Sat4Free/Freesat in Ireland

Zaphod

Kensington wrote: »

All of the ITV and BBC regions are now accessible on the Grundig.

Have you been able to find a factory reset option or an option to change the EPG line-up based on postcode? Or does it appear that NI EPG is "hardwired" into the receiver?

Kensington

Zaphod wrote: »

Have you been able to find a factory reset option or an option to change the EPG line-up based on postcode? Or does it appear that NI EPG is "hardwired" into the receiver?

Damn, knew there was something else I was meant to check out - will get back to you on this one

copacetic

Kensington wrote: »

Damn, knew there was something else I was meant to check out - will get back to you on this one

as I mentioned above the freesat version has the option under:
settings > first time install.

redout

"Any channels you add on manually get sent to the very end of the EPG so if you do tune in extra regional variants, Channel 4 will no longer be placed at the end. Just worth mentioning!"

Is this for real ? No added channel section like on Sky ? I am sure that I saw in the menu one that said "added channels" or something along those lines. I am talking about the official box.

FearDark

Whats the difference between freesat and the sattelite dish and reciever I bought in LIDL a few months back.

*still sitting under the stairs in the box

redout

Not a lot. Main difference is that freesat has an EPG like Sky with a 7 day programme guide. New channels automatically appear as opposed to manually tuning with the lidl box. Freesat will also get a couple of exclusive channels in the future that you might not.

FearDark

redout wrote: »

Not a lot. Main difference is that freesat has an EPG like Sky with a 7 day programme guide. New channels automatically appear as opposed to manually tuning with the lidl box. Freesat will also get a couple of exclusive channels in the future that you might not.

Thanks, i've been meaning to ask that question for a while now. Is there a way to set up the channels on the LIDL box so I have BBC1, BBC2, BBC3... in a line as opposed to all over the shop?

TheDriver

think so, try to manual under sorting of channels

Kensington

copacetic wrote: »

as I mentioned above the freesat version has the option under:
settings > first time install.

Checked tonight - menu is there alright but it does not ask for a postcode, it asks for a 4 digit access code to setup - default is 0000. So perhaps the feature is there to add regional variants but for the moment the NI EPG version is the only one that can be loaded onto it.

redout wrote:

Is this for real ? No added channel section like on Sky ? I am sure that I saw in the menu one that said "added channels" or something along those lines. I am talking about the official box.

Added channels are assigned programme slots at the end of the EPG - they're not put into an "Other Channels" menu like on a sky digibox.

Zaphod

So the boxes could potentially have a customised EPG specifically for ROI, with RTÉ1/2 & TG4 listed and not accessible with a UK Freesat receiver.

copacetic

Kensington wrote: »

Checked tonight - menu is there alright but it does not ask for a postcode, it asks for a 4 digit access code to setup - default is 0000. So perhaps the feature is there to add regional variants but for the moment the NI EPG version is the only one that can be loaded onto it.

the std box asks you for your passcode too, but then it gives you the option of entering your postcode. what do you see after you enter your passcode? std box has a big freesat logo and two fields, one for postcode, other for screen type (16:9 or whatever)

So the boxes could potentially have a customised EPG specifically for ROI, with RTÉ1/2 & TG4 listed and not accessible with a UK Freesat receiver.

No, they won't be available outside sky system

Zaphod

copacetic wrote: »

No, they won't be available outside sky system

It's perfectly feasible to have the channels transmitted outside of Sky/NDS. Whether RTÉ pursue it or not is another question.

copacetic

Zaphod wrote: »

It's perfectly feasible to have the channels transmitted outside of Sky/NDS. Whether RTÉ pursue it or not is another question.

I didn't say it wasn't feasible, I said it will never happen.

Kensington

Zaphod wrote: »

So the boxes could potentially have a customised EPG specifically for ROI, with RTÉ1/2 & TG4 listed and not accessible with a UK Freesat receiver.

RTE going FTA isn't going to happen. Rights issues are a big stopper for them being able to broadcast in the clear to what is potentially 50million+ people , in the strong ROI/UK footprint of 2D, when they currently buy in programmes for a market of approx. 5million people. Besides, under the current agreements, Sky pay for the annual transponder leasing costs for both RTEs, TV3 and TG4 aswell as giving them prime EPG slots on SkyGuide (101-104). In turn, they encrypt the four channels using NDS Videoguard and make you have to subscribe to a sky package in order to get access to these channels. In order for RTE to appear on freesat boxes, or go FTA, they would have to pay the annual transponder leasing costs for Astra themselves (thousands per year) and in all likelihood pay for a Sky Guide listing for each channel (tens of thousands per slot, per year), in order to appear on the SkyGuide, something RTE quite simply can't really afford or justify right now. Even to get a FTV type system, they would probably have to pay sky for encryption of the channels (again, tens of thousands, per channel, per year) on top of transponder and EPG carriage fees. At the moment, the current setup suits them both very nicely - RTE essentially get free carriage on 2D and Sky get subscription revenues from the fact RTE are tied into a subscription package.

copacetic wrote:

the std box asks you for your passcode too, but then it gives you the option of entering your postcode. what do you see after you enter your passcode? std box has a big freesat logo and two fields, one for postcode, other for screen type (16:9 or whatever)

You have the "First Time Install" under "Settings". When you choose it, you get a dialog box appear at the bottom right hand corner prompting you for the code, after which you are presented with a screen to choose only your screen type (4:3, 4:3 P&S, 16:9 Widescreen etc.), - no field to choose postcode here - followed by a screen which checks for updated software versions etc. and then the STB scans in the EPG channels. Box doesn't offer the choice of entering postcode at any stage, it defaults to the NI freesat EPG.

Tony

based on what?

copacetic wrote: »

I didn't say it wasn't feasible, I said it will never happen.

copacetic

Tony wrote: »

based on what?

see post above yours for just some of the reasons.

copacetic

Kensington wrote: »

But since they (ITV) actually broadcast so little on HD, it's hard to tell when to check.

Should get the option for the England game coverage from 4.30 today, if you want to check it then.

Bog Butter

Thanks Trevord and Tony for your replies to my post regarding the freesat box last weekend. Much obliged!

Tony

I'm afraid you have missed Zaphods point

copacetic wrote: »

see post above yours for just some of the reasons.

copacetic

Tony wrote: »

I'm afraid you have missed Zaphods point

I don't believe I did. restricting a box to a hardcoded NI postcode isn't secure,besides it still uses the freesat system and the Irish channels won't ever be on it.

I'm sure you will have another cryptic one liner that implies no-one else knows what they are talking about without actually saying anything of substance. Can't wait.

byte

Can't see them ever go FTA myself, but there is nothing to stop them dual-encrypting, using NDS for Sky, and another encryption system like Conax, SECA, etc for other boxes. Of course, any type of encryption is no good for Freesat hardware (except maybe the Humax HD PVR box?).

watty

FearDark wrote: »

Whats the difference between freesat and the sattelite dish and reciever I bought in LIDL a few months back.

*still sitting under the stairs in the box

It's worth paying the 10% to 20% more for a true Freesat box
* Interactive works
* BBC Text
* No retuning when channels change frequency etc.
* All channels added automatically
* Full week Program Guide


Lidl box:
* No interactive. Hard to find Sports alternate screens
* Only Teletext. Most UK channels don't do traditional Teletext but Interactive Text.
* Channels regularly vanish when transponders change. You may need to research on Internet to find new transponder
* Initially many channels missing
* Only now & next program guide. Full weekly guide only applies to some mainland Europe channels (mostly German).
* Essentially for German market, though has English dialogue.

Tony

I made no such implication and if thats the tone you wish to take in the debate I will leave you to it.

copacetic wrote: »

I'm sure you will have another cryptic one liner that implies no-one else knows what they are talking about without actually saying anything of substance. Can't wait.

So is a freeview box different than a freesat box?

GerardKeating

Moonbaby wrote: »

So is a freeview box different than a freesat box?

Yes, FreeView is Digitial Terrestrial television, broadcase from a series of transmitters around the country, basically a digital version of the current anaolgue tv service, which it will replace eventually.

FreeSat is digital television broadcast via satellite.

In theory it is possible to get a box which does both services, such a box needs a satellite connection and connection to a root top aerial.

Bog Butter

So i've decided i would like an HD freesat box. Where is the cheapest place to buy it? Is it the North? If so could someone please confirm the postcode issue for me. Will i need to enter a postcode when i buy it up there?

tipperary

GerardKeating wrote: »

Yes, FreeView is Digitial Terrestrial television, broadcase from a series of transmitters around the country, basically a digital version of the current anaolgue tv service, which it will replace eventually.

FreeSat is digital television broadcast via satellite.

In theory it is possible to get a box which does both services, such a box needs a satellite connection and connection to a root top aerial.

You need to keep in mind that FreeView is the UK digital terrestrial service. 'FreeView' tuners will not work with the forthcoming irish digital terrestrial service. This is also worth noting in relation to TV's, dvd recorders etc.

redout

You can purchase official freesat boxes here from satellite stores but they are more expensive. Power city are selling sat4free boxes, more or lesss the same except with a Northern Ireland postcode locked in.

Bog Butter

redout wrote: »

You can purchase official freesat boxes here from satellite stores but they are more expensive. Power city are selling sat4free boxes, more or lesss the same except with a Northern Ireland postcode locked in.

If I buy one can i just enter in any postcode from the north, say Newry?

redout

You cannot enter one period ! There is a Northern Ireland one in the box by default. Maybe in the future there might be a software download to change this but not at present.

Bog Butter

Thanks Redout. That clarifies it for me. It is off to Newry I go!

The_Conductor

I bought one of the Bush HD boxes in Argos in Belfast a few months back and have decided to upgrade to the Humax HD when the next opportunity arises. The picture quality and ease of use with the Bush is brilliant- but I would like the opportunity to modify the menu structure and programme in my own channels which the Humax offers. There was a HDMI timing issue with the engineering sample I got from Humax a few months back, which I've been told has been rectified- does anyone know anything about this?

Re: setup- mine defaults to London, which is fine for me.

S.

mjsmyth

Good morning,

I thought that with the Bush you could add in non freesat channels and that they went to the end of the epg... Is that not the case?

I am thinking of picking up a HD Bush, but only if that was the case as some of the channels I watch are not on freesat.

mj

The_Conductor

mjsmyth wrote: »

Good morning,

I thought that with the Bush you could add in non freesat channels and that they went to the end of the epg... Is that not the case?

I am thinking of picking up a HD Bush, but only if that was the case as some of the channels I watch are not on freesat.

mj

They are added to the end of the EPG- I think starting with number 3000. You can't modify the EPG order (like you can with some software versions on the Humax). It works fine otherwise though.

Note: HDMI output is brilliant- Scart is however prone to interference from feedthrough devices.

givecredit

smccarrick wrote: »

They are added to the end of the EPG- I think starting with number 3000. You can't modify the EPG order (like you can with some software versions on the Humax). It works fine otherwise though.

Bit of miss information here. You cannot modify the channel order with the humax foxsat in freesat mode. This would be against freesat rules. The only channels you can edit are the BBC1 and BBC 2 regions. For example you can set up freesat box with a london post code but have BBC1 AND BBC 2 NI as your default channels at 101 and 102 and itv london as 103. You cannot change the positions of any other channels.

You can delete channels as you can with a bush, goodmans or grundig.

jaykell

Bought one of the sat4free boxes from Powercity.
Tunes in BBC HD no problem, but only UTV so no ITV HD.
The menu to add channels manually does not let you change the FEC settings (at least not on my box) and even starting from a channel with the correct FEC won't work as the FEC numbers are changed as you enter the frequency!!.
This means you cannot add English ITV regions, so can't get ITV HD that way.
I think it is mentioned in an earlier post that there is a fix in the pipeline to sort out this problem, but it looks deliberate to me rather than a software bug.
I would advise anyone thinking of buying this box to wait until this is all sorted out.

mjsmyth

@jaykell

I think I would be rather upset at not being able to tune in ITV HD. Not because I would miss the content (although HD footie is always good), but because it clearly says it on the website and in store that you can get BBC HD and ITV HD.

mj

TheDriver

you could take it back on these grounds?

jaykell

TheDriver wrote: »

you could take it back on these grounds?

Yeh, I'm going to return it and maybe go to Newry and buy a freesat box.

TheDriver

I'm wondering tho will the humax etc come down in price like the grundig box? Or just buy it off somewhere like satellitesuperstore?

The_Conductor

TheDriver wrote: »

I'm wondering tho will the humax etc come down in price like the grundig box? Or just buy it off somewhere like satellitesuperstore?

At the moment, demand is greater than supply- which would normally tend to lead to maintaining the current price, until competing products become more attractive for consumers......

At least Argos in Belfast are showing a few in stock- for about the first time ever.

lafors

Is there still no date for the Humax HD PVR box?
I see the have a bit more info on their site but no price or release date.

Tony

lafors wrote: »

Is there still no date for the Humax HD PVR box?
.

Apparaently there is a fault in the chipset which has delayed it so far.

Tony

jaykell wrote: »

Yeh, I'm going to return it and maybe go to Newry and buy a freesat box.

Just noticed on the Freesat website (UK)

"* ITV HD is not currently available to STV and UTV viewers" so with the sat4free box locked into a NI postcode the ITV HD will not work unless this changes. Fair play to power city:)

Zaphod

Kensington wrote: »

RTE going FTA isn't going to happen. Rights issues are a big stopper for them being able to broadcast in the clear to what is potentially 50million+ people , in the strong ROI/UK footprint of 2D, when they currently buy in programmes for a market of approx. 5million people. Besides, under the current agreements, Sky pay for the annual transponder leasing costs for both RTEs, TV3 and TG4 aswell as giving them prime EPG slots on SkyGuide (101-104). In turn, they encrypt the four channels using NDS Videoguard and make you have to subscribe to a sky package in order to get access to these channels. In order for RTE to appear on freesat boxes, or go FTA, they would have to pay the annual transponder leasing costs for Astra themselves (thousands per year) and in all likelihood pay for a Sky Guide listing for each channel (tens of thousands per slot, per year), in order to appear on the SkyGuide, something RTE quite simply can't really afford or justify right now. Even to get a FTV type system, they would probably have to pay sky for encryption of the channels (again, tens of thousands, per channel, per year) on top of transponder and EPG carriage fees. At the moment, the current setup suits them both very nicely - RTE essentially get free carriage on 2D and Sky get subscription revenues from the fact RTE are tied into a subscription package.

Yes, they are all very valid reason why RTÉ can't simply go FTA, but I wasn't suggesting that or that they should alter the existing agreement with Sky. They would have to come to some arrangement to restrict viewing in order to satisfy rights holders while maintaining the existing agreement with Sky. But the whole issue of copyright is a grey area.

For example, the notion that transmission of the UK channels from 2D limits their reception to the UK and Ireland is, frankly, a joke. The actual footprint is significantly wider than the official footprint. There is a similar situation with the FTA channels on Badr 4 which have a far higher American film and series content (in English) than RTÉ or the UK terrestrials. The published footprint suggests reception is limited to the Middle East and North Africa but in reality, the channels can be received in the UK and Ireland with 90cm dishes or less. Plus we have the idiotic situation where some of the programming is blocked out by C4 on Sky "for copyright reasons", yet the same programmes can be easily watched via add channels.

So the threshold for copyright holders seems to be that the broadcaster makes a reasonable effort to limit reception or can provide some legal evidence (e.g. footprints) to argue their case.

In the case of Freesat, the interesting channel is ITV-HD. ITV-HD is not transmitted from 2D but from Eurobird 1 whose footprint is focussed on central Europe. In order to avoid any rights issues, and to limit the channel to the UK, the video PIDs are stripped from the PAT and instead transmitted in the EPG stream. So a digibox or a FTA receiver cannot directly tune in ITV-HD. Neither can a Freesat receiver, but it can pull in the approriate PIDs from the EPG data stream. So you have a form of pseudo-encryption which limits the channel to Freesat receivers and effectively to the UK. And you can limit reception further to specific boxes - the example being that the "red button" only appears on ITV but not on UTV. So far this approach seems to have satisfied the rights holders, who might be more worried than usual given that the content is soccer and American films in HD.

One possibility for RTÉ is to transmit the 3 channels in a similar manner with the PIDs stripped from the PAT/PMT and instead sent along with the EPG. With the Sat4Free boxes, you can have a customised EPG with placeholders for the 3 channels inserted - this EPG would not be available on a Freesat box because there would be no corresponding postcode.

There is an issue of cost, with RTÉ having to hire transponder space for the 3 channels. However, they could just as easily hire space on Eurobird as Astra - no need for the "premium" space on 2D after all. You're looking at ~3.7Mbps x3 or 11Mbps in MPEG2 DVB-S currently. Using MPEG4 you could knock off close on 50%. And with DVB-S2 you could save another 30%. So you're down to under 4Mbps. You could bring that to close on 3Mbps with a 544x576 resolution and slight reduction in image quality - the Irish channels have some headroom there anyway.

When you compare the cost of satellite bandwidth with the cost of achieving 95%+ DTT coverage, the economics of the former quickly win out. Or simply drop "Diaspora TV" and use the funds from that.

There is a second approach which requires RTÉ to work in conjunction with Grundig but would entail hardly any additional running costs for RTÉ. Firstly, Grundig would need to modify the firmware on the Sat4Free boxes to incorporate the appropriate encryption software - this would be in their own interests as they would ultimately sell more boxes. Something like BISS would be sufficient as it is cheap to licence from the EBU and doesn't require a smartcard to work. Then you piggyback the second encryption layer on top of the current stream on 10744. As most consumer receiver do not have BISS encryption, you've limited reception to the Sat4Free boxes.

Sky may well bitch and moan at either of the above, but what are they going to do? They might refuse to carry the Irish channels on their platform or pay for the uplink costs, but no RTÉ on your Sky subscription would give a very strong competitive advantage to UPC. Sky need RTÉ more than RTÉ need Sky.

Tony

Excellent post, as more and more people switch to either Freesat or Sat4free I see pressure mounting on RTE to do this as their advertising revenue may suffer.

redout

Tony wrote: »

Excellent post, as more and more people switch to either Freesat or Sat4free I see pressure mounting on RTE to do this as their advertising revenue may suffer.

How will RTE advertising revenue suffer ? Do you mean people will abandon RTE for freesat ?

Tony

redout wrote: »

How will RTE advertising revenue suffer ? Do you mean people will abandon RTE for freesat ?

There are an increasing number of people (from my experience anyway) who are ditching cable and mmds but not replacing their RTE service with an aerial. Even the perception that RTE are losing viewers will alarm advertisers bearing in mind they can switch their business to Ch4 or UTV.

redout

I understand your point and it makes sense. I also want to raise the question about power city selling the Sat4free boxes and some people thinking that they (Grundig) have BBC/ITV permission. Well if that is so then could someone please explain to me the whole channel 5 situation as regards rights issue. As Channel 5 has an imminent arrival on freesat and as we all know channel 5 does not broadcast in Ireland.

byte

Worst case scenario for Five would be to add it manually, where it'd be placed near the top of the EPG?