Total Ban on the Way?

Traumadoc

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=36302-qqqx=1.asp

chem

Wolud it be an idea to invite the minister and garda brass to an open day on the range? Let them see its not US thats the problem. For a judge to say this is just crazy "Peter Charleton last month, who linked increased handgun ownership to rising homicide and suicide rates".

I`ll be ringing the minister for justice tomorrow!

Blazher

The problem is not the fact, We have handguns the problem is bigger then that.

Well before we got our handguns back there has been alot of firearms in the wrong hands. You have always been able to buy handguns/Aks/M16 and even RPGs in Ireland.


This is just a show of power. Minister for Justice has to show he is doing something to stop the "out break" ( made me laugh) of firearms in Ireland, So he is going to take the easy option. Meaning he is going to hurt the good people.

Funny thing is over 95% of shootings are done with shotguns.

chem

It might have alot to do with the government having alot of egg on its face over the high court actions?

It was the only way left open to shooters imo.

tonysopprano

They say that 11 pistols were stolen in the last 5 years. How many of those were Garda/Army firearms as opposed to private firearms ?.

Once again the backboneless government are targeting the law abiding citizens instead of doing the right thing and going after the scum.

Why does that not surprise us ?.

IRLConor

I suspect that it's driven by public opinion.

Do a poll of the general public asking "Do you think all handguns should be banned?" and you'll probably see a resounding "Yes". Being in a democracy means that the majority rules, no matter how ill-informed or illogical the majority is. The people are always right, even when they're wrong. :rolleyes:

It would be nice if the minister stood up and said "Listen, banning handguns won't fix the problems you think it will." but there's no way he'd do that since all it would take is one shooting (even with an illegally-held firearm) to destroy his career. If he does the opposite and just puts a blanket ban on all handguns it's a safe option since no-one with any political clout will complain and when the next shooting happens he'll stand up in the Dail and say "This is why I took a strong line on handguns."

Are there any TDs willing to stand up, point to our nearest neighbour and use them as an example of how banning handguns doesn't even make a dent in gun crime?

rrpc

tonysopprano wrote: »

They say that 11 pistols were stolen in the last 5 years. How many of those were Garda/Army firearms as opposed to private firearms ?.

There was a Dail question on this and from the answer the vast majority stolen were starting pistols/deacts.

The problem is that the Gardai record these as pistol/revolver in their stats.

gameshotpro

Its always the case with the government.
By targeting gun ownership they are trying to cover up something else
(the recession). When they feel they cant do anything to combat a bigger problem, they try to target the smaller problems.

At the start of 2008 they brought in the stupid idea of targeting young learner drivers. This was to take the spotlight off a bigger problem(drink driving) which they couldnt do anything about.

Sparks

I think that if the SBPost won't even read the public records of the case in Donegal and note that it was for a 9mm pistol instead of a "Glock 0.22" pistol (gee, did someone read about Finland and think that 0.22 was finnish for 9mm?), then they're hardly likely to dig through PQs to find the relevant data.

Perhaps this is where people writing into newspapers on a wide scale would do us well. Perhaps if we put together the points we'd like to make in here and let folks write in about them? It'd also give the SBPost and others a single point to go to to find out this sort of thing.

Sparks

gameshotpro wrote: »

At the start of 2008 they brought in the stupid idea of targeting young learner drivers.

Not to get off-topic, but the simple statistics showed that young male drivers were the primary actuarial risk. That was it, basicly.

This was to take the spotlight off a bigger problem(drink driving) which they couldnt do anything about.

Spoken to any pub owner of late about their earnings? The only people still drinking and driving are generally what you'd refer to as "unreformable".

The point of that digression was that if we're going to point out to the journalists that their facts are wrong, we need to do it as directly, simply and impersonally as possible and to make sure our facts are correct...

chem

Is there any group or club that will allow me to invite my local TD to there range for a pistol and fullbore rifle shoot? My local TD is Minister Ahern DOJ. I will take time off work if he would like to try it out. I just feel that if he seen how people feel about the sport he might have a better informed idea about it. PM me if there is anyone who is willing to take me up on the offer. Cheers all:D

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

Not to get off-topic, but the simple statistics showed that young male drivers were the primary actuarial risk. That was it, basicly. Spoken to any pub owner of late about their earnings? The only people still drinking and driving are generally what you'd refer to as "unreformable".

The point of that digression was that if we're going to point out to the journalists that their facts are wrong, we need to do it as directly, simply and impersonally as possible and to make sure our facts are correct...

is gun crime bad in ireland ,armed tresspass ,poaching ,shooting up road signs there all logged , i know the wicklow gaurds are stopping hunters and if you have a moderator with out a permit or a gun loaded ,ie bullets in the mag they will take it .they stopped two likely lads and lifted two guns two weeks ago for this reason .also a guy was stopped with poweder primers coming of the ferry last week lifted all his guns .there is three cases in one week from our side

Sparks

But none of those are offences against another person jw - they're all violations of paperwork or hunting rights. Civil, rather than Criminal cases, if you follow me.

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

But none of those are offences against another person jw - they're all violations of paperwork or hunting rights. Civil, rather than Criminal cases, if you follow me.

yes, but none the less there gun related crimes .have you ever stopped and looked through a sign post with a bullet hole in it there is no sand banks behind them,i know were the easy target for the powers that be .we have to get our house in order and start looking after ourseleves .brining in powder and caps into the state how do the gaurds know this stuff is not going into a pipe bomb, 1500 bucks worth i heard ,if some one takes a firearm from a your home they should be hung from the nearest tree ,not a slap on the wrists

Sparks

I'm definitely not saying they're okay jw, just that if it's a Civil case, then it's not sufficient to ban an entire class of firearm over. And I'm 100% behind the idea of policing ourselves lest we be policed, but I think that our own have pretty much hung us out to dry over the last twenty years on that one. Right now, the best thing we can do is to protest this in the letters pages and point out that (1) their facts are in error, (2) this is all happening two weeks before a crackdown budget and someone's just looking for a distract-the-media story, and (3) firearms used in the gun crime people are concerned about on a national level (ie Criminal cases) are smuggled into the country with drug shipments - only one of which (intercepted earlier this year) contained as many pistols as were licenced in an entire year to legitimate firearms owners.

Sikamick

Can someone put together the statistics on the number people that were shot with pistol between 1972 and the date the pistols were returned.

I wounder would the Sunday Business Post publish these statistics and let Joe public see that there was nothing archived, no saving of lives by taking the pistols in that last time.

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Can someone put together the statistics on the number people that were shot with pistol between 1972 and the date the pistols were returned.

I wounder would the Sunday Business Post publish these statistics and let Joe public see that there was nothing archived, no saving of lives by taking the pistols in that last time.

An interesting point, but these statistics would be obviously skewed by the 'troubles' and probably wouldn't be comparable to the current situation.

Mellor

Sikamick wrote: »

Can someone put together the statistics on the number people that were shot with pistol between 1972 and the date the pistols were returned.

Sika, I understand your point that the banning of pistols between '72 and '03 wouldn't of prevented any would be assassins from breaking the law. But I think those stats, if published, would actuly be mis-leading. And would suggest a rise in recent years.
The population increase would have a n effect for a start. As would overall crime increase, or even the change more towards drugs i nthe underworld.

I'm just speculation, and I don't actually know the facts and figures. But its the kind of thing a paper mis-quotes and protrays the wrong image.

An example of this is the SBPs "skyrocketed from 0 to 1700".

rrpc

Mellor wrote: »

An example of this is the SBPs "skyrocketed from 0 to 1700".

Especially since the start figure wasn't 0. Starting pistols, air pistols, flare pistols, antique pistols and deactivated pistols were all licensable or recorded before 2004 and were classed in Garda statistics as pistol/revolver.

See here: http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0605/D.0605.200506280431.html

jwshooter

sparks, i agree with all your points .very easy for joe public to say ban pistols ,ban fox hunting ,ban sport shooting all together i dont care .i know noting about them or care less but sure ban em any way there guns .we have to make joe public aware the we use firearms for sport and work .not weapons to rob and kill people with,how many of us left a firearm in the jeep or car when getting food or a drink on the way home .also how many would know the rules or guildlines on the back of a firearm licence with out looking , sika its up to the user of a moderator to get the permit we all know lads that just will not bother . it would not be right for a RFD to have to inforce the permit as it would be his word againest the users..

IRLConor

Thread split. Thanks for your patience.

thehair

jwshooter wrote: »

is gun crime bad in ireland ,armed tresspass ,poaching ,shooting up road signs there all logged , i know the wicklow gaurds are stopping hunters and if you have a moderator with out a permit or a gun loaded ,ie bullets in the mag they will take it .they stopped two likely lads and lifted two guns two weeks ago for this reason .also a guy was stopped with poweder primers coming of the ferry last week lifted all his guns .there is three cases in one week from our side

hello jwshooter i am sure if sports shooter dont break the law
they have noting to fear steve

cavan shooter

It is a total pity that legitimate shooters can be scape goated like this. where is the Associations we pay membership to. I am not a pistol shooter, I shot them before and have no more than a parting interest, but where will it stop. Someone already said it, can we get some good press, Shooters are the law abiding in every way

thehair

cavan shooter wrote: »

It is a total pity that legitimate shooters can be scape goated like this. where is the Associations we pay membership to. I am not a pistol shooter, I shot them before and have no more than a parting interest, but where will it stop. Someone already said it, can we get some good press, Shooters are the law abiding in every way

well said cavan shooter i agree with above steve:(:)

Grizzly 45

Last Wed night[24th Sept],Iwas talking to my FAO.He stated that it is already going around the Gardai that within the next 12/18 months ALL handguns bar proably air pistols and Olympic style .22 target pistols will be banned and withdrawn from the public!!However we will be compensated for the loss of our property!!!
[Yeah right!! Proably a paltry sum fixed by some burrocrat that doesnt reflect the genuine value of the gun.:mad::(]
So people,removal of digits from rear ends and get bothering politicans [especially Mr Aherne] and our organisations who are supposedly looking after this,would be the top pirority for the next weeks until we have a cast iron grauentee on this.This is wayy too serious for complacency,and"do it tomrrowitis":(.Get writing,protesting phoning,emailing and into your politicans clinics.Make noise or lose them!!

bunny shooter

Time now to see if FCP is working ? This would come under legislation. This must be on the table for discussion

Lets be honest though it wouldn't be a major shock if they banned 'em

thehair

bunny shooter wrote: »

Time now to see if FCP is working ? This would come under legislation. This must be on the table for discussion

Lets be honest though it wouldn't be a major shock if they banned 'em

who knows about the F-C-P and any plans the DOJ have for other type
of sports shooting steve:(

meathstevie

Folks, can I make a point for demonstrating the flawed logic that seems to be applied in the argumentation pro handgun ban.

I feel we should ban the following :

- Subaru Impreza WRX
- Mitsubishi EVO
- Any other quality performance car
- Motorbikes over 125 cc.

Why, well eh...criminals like to use them as tools for committing serious crime, just like pistols. And to hell with the law abiding owner of one of those hellish machines. They're murders waiting to happen and anyone who wants one of them couldn't be right in the head. Now there you go. Does anyone see the sense in that ?

Than why can people be convinced to see the sense in denying someone what's essentially sports equipment with a slightly higher risk factor than a hurley if not minded properly ?

I've stated it in here before and I will again : LEGALLY HELD HANDGUNS ARE NOT A PROBLEM. It's easy to talk about banning them and creating an impression of problem solving in relation to gun crime by targeting law abiding shooters who aren't part of the problem for starters.
Why, I wonder ?

Because a table full of guns on the telly looks good for the Gardai bigwigs and the minister ? Lets not forget to put a caption under the newsreel that it didn't take any effort locating them because the owners were "were known to gardai": they had their guns registered and licenced through the gardai.

Sparks

Not the first time we've heard this rumour from Gardai though, is it?
And I'm not sure what the FCP can do to veto a Minister who's out to be seen to be doing something just before a crackdown budget is announced

On the other hand, banning a particular kind of firearm would be legally difficult. The Minister certainly could reissue the "wedon'tlicencethemhere" policy, but that'd probably wind up in the courts because of the precedents set up to now. And it would also raise a rather ugly problem that's been sitting about since 2006, in that the law on selling a firearm you no longer have a licence for was amended but the amendment can't be applied (see here - it's not possible to amend the existing law as directed by the CJA2006). You'd have to have your barrister get the court to declare that section of the CJA to be void, and that means the High Court (DC's can't do it, dunno about CCs though). Which means money. And time and effort and more crap.

But then, that's what this all boils down to in the end - yet more time and effort and manpower and money devoted to a useless cause when it could be sorted out in a far more efficient manner and we could get on with the things we need to get on with.


(That's assuming, of course, that Grizzly's Garda isn't mixing up a ban with the commencement of the restricted list, which seems far more likely to me)

thehair

meathstevie wrote: »

Folks, can I make a point for demonstrating the flawed logic that seems to be applied in the argumentation pro handgun ban.

I feel we should ban the following :

- Subaru Impreza WRX
- Mitsubishi EVO
- Any other quality performance car
- Motorbikes over 125 cc.

Why, well eh...criminals like to use them as tools for committing serious crime, just like pistols. And to hell with the law abiding owner of one of those hellish machines. They're murders waiting to happen and anyone who wants one of them couldn't be right in the head. Now there you go. Does anyone see the sense in that ?

Than why can people be convinced to see the sense in denying someone what's essentially sports equipment with a slightly higher risk factor than a hurley if not minded properly ?

I've stated it in here before and I will again : LEGALLY HELD HANDGUNS ARE NOT A PROBLEM. It's easy to talk about banning them and creating an impression of problem solving in relation to gun crime by targeting law abiding shooters who aren't part of the problem for starters.
Why, I wonder ?

Because a table full of guns on the telly looks good for the Gardai bigwigs and the minister ? Lets not forget to put a caption under the newsreel that it didn't take any effort locating them because the owners were "were known to gardai": they had their guns registered and licenced through the gardai.

if only the people in power were to think like you meathstevie :eek:

I've stated it in here before and I will again : LEGALLY HELD HANDGUNS ARE NOT A PROBLEM. It's easy to talk about banning them and creating an impression of problem solving in relation to gun crime by targeting law abiding shooters who aren't part of the problem for starters.

IT IS EASY TO TARGET LEGALLY HELD HANDGUNS FOR THE POWERS TO BE
STEVE:(

Sparks

thehair wrote: »

I've stated it in here before and I will again : LEGALLY HELD HANDGUNS ARE NOT A PROBLEM. It's easy to talk about banning them and creating an impression of problem solving in relation to gun crime by targeting law abiding shooters who aren't part of the problem for starters.

Thanks Steve, but I think we all know - and have always known - that that's the case. Perhaps you have some ideas on how to go about preventing people from doing so?

tonysopprano

bunny shooter wrote: »

Time now to see if FCP is working ? This would come under legislation. This must be on the table for discussion

Lets be honest though it wouldn't be a major shock if they banned 'em

Funilly enough, I heard last week that SSAI are looking to fasttrack membership for IPSA. Now it makes sense. When it was only practical pistol on the line, SSAI/FCP didnt give a f**k, but now that ALL pistols are on the line, they want the help of IPSA to stop it.

So much for a consolidated shooters front. If it works then SSAI/FCP are the heroes, if not practical pistol is at fault.

As an aside, I am hearing rumors (not to be repeated until verified) of some statements by Des Crofton recently, which were unkind to pistol shooters. Can anyone cast light on this as to when/where/why ?

BornToKill

The guy last week, Matti Saari, did not kill 10 people with a car or motorbike. The same applies to Thomas Hamilton. Like it or not, there is a concern - cited by Justice Peter Charlton - that the same could happen here. Arguing over gun crime statistics is a sidetrack.

Grizzly 45

(

That's assuming, of course, that Grizzly's Garda isn't mixing up a ban with the commencement of the restricted list, which seems far more likely to me)

There IS always that possibility Sparks,and hopefully this is the case.However he did hear it from a clerk in the firearms dept.Frankly,he admitted it could be somone adding 2+2 and getting 56.But in fairness,he is wel laware of the trouble I had getting my application,and he is usually sure to double check his info to keep rumours down.Still no smoke without fire,so maybe contingency plans should be considerd??

thehair

Sparks wrote: »

Thanks Steve, but I think we all know - and have always known - that that's the case. Perhaps you have some ideas on how to go about preventing people from doing so?

no i do not i thought you and a few that went to the meeting with
the F-C-P- would know a lot more than i will ever know sparks:)steve

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

The guy last week, Matti Saari, did not kill 10 people with a car or motorbike. The same applies to Thomas Hamilton. Like it or not, there is a concern - cited by Justice Peter Charlton - that the same could happen here. Arguing over gun crime statistics is a sidetrack.

There was also a concern that the Large Hadron Collider could create a black hole which would consume the entire planet. Just because "there's a concern" doesn't mean that it's worth wasting time on it - some concerns are just ill-founded.
Fact is, Saari and Hamilton used firearms because they had them - but like suicides, if they hadn't had firearms they would have used something else, and please don't tell me that firearms are more dangerous - I can go into Tesco tonight and buy the components for Ricin gas for pete's sake. Or just buy razor blades and stick them in apples for the trick-n-treaters later this month. If you want to solve the problems that Hamilton and Saari give to society, you have to solve the problem of mental health, not access to specific tools!

Sparks

thehair wrote: »

no i do not i thought you and a few that went to the meeting with
the F-C-P- would know a lot more than i will ever know sparks:)steve

Conference, not meeting - and this idea that there's a few privileged people who can do everything is not a good one. The 2% rule works just as adversely here as it does everywhere else in our sport.

tonysopprano

BornToKill wrote: »

The guy last week, Matti Saari, did not kill 10 people with a car or motorbike. The same applies to Thomas Hamilton. Like it or not, there is a concern - cited by Justice Peter Charlton - that the same could happen here. Arguing over gun crime statistics is a sidetrack.

Just one question to you BornToKill, as reported in the Finnish media, not all victims died from gunshots, some died from smoke and fire from the molotov cocktails (i am in no way diminishing from the fact that all deaths were a direct result of Matti Saari's actions), but should we now ban petrol, rags, glass bottles or the like ?.

Sparks

Also, are we so quick to forget exactly what Charleton actually said and what the judges he was contradicting were saying? The man wasn't adaquately knowlegable for us to base national level policy on his opinion, especially when it's the minority dissenting opinion by a long margin!

BornToKill

Hey, you can attack me if you want to but you're only shooting the messenger. This debate and any action contemplated - and this whole thread is speculation coming from a newspaper report - springs from school shootings. I'm only pointing out the obvious. I'm also not suggesting that anything - from handguns to Tesco to rags - be banned. But if someone is turned down for a licence only to get it in court and then kills someone will it be the solicitor who took the case or those who funded it that get the backlash? No, it will be the Minister. All those legal challenges had to lead to some response in the end.

Sparks

tonysopprano wrote: »

Funilly enough, I heard last week that SSAI are looking to fasttrack membership for IPSA. Now it makes sense. When it was only practical pistol on the line, SSAI/FCP didnt give a f**k, but now that ALL pistols are on the line, they want the help of IPSA to stop it.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. For a start, the NASRPC and the NSAI and the NTSA all shoot fullbore pistol (I'll grant you, because it's novel, only a few NTSA members have .32 pistols, but it's still an NTSA discipline).
Secondly, the IPSA have been pushing for membership for a long, long time; and thirdly, the SSAI just had a major change of membership when the NTSA left, and while it's not why they left, it did make things a lot easier to bring in the IPSA. Frankly, I'm utterly unsurprised they're now accelerating things. It was only to be expected.

As an aside, I am hearing rumors (not to be repeated until verified) of some statements by Des Crofton recently, which were unkind to pistol shooters. Can anyone cast light on this as to when/where/why ?

Given the kind of rumours on the whole "everyone's out to get fullbore pistols shooters" riff that have gone round in the recent past (and the most likely source of same), how about no-one post anything like that unless they can prove it?

thehair

BornToKill wrote: »

Hey, you can attack me if you want to but you're only shooting the messenger. This debate and any action contemplated - and this whole thread is speculation coming from a newspaper report - springs from school shootings. I'm only pointing out the obvious. I'm also not suggesting that anything - from handguns to Tesco to rags - be banned. But if someone is turned down for a licence only to get it in court and then kills someone will it be the solicitor who took the case or those who funded it that get the backlash? No, it will be the Minister. All those legal challenges had to lead to some response in the end.

i am not attack you borntokill ther are rules about attacking members
this is a debate and your point off view is your point of view from steve:)

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

Hey, you can attack me if you want to but you're only shooting the messenger.

Sorry BTK, didn't mean for it to sound like an attack, it wasn't - I'm just pointing out that the sole reason for coming after legitimate firearms owners like that is down to political point-scoring, not any kind of actual policy which has the public good as a motive or a competent strategy as a method.

If someone is turned down for a licence only to get it in court and then kills someone will it be the solicitor who took the case or those who funded it that get the backlash? No, it will be the Minister. All those legal challenges had to lead to some response in the end.

Actually, it'd be the Superintendent (as he's the persona designata), and in those few cases of late where a legally held firearm was used to kill somone (I can think of two in the last five years, one being Nally and the other being Healy) the Superintendents involved were not penalised at all.

BornToKill

Thanks Steve; maybe attack was too strong

BornToKill

Thanks Sparks too. There was also the Hanrahans in Kerry. But a spree killing is a very different thing altogether to those incidents. And it would be the Minister who would get the flak, persona designata or not.

rrpc

Just to echo what Grizzly said: whether it's true or not, there's an article in a national newspaper that says the Minister is going to do this. So now's the time to get in touch with your local TD and put pressure on the Minister to actually deal with the problems of criminal misuse of firearms and not be scapegoating legitimate firearms owners yet again to no real purpose other than 'being seen to do something'.

thehair

BornToKill wrote: »

Thanks Steve; maybe attack was too strong

aaa we are all friends on here:D

SHOOTING SPORTS = PASSION FOR A SPORT OFF SHOOTING:D

Grizzly 45

Maybe it might also be helpful to point out,that there was a fair bit of human error on the part of the Finnish police as well.So for somones incompetance 1000 odd kilometers away,does that mean we in Ireland have to suffer?

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Maybe it might also be helpful to point out,that there was a fair bit of human error on the part of the Finnish police as well.So for somones incompetance 1000 odd kilometers away,does that mean we in Ireland have to suffer?

Was this not mooted a while back? I seem to recall a similar if not exactly the same statement from the Minister some time back which would mean Finland has nothing to do with this.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

Was this not mooted a while back? I seem to recall a similar if not exactly the same statement from the Minister some time back which would mean Finland has nothing to do with this.

___________________________________________________________________

If so rrpc we should have been taking heed of the warnings, look at the responses on boards last week, re the shooting sports policing its self.

For respected people in the sport to say we can't trust anyone in the sport not even oneself to police the sport, doesn't instill much confidence in us.



Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

___________________________________________________________________

If so rrpc we should have been taking heed of the warnings, look at the responses on boards last week, re the shooting sports policing its self.

For respected people in the sport to say we can't trust anyone in the sport not even oneself to police the sport, doesn't instill much confidence in us.
Sikamick

You're misrepresenting what Sparks said quite egregiously. He said you can't trust anyone with the kind of power you were proposing, I would echo that sentiment. Otherwise how come we get to re-elect our government every five years?