Total Ban on the Way?

tonysopprano

bunny shooter wrote: »

Time now to see if FCP is working ? This would come under legislation. This must be on the table for discussion

Lets be honest though it wouldn't be a major shock if they banned 'em

Funilly enough, I heard last week that SSAI are looking to fasttrack membership for IPSA. Now it makes sense. When it was only practical pistol on the line, SSAI/FCP didnt give a f**k, but now that ALL pistols are on the line, they want the help of IPSA to stop it.

So much for a consolidated shooters front. If it works then SSAI/FCP are the heroes, if not practical pistol is at fault.

As an aside, I am hearing rumors (not to be repeated until verified) of some statements by Des Crofton recently, which were unkind to pistol shooters. Can anyone cast light on this as to when/where/why ?

BornToKill

The guy last week, Matti Saari, did not kill 10 people with a car or motorbike. The same applies to Thomas Hamilton. Like it or not, there is a concern - cited by Justice Peter Charlton - that the same could happen here. Arguing over gun crime statistics is a sidetrack.

Grizzly 45

(

That's assuming, of course, that Grizzly's Garda isn't mixing up a ban with the commencement of the restricted list, which seems far more likely to me)

There IS always that possibility Sparks,and hopefully this is the case.However he did hear it from a clerk in the firearms dept.Frankly,he admitted it could be somone adding 2+2 and getting 56.But in fairness,he is wel laware of the trouble I had getting my application,and he is usually sure to double check his info to keep rumours down.Still no smoke without fire,so maybe contingency plans should be considerd??

thehair

Sparks wrote: »

Thanks Steve, but I think we all know - and have always known - that that's the case. Perhaps you have some ideas on how to go about preventing people from doing so?

no i do not i thought you and a few that went to the meeting with
the F-C-P- would know a lot more than i will ever know sparks:)steve

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

The guy last week, Matti Saari, did not kill 10 people with a car or motorbike. The same applies to Thomas Hamilton. Like it or not, there is a concern - cited by Justice Peter Charlton - that the same could happen here. Arguing over gun crime statistics is a sidetrack.

There was also a concern that the Large Hadron Collider could create a black hole which would consume the entire planet. Just because "there's a concern" doesn't mean that it's worth wasting time on it - some concerns are just ill-founded.
Fact is, Saari and Hamilton used firearms because they had them - but like suicides, if they hadn't had firearms they would have used something else, and please don't tell me that firearms are more dangerous - I can go into Tesco tonight and buy the components for Ricin gas for pete's sake. Or just buy razor blades and stick them in apples for the trick-n-treaters later this month. If you want to solve the problems that Hamilton and Saari give to society, you have to solve the problem of mental health, not access to specific tools!

Sparks

thehair wrote: »

no i do not i thought you and a few that went to the meeting with
the F-C-P- would know a lot more than i will ever know sparks:)steve

Conference, not meeting - and this idea that there's a few privileged people who can do everything is not a good one. The 2% rule works just as adversely here as it does everywhere else in our sport.

tonysopprano

BornToKill wrote: »

The guy last week, Matti Saari, did not kill 10 people with a car or motorbike. The same applies to Thomas Hamilton. Like it or not, there is a concern - cited by Justice Peter Charlton - that the same could happen here. Arguing over gun crime statistics is a sidetrack.

Just one question to you BornToKill, as reported in the Finnish media, not all victims died from gunshots, some died from smoke and fire from the molotov cocktails (i am in no way diminishing from the fact that all deaths were a direct result of Matti Saari's actions), but should we now ban petrol, rags, glass bottles or the like ?.

Sparks

Also, are we so quick to forget exactly what Charleton actually said and what the judges he was contradicting were saying? The man wasn't adaquately knowlegable for us to base national level policy on his opinion, especially when it's the minority dissenting opinion by a long margin!

BornToKill

Hey, you can attack me if you want to but you're only shooting the messenger. This debate and any action contemplated - and this whole thread is speculation coming from a newspaper report - springs from school shootings. I'm only pointing out the obvious. I'm also not suggesting that anything - from handguns to Tesco to rags - be banned. But if someone is turned down for a licence only to get it in court and then kills someone will it be the solicitor who took the case or those who funded it that get the backlash? No, it will be the Minister. All those legal challenges had to lead to some response in the end.

Sparks

tonysopprano wrote: »

Funilly enough, I heard last week that SSAI are looking to fasttrack membership for IPSA. Now it makes sense. When it was only practical pistol on the line, SSAI/FCP didnt give a f**k, but now that ALL pistols are on the line, they want the help of IPSA to stop it.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. For a start, the NASRPC and the NSAI and the NTSA all shoot fullbore pistol (I'll grant you, because it's novel, only a few NTSA members have .32 pistols, but it's still an NTSA discipline).
Secondly, the IPSA have been pushing for membership for a long, long time; and thirdly, the SSAI just had a major change of membership when the NTSA left, and while it's not why they left, it did make things a lot easier to bring in the IPSA. Frankly, I'm utterly unsurprised they're now accelerating things. It was only to be expected.

As an aside, I am hearing rumors (not to be repeated until verified) of some statements by Des Crofton recently, which were unkind to pistol shooters. Can anyone cast light on this as to when/where/why ?

Given the kind of rumours on the whole "everyone's out to get fullbore pistols shooters" riff that have gone round in the recent past (and the most likely source of same), how about no-one post anything like that unless they can prove it?

thehair

BornToKill wrote: »

Hey, you can attack me if you want to but you're only shooting the messenger. This debate and any action contemplated - and this whole thread is speculation coming from a newspaper report - springs from school shootings. I'm only pointing out the obvious. I'm also not suggesting that anything - from handguns to Tesco to rags - be banned. But if someone is turned down for a licence only to get it in court and then kills someone will it be the solicitor who took the case or those who funded it that get the backlash? No, it will be the Minister. All those legal challenges had to lead to some response in the end.

i am not attack you borntokill ther are rules about attacking members
this is a debate and your point off view is your point of view from steve:)

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

Hey, you can attack me if you want to but you're only shooting the messenger.

Sorry BTK, didn't mean for it to sound like an attack, it wasn't - I'm just pointing out that the sole reason for coming after legitimate firearms owners like that is down to political point-scoring, not any kind of actual policy which has the public good as a motive or a competent strategy as a method.

If someone is turned down for a licence only to get it in court and then kills someone will it be the solicitor who took the case or those who funded it that get the backlash? No, it will be the Minister. All those legal challenges had to lead to some response in the end.

Actually, it'd be the Superintendent (as he's the persona designata), and in those few cases of late where a legally held firearm was used to kill somone (I can think of two in the last five years, one being Nally and the other being Healy) the Superintendents involved were not penalised at all.

BornToKill

Thanks Steve; maybe attack was too strong

BornToKill

Thanks Sparks too. There was also the Hanrahans in Kerry. But a spree killing is a very different thing altogether to those incidents. And it would be the Minister who would get the flak, persona designata or not.

rrpc

Just to echo what Grizzly said: whether it's true or not, there's an article in a national newspaper that says the Minister is going to do this. So now's the time to get in touch with your local TD and put pressure on the Minister to actually deal with the problems of criminal misuse of firearms and not be scapegoating legitimate firearms owners yet again to no real purpose other than 'being seen to do something'.

thehair

BornToKill wrote: »

Thanks Steve; maybe attack was too strong

aaa we are all friends on here:D

SHOOTING SPORTS = PASSION FOR A SPORT OFF SHOOTING:D

Grizzly 45

Maybe it might also be helpful to point out,that there was a fair bit of human error on the part of the Finnish police as well.So for somones incompetance 1000 odd kilometers away,does that mean we in Ireland have to suffer?

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Maybe it might also be helpful to point out,that there was a fair bit of human error on the part of the Finnish police as well.So for somones incompetance 1000 odd kilometers away,does that mean we in Ireland have to suffer?

Was this not mooted a while back? I seem to recall a similar if not exactly the same statement from the Minister some time back which would mean Finland has nothing to do with this.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

Was this not mooted a while back? I seem to recall a similar if not exactly the same statement from the Minister some time back which would mean Finland has nothing to do with this.

___________________________________________________________________

If so rrpc we should have been taking heed of the warnings, look at the responses on boards last week, re the shooting sports policing its self.

For respected people in the sport to say we can't trust anyone in the sport not even oneself to police the sport, doesn't instill much confidence in us.



Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

___________________________________________________________________

If so rrpc we should have been taking heed of the warnings, look at the responses on boards last week, re the shooting sports policing its self.

For respected people in the sport to say we can't trust anyone in the sport not even oneself to police the sport, doesn't instill much confidence in us.
Sikamick

You're misrepresenting what Sparks said quite egregiously. He said you can't trust anyone with the kind of power you were proposing, I would echo that sentiment. Otherwise how come we get to re-elect our government every five years?

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

You're misrepresenting what Sparks said quite egregiously. He said you can't trust anyone with the kind of power you were proposing, I would echo that sentiment. Otherwise how come we get to re-elect our government every five years?

___________________________________________________________________

rrpc you and others misrepresented what I said/posted, I did not say give total power to one individual, also I did not say that they should govern for time and memorial.

Basic logic tells you that no governing body committee should be in place continuously, and it, a (Governing body is answerable to its members). If the sport does not police itself then we will end up being policed by the powers that be.

The idea of a governing body similar to the FCP (made up of NGBS,DOJ,Garda and who ever) with some Powers could have saved a lot of people a lot of grief in this sport and I am not only talking about DTSC.

Sikamick

PS I did not mention Sparks in my posting you did in your responce, I have great respect for him and he would be one person I would /could trust to sit on this type of committee.

marluc

got my licence, got my article 7, just waiting on delivery.

should i cancel it and save myself the hassle?

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

___________________________________________________________________

rrpc you and others misrepresented what I said/posted, I did not say give total power to one individual, also I did not say that they should govern for time and memorial.

Giving power to a group does not mitigate against anyone in that group from exercising that power. You also misquoted Sparks who did not say that he couldn't trust anyone to police our sport, he patently does so seeing as he supports the NTSA committee for one. You were going far further than policing, you were giving powers that the government does not even have. Hell, CAB doesn't even have the powers you were suggesting.

Basic logic tells you that no governing body committee should be in place continuously, and it, a (Governing body is answerable to its members). If the sport does not police itself then we will end up being policed by the powers that be.

.Speak for yourself please. What knowledge do you have of how for example the NTSA governs its sports? Do not make sweeping general statements that have no basis in fact.

The idea of a governing body similar to the FCP (made up of NGBS,DOJ,Garda and who ever) with some Powers could have saved a lot of people a lot of grief in this sport and I am not only talking about DTSC.

The FCP has no pwers and is purely consultative. It is not a governing body and quite frankly umbrella bodies that purport to represent different sports do not in my view work, there are too many conflicting interests.

PS I did not mention Sparks in my posting you did in your responce, I have great respect for him and he would be one person I would /could trust to sit on this type of committee.

You quoted him almost verbatim if somewhat incorrectly paraphrased. No-one else made a comparable statement on that thread.

Sparks wrote:

I wouldn't trust anyone in the sport with that much authority, and I include myself in that assessment; and

Red Renard

Like the nervous groom on his wedding night:eek: it takes a bit of groping around before the correct gear is found. Don't panic yet! who knows what options have been presented to the Minister.

Grizzly 45

marluc wrote: »

got my licence, got my article 7, just waiting on delivery.

should i cancel it and save myself the hassle?

HELL NO!!!Even if you got it on the last day of the last hour of July 31st 200?.You would at least have the pleasure of being able to fire it or use it up till that time.Dont let the BS***TDS grind you down.The more liscense holders out there shooting the better for us as a whole.

Jonty

I'll agree with Grizz on that one. I for one think that if a ban on small arms is coming, who knows where it'll stop? I mean could it go back to the days that a .22/250 was the biggest round for stalking? Dumb politicians should learn to differentiate between legit responsible people and scummers who are up to no good.

Hell, If Aherne takes this stance, he can come down to my house and what will he think when he sees all the firearms in my house?? Not Jonty must be a responsible citizen if the Gardai are willing to license all these firarms for him, but as usual in Ireland he'd be thinking "um this guy is a potential criminal".

The main point I'm making here is that once you legally possess a firearm in this country, you are no longer a responible citizen but a "potential criminal".

I don't shoot pistol, I wouldn't mind trying, but I'll back ye lads till the end. We've all got to stick together on this one.

A lot of this bull is stemming from the Government diverting flak from the economy. Its scare tactics.

Rant over.


Regards,

Jonty

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

rrpc you and others misrepresented what I said/posted, I did not say give total power to one individual, also I did not say that they should govern for time and memorial.

No, you didn't - but the degree of power you were suggesting that we invest in a governing committee was simply unprecedented, not in the history of our sport, but in the history of any sport, or indeed any activity at all in this country.

Basic logic tells you that no governing body committee should be in place continuously

Indeed, but given the way in which some of our governing bodies were run in the past two decades, can you really say that we could depend on good governance? See, that's the problem - you're depending on the committee being the kind of people who would break their backs to see fairness done, but you have no way of overseeing their efforts and no way to challange their rulings if they were to make bad ones, and there were, in short, no checks and balances in the system at all.

If the sport does not police itself then we will end up being policed by the powers that be.

I fear it may well be too late to be worrying about that.

The idea of a governing body similar to the FCP (made up of NGBS,DOJ,Garda and who ever) with some Powers could have saved a lot of people a lot of grief in this sport and I am not only talking about DTSC.

Thing is, that's the same idea that led to the founding of some of the bodies we've had the most trouble with in the past twenty years.

I did not mention Sparks in my posting you did in your responce, I have great respect for him and he would be one person I would /could trust to sit on this type of committee.

For the record, thank you for the kind words, but when compiling the list of people I wouldn't trust with that sort of authority, I list myself as well.

rrpc wrote: »

You also misquoted Sparks who did not say that he couldn't trust anyone to police our sport, he patently does so seeing as he supports the NTSA committee for one.

Well, yes. But with the appropriate amount of kicking from both outside and inside to keep everyone on the straight and narrow

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Well, yes. But with the appropriate amount of kicking from both outside and inside to keep everyone on the straight and narrow

Nobody said it wa going to be easy

Then again, no system works without appropriate oversight and 'kicking' as you will.

But you take my point that being tarred with the same brush as others gets up the nose slightly.

cavan shooter

Guys, the same week the tragedy is played out in Finland an article in the paper regarding firearms and banning of same and concerns the government has.....

I cant help thinking that we are playing to the press. I can picture an editor picking up the Finnish story and sawing "get me a story", Link it to Finnland. Now show me a politician that wouldn't leap on to the band wagon.

If they want to ban legally held hand guns on the off chance a nut case will do similiar to Finnland, then ban
hurleys,
Kitchen knives,
screw drivers,
petrol and
cars
Access to water i.e piers and lakes etc
for if you look at the statistics 10/1 gets you they have been used in the last number of murder suicides more than firearms

BornToKill

Are you offering 10/1 that over 40 people beat themselves or were beaten to death with hurleys last year? I'd like to take that bet!