 31-10-2014 at 13:15.

Ah yes that one, I remember that now, sorry I was pre dating back to the days before TU.

If I'm correct Taylor recommend WIT should be allowed go it alone

imacman

914 wrote: »

Ah yes that one, I remember that now, sorry I was pre dating back to the days before TU.

If I'm correct Taylor recommend WIT should be allowed go it alone

More details towards the end of this story in the Munster Express from back in 2014
http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/wit-deserves-more-than-tu-paralysis/

In a report prepared for WIT Dr Taylor (which has, curiously, since been withdrawn), he stated: “Viewed in isolation, WIT is approaching the successful achievement of the agreed criteria…Recent increases in student numbers at Masters and Doctoral levels mean that the 4% threshold is near is near to being bet; similarly, taking into account new appointments, the target of 45% of staff with doctorates or the equivalent is close to being achieved. Indeed, depending on how the data are presented, some targets may already have been met.”
He added: “I am in no doubt that WIT is ‘moving in the right direction’, with a positive trajectory that will ensure that the TU criteria are met in the near future. My very rough estimate is that WIT alone will satisfy the quantitative criteria by the end of 2015-16.”

garyscargo

914 wrote: »

Correct.

The reason for merging is to bring student numbers up to 15k, and then the government can say a TU has the same capacity as a full Uni but actually requires no expansion.

If they were to upgrade WIT alone they would need to bring the student numbers up to the 15k mark possibly doubling the footprint of the campus but due to the merge, the "University" does not need to be scaled.

The infuriating "must merge" stipulation is a absolutely arbitrary, irrational, and intended to force the sort of crap we're facing with Carlow. There are plenty of small universities with just a few thousand students internationally, so a 15k enrollment threshold or target is also "ass pulled". Here's a list of UK unis by enrollment numbers:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_enrolment

Note how plenty have just a few thousand students. And the UK dominate the world university rankings (along with the US), having circa 18 unis that outperform our best performer TCD (and plenty more outperform our other unis too; the UK hand us our collective ass in the world uni rankings, make no mistake). And note how the lesser and smaller UK universities can coexist alongside Oxbridge and Imperial; people know the f*cking difference, and the lesser minnows don't harm the overall reputation of UK universities one iota. Why are the Irish university sector seemingly so terrified of new universities being established? They might have to work a bit harder for funding? Boo f*cking hoo! And the "international reputation of Irish universities suffering" is also a crock as demonstrated by the UK (who have established 17 new universities in the last decade alone with no reputational damage to the others).

The way this TU ****show is unfolding I would rather that we just rebadge every IT as a university (as the UK did with the polys in 1992, many of which are now solid mid-tier universities). Let Carlow have its own f*cking university, and let us have ours. I know which one would continue to punch well above its weight, and which would continue to behave like a glorified FE/PLC provider stuffed with micromanaging control freaks (oops, I mean Professors!).

Harry Palmr

Scotland is the one to look at - population 5.5 million with 15 fully fledged universties. University of St Andrews is probably the perfect "target" is terms of scale. Albeit UStA has a 550 year head start as an institution!

Academic staff 1,137
Administrative staff 1,576
Students 8,984
Undergraduates 7,221
Postgraduates 1,763

Endowment £90.0M (as of 31 July 2019)
Budget £251.2 million (2018-19)

Re Taylor report this from 2014 -
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/waterford-it-chair-steps-down-following-controversial-university-status-proposal-30718097.html

The executive board paper stated that it was clear that a merged institution “will be incapable of designation as a university within the medium to long term, if ever”.

It describes the proposed merger as a “leap of faith” and that a merger would lead to a larger institution but its performance capacity would certainly be “less than the current performance of WIT alone”, a reference to the relative lack of research activity in Carlow.

Following that Ms O’Sullivan called Waterford IT president Ruaidhri Neavyn and the vice chairman of Governing Body, Colr Jack Walsh to meeting body where she strongly communicated the Government commitment to the project.

and here we are 7 years on and essentially nothing has changed WIT is still a quantum ahead of Carlow and Carlow is not catching up.

garyscargo

SeanieW1977 wrote: »

Yep to all that.

Rabbit out of a hat.

I’d love to know the public procurement workings behind such a statement made in the dail?

Because it was the first the developer heard of it!

Not remotely surprised that the mention of the possible purchase of the Waterford Crystal site for TUSE was news to the owner/developer too.

Bit of a long shot I know, but the developer (Frisby IIRC?) wouldn't be up for a bit of, err, "philanthropy", would he?:) Yes, I know he's a businessman, but so were e.g. Chuck Feeney and Michael Smurfitt, who have donated to UL (hugely in Feeney's case, making an enormous contribution to Limerick city) and UCD respectively (ref. Smurfitt Graduate Business School). So, what if WIT were publicly offered the Crystal site free of charge (or for a nominal amount) on condition that it must be used for TUSE, and the TUSE HQ must remain in Waterford (covenant on the title or whatever legal safeguards would give effect to this guarantee). Made as a public offer this would put Minister Harris and the government in a politically sticky position. Refusing the offer of a huge free and patently suitable site for the new TU, especially considering what site that is and what it represents emotionally and psychologically for the City, couldn't easily be done IMO, if at all. It might be checkmate for the HQ shenanigans. The squirming would be delicious at the very least.

Yes, I know it's just fanciful whataboutery, and you might ask why the owner/developer would ever do this. Well, at the end of the day we're all just worm food or ash, but a name and legacy can live on. The Frisby Graduate School of Business, or the Noel Frisby Institute of Sustainability and the Environment (or something along those lines) might look very nice on that site for generations to come as an enduring reminder of his generosity. Or perhaps he could even instead donate a good chunk of the site to WIT/TUSE, and keep back a suitable portion for developing student accommodation, or a conference centre (or whatever) in the future. Hell, that portion might be more valuable than the entire site if the current dilapidation is replaced by modern university buildings. Not to mention the knock on effect of prosperity to the wider City, including house and land prices in general (which would obviously be of interest to him). It might therefore actually make business sense to the developer to gift (or cheaply sell) the site beyond simply being an act of philanthropy for his City. Anyone actually know the guy and brave enough to broach this idea with him? (Even for sh1ts and giggles)

Or we could just gofundme or something to buy the bloody site for TUSE (with the same HQ conditions attached). You know, whatever