Proficiency course

Rossenarra

I attended the NARGC Proficiency course in The Parkway Hotel in Dunmanway on Sat…..must say fabulous course. 60 people attended and the first half of the day consisted of all aspects of safety, relevant legislation, membership entitlements and caring for gun dog. Second half we all brought to clay pigeon shooting venue and were shown shooting technique. All and all a very informative and enjoyable day. Good to see so many young people there (teenagers) and all cost 5 Euro……

cavan shooter

I attended one years ago (22 to be precise) and then more recently 2006. It is a must for all shooters and I would reccommend it should be done by everyone into game shooting, if I am right the €5 covers the lunch

ak51535

i attended the NARGC course just outside mullinahone in tipperary, good course very informative cost me 30 euro.... money well spent, went on the range afterwards and got a few shots off.

pullandbang

There's another one on Sat 11th October in Newgrange Lodge, Donore, Co Meath @ 11.00 and continuing after lunch in Duleek Clay Shooting Grounds. Under 18's free, everyone else €15.

thomasmoore

How do i get further details about the proficiency course in Donore, Co. Meath next week? Is it organised by NARGC as well? Is membership a requirement to do the course? Out of interest, is there any certification for doing the course?

pullandbang

thomasmoore wrote: »

How do i get further details about the proficiency course in Donore, Co. Meath next week? Is it organised by NARGC as well? Is membership a requirement to do the course? Out of interest, is there any certification for doing the course?

It is NARGC - I just heard it through my local gun club. I'm not sure if membership is a requirement - you should check with NARGC. I've never done the course so I'm not sure about any certs.

Rossenarra

pullandbang wrote: »

It is NARGC - I just heard it through my local gun club. I'm not sure if membership is a requirement - you should check with NARGC. I've never done the course so I'm not sure about any certs.

You don't have to be a member just register as soon as possible......also you do get a certificatre at the end of it

thomasmoore

Are there any firearms proficiency courses specifically for rifle shooting?

BOBTHESHOOTER

thomasmoore wrote: »

Are there any firearms proficiency courses specifically for rifle shooting?

If you are interesed in a basic rifle course, these will soon be available at Hilltop Sporting Club and other clubs such as BRC, in June of 2008 12 individuals took part in a NRA Certiifed Intructors Training Course at Hilltop, all qualifed as NRA Certified Instructors (Pistol), in early November they wil participate in the Instructors Course that will qualify them to instruct in Basic Rifle.

Details can be found on www.fass.ie

Sikamick

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

If you are interesed in a basic rifle course, these will soon be available at Hilltop Sporting Club and other clubs such as BRC, in June of 2008 12 individuals took part in a NRA Certiifed Intructors Training Course at Hilltop, all qualifed as NRA Certified Instructors (Pistol), in early November they wil participate in the Instructors Course that will qualify them to instruct in Basic Rifle.

Details can be found on www.fass.ie

Also DTSC.

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sikamick wrote: »

Also DTSC.

Club Course or certified course?

Sparks

Dealing with accreditations and courses can be tricky Bob. I can think of at least one case where even the instructor on the course wasn't up to speed with the accreditations needed to run his own course!

Besides, I can't think of any body in this state other than the NCTC who are recognised as being able to accredit courses at this time, and only the NTSA are rolling out an accredited course with them (I believe the ICPSA have one in preperation as well, but I'm not 100% sure of that).

prodg

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

If you are interesed in a basic rifle course, these will soon be available at Hilltop Sporting Club and other clubs such as BRC, in June of 2008 12 individuals took part in a NRA Certiifed Intructors Training Course at Hilltop, all qualifed as NRA Certified Instructors (Pistol), in early November they wil participate in the Instructors Course that will qualify them to instruct in Basic Rifle.

Details can be found on www.fass.ie

bob no disrespect but i done one of the nra range officer courses as did others that i know of and it wasent worth the paper it was written on.
also i done one of the pistol nra courses and there is a problem with that certificate as well because of a logo being put on it. Is the FASS a vat registered company. I dont see a vat number on their website.

Red Renard

The NRAI and the SSAI do a very reasonably price Irish accredited
certified courses in pistol and rifle contact for details.:)

Sparks

Not that I want to run down anyone, but when you say "Irish accredited" - accredited by whom, exactly?

Bananaman

Sparks,

I do not like the tone you are taking.

I am one of the people who did the instructor training in Pistol proficiency @ Hilltop.

I am also one of the people who will be doing my instructor training in Rifle proficiency @ Hilltop.

The course I did is accredited by the NRA - whether you like it or not they have some pedigree in this area and their courses, instructor training and counselor training are world renowned.

My purpose for doing the instructor training was so that I can ensure I am following a specific curriculum, and am certified to do so, when training people in basic handling, safety, etc.

I happen to find their course material, from the trainees perspective very good. It does what it says on the tin: "Basic Pistol Proficiency", "Basic Rifle proficiency", etc..

It does not impart the skills of Annie Oakley, it does not impart the wisdom of the ages on people - it simply ensures that they have been provided with the relevant information, had it demonstrated to them and instructed in how to do it, by people certified to do so and finally had their assimilation of that knowledge tested.

This instructor course was open to anybody, subject to prior experience and a limit of participants, regardless of what organisation they may or may not have been a member of.

The resulting proficiency courses, in a number of clubs, were also open to anybody, regardless of what organisation they are, were or will be, a member of.

Everyone who did those courses said that they found the course very useful, many were surprised that there was so little actual shooting involved but that we covered the majority of handling etc in the classroom and also the more mundane stuff such as cleaning etc. Happily so as they welcomed instruction in those areas.

I'm sure that they, as I, do not care, specifically, that it was an NRA accredited course. The simple fact remains that the NRA instructor was available, willing and very helpful in facilitating the instructor training which in turn facilitated all of those people getting their basic proficiency course.

Bottom line - the courses are available, plenty of people have done them, if people want to do a proficiency course they can simply contact their club, Hilltop or fass.ie and find out when the next one is.

The other qualified instructors and I have all given considerable time to do the instructor training and provide the proficiency courses - all on a no-profit basis - and I, for one, will take offense at anyone slagging off these courses.

B'Man

Ned Muldhoon

We have run numerous NRA courses in conjunction with FASS and all members & Management who have attended have nothing but praise for the instructors / content etc.
A number of our members have also attended the NRA instructors course who are now running NRA basic pistol and rifle courses on the range for members.

Sikamick

Red Renard wrote: »

The NRAI and the SSAI do a very reasonably price Irish accredited
certified courses in pistol and rifle contact for details.:)

_________________________________________________________________


Red Renard who runs these course, is it the SSAI or the NGB'S, I did here at an NASR&PC AGM that they were going to run courses.

The NARGC run some great courses.

Interesting question?. what the price difference is between the different groups who run courses, also should there be a charge at all for Safety courses. DTSC run their courses for their members at no charge and they are available to anyone that would like do the courses.

Sikamick

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Sparks,
I do not like the tone you are taking.

It's not about tone B'man, it's about a specific, fixable problem that isn't of our making. I would urge you not to personalise it when it's an impersonal problem.

The course I did is accredited by the NRA - whether you like it or not they have some pedigree in this area and their courses, instructor training and counselor training are world renowned.

Indeed - but not yet recognised by the Irish State. Which is a problem if you've got a less-than-sympathetic Super on your hands looking for a proficiency course.

My purpose for doing the instructor training was so that I can ensure I am following a specific curriculum, and am certified to do so, when training people in basic handling, safety, etc.

But you're certified by a body with no Irish recognition from the authorities. Which means that the actual course material will be fine - you''ll learn the basics, they're the same anywhere - but the Super may not accept the bit of paper at the end of the course.

I happen to find their course material, from the trainees perspective very good. It does what it says on the tin: "Basic Pistol Proficiency", "Basic Rifle proficiency", etc..

I know, I've seen it and yes, for basic safety it's perfectly adaquate. That's not the issue. The issue is that unless and until the accreditation is recognised by the Irish state, then the highest NRA awarded certification is worth as much as that given out by Joe Cowboy out in the depths of nowhereville. Maybe your super will accept it, maybe he won't, but if he won't you can't complain that the course has any accreditation authority in this state.

Seriously, this is a problem that has taken decades to solve for awarding and recognising professional accreditations like college degrees - you can't expect it to just "not show up" in this field now that more and more Supers are looking for a proficiency course. Sooner or later, we're going to need an Irish accredited course - and either we arrange for recognition of foreign accreditations by the Irish state or we have to do something homegrown; but either way, ignoring this problem will only lead to problems.

Bottom line

The bottom line is this:

• There is no course held in Ireland today whose accreditation is accepted and recognised by the Irish state, and which every Super must accept.
• If you're asked by your Super to do a course to get your cert, ask which one he wants you to do first.
• If you're going to be asked by your Superintendent to do a proficiency course and you do a course that's claiming to be accredited and then try to force the Super to accept it, he can easily refuse to do so, and that leaves you out of pocket by quite an amount for some of the above-mentioned courses, and we've already seen lawsuits brought by people who've been quite disgruntled by discovering an accreditation problem with their course.

I, for one, will take offense at anyone slagging off these courses.

Then I suggest you take up the matter of accreditation recognition with the FCP at your earliest convenience. Getting offended at having fact pointed out to you in here will only result in your being offended at a perceived slight.

Sparks

Ned Muldhoon wrote: »

We have run numerous NRA courses in conjunction with FASS and all members & Management who have attended have nothing but praise for the instructors / content etc.
A number of our members have also attended the NRA instructors course who are now running NRA basic pistol and rifle courses on the range for members.

That's grand Ned. Now, what has any of that got to do with the recognition of those courses by the Irish state?
I'll save you the trouble - it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.

In other words, you're thinking I'm saying your course is crap - I'm not. I'm saying that it's not recognised in Ireland. That's completely a seperate issue. If you have no problems with Superintendents not recognising your course, then this is a non-issue to you. If, however, you do - or if the DoJ later demands everyone do a recognised course regardless of those they've already done - then it is an issue.

pullandbang

Sparks wrote: »

(I believe the ICPSA have one in preperation as well, but I'm not 100% sure of that).

It's up and running.

Sparks

Excellent!
One of the other handy things about the NCTC-accredited courses which I forgot to mention is that the ISC and the OCI and all the other sports groups (LSPs and so forth) recognise the NCTC accreditation (and they'll be VTAC-accredited soon as well), which means that it's easier to get grant money to fund the running of the course (or for local clubs to get local grants to send their people to these courses), which means that it's not as expensive for shooters as it would be otherwise (sometimes it can even wind up being free).

Ned Muldhoon

Sparks - I take your point on the recognition, but my problem is very simple.
I have a member with no experience of firearms etc - he / she completes a probationary period and is then eligible for applying for a pistol / rifle / shotgun. Even after showing up every weekend / weekday I would not regard that person as having suitable knowledge of safety and range protocol.

To negate this issue we approached FASS with a view to having everyone at the same basic standard where they are familiar with the firearm and have a sound knowledge of range rules and protocol.

To date, this has worked very well and we now have a waiting list of members to attend the NRA courses.

I am not worried about recognition at the moment - just safety and proficiency.

Once someone has completed the course over a full day they can use a firearm under the direction on a range officer (NRA certified).

Club courses are all very well, but we've found the NRA basic pistol etc to be very well formatted and delivered to a very high standard. The instructors usually spend two days prep. for the course and the students will have completed pre-reqs. before attending the course.

Sparks

Ned Muldhoon wrote: »

Sparks - I take your point on the recognition, but my problem is very simple.
I have a member with no experience of firearms etc - he / she completes a probationary period and is then eligible for applying for a pistol / rifle / shotgun. Even after showing up every weekend / weekday I would not regard that person as having suitable knowledge of safety and range protocol.

:eek:
You'd let someone finish out a probationary period knowing they're not safe???
Remind me not to shoot on your range anytime soon!
The point of a probationary period is that it doesn't end until you judge the person is safe or you ask them to leave!

To negate this issue we approached FASS with a view to having everyone at the same basic standard where they are familiar with the firearm and have a sound knowledge of range rules and protocol.
...
Club courses are all very well, but we've found the NRA basic pistol etc to be very well formatted and delivered to a very high standard. The instructors usually spend two days prep. for the course and the students will have completed pre-reqs. before attending the course.

The thing is Ned, all you're running there is a club course. There's nothing at all about it which makes it in any way better (or worse) than a club course. The accreditation it would enjoy in the US simply does not apply here, it's not recognised formally (having "heard of" the NRA doesn't mean the course is formally recognised). This means that it's just exactly the same as if they'd gone to any other club and been shown how to shoot safely by some random member, the way all clubs have been doing it for years. All you're doing is contracting out the work to someone else.

Now, don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong with that approach. We've been trying something similar ourselves with the beginners course we run in WTSC, and with good results. But you can't pretend it's something it's not, especially when money's involved. It's only asking for trouble if you do, you wind up knee-deep in rows, fraud allegations, probably in trips to the small claims courts or district courts, and generally a heap of trouble.

As I said above - accreditation is a tricky one, and it's wholly seperate from the merits of the actual course itself.

Ned Muldhoon

Sparks,

I wouldn't regard anyone who completed a specified probationary period on a civilian range as having adequate knowledge regardless of professional background (Army or Garda). I have given enough firearms courses over the last 20 years to know the difference.

When someone completes the NRA course and pass they get a cert, they understand basic handling and safety and range rules. Everyone has a common starting point.

As for monetary gain - the students are aware of the course certification and it's meaning in this country, they pay for student packs and required ammunition for the course. All instructor and range time of free. (we even throw in lunch FOC:-) It's in our own interest as well to ensure these standard are attained.

As for you shooting on our range - I never remember inviting you!

Bananaman

I am not worried about recognition at the moment - just safety and proficiency.

Here Here

We did not do the instructor training nor did anyone sit the proficiency courses because their super mandated that they did. As it turns out, almost everyone I was doing the pistol proficiency course with already has their own license, some smallbore, some fullbore - they just wanted to complete a standard course in a formal ay to reinforce what they have learned in the club in an informal way. Like I said, as an example, many were happily surprised that we went through our own cleaning regimes with them.

People wanted instruction, I wanted to give it to them, I wanted an instructor rating to do so and the NRA instructor course was available for me to get the Instructor rating in every discipline I was interested in, so I did.

On the issue of cost - we run all the courses at cost - trainees are only charged to cover the cost of course material, use of the facilities (classrooms and range), lunch, equipment and ammunition and most of those are a nominal amount. There is no profit margin in this.

Sure, in the fullness of time there may well be a requirement that courses be sat - I'm sure that won't happen until the ABC affiliated to the XYZ and with a member sitting on the committee of the DEF ensure that their course is in place and then push for it through the FCP. More power to them but I'll probably be too old to get up the stairs to the classroom by then so this is what we have now.
If it turns out that the NRA course is recognised as a valid proficiency course then all the better as we already have a large number of certified instructors, with experience, in country.

Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P.
-Adrian Cronauer

B'Man

Sparks

Ned Muldhoon wrote: »

I wouldn't regard anyone who completed a specified probationary period on a civilian range as having adequate knowledge regardless of professional background (Army or Garda). I have given enough firearms courses over the last 20 years to know the difference.

You're missing my point Ned. I said that you don't get out of a probationary period without being judged as safe. The implication is that during the probationary period, you actively train the person involved - not that you just let them sit about and absorb bad habits through osmosis!
The point of a probationary period is to train and examine someone before giving them the full run of the range. Letting them out the far end of the probationary period before you think they're safe is just plain unsafe.

When someone completes the NRA course and pass they get a cert, they understand basic handling and safety and range rules. Everyone has a common starting point.

For the third time, I'm saying nothing about their understanding or the merits of the course content. I'm talking about that cert you give them. I'm saying that in Ireland, it's not recognised, and so it's not worth the paper it's printed on. Go to the US and it'd be a completely different story; but we're not in the US. Here, as far as the law and the authorities and the Super are concerned, your bit of paper is backed solely by your club. Nothing more.

As for monetary gain

I'm not interested in discussing that. Charging for a course to cover costs is fine by me, and I'd include instructor and range time in those costs (to a reasonable amount, obviously). I mentioned it above solely in the context of sourcing grant aid and in the additional potential it brings in for arguments and problems caused when the certification is found to be worthless in this state. There are related concerns to do with monopolies and so forth, yes, but we've not even mentioned them here, and they're easily addressed by going down the ISO route.

As for you shooting on our range - I never remember inviting you!

That's okay Ned, you weren't the one who did.

Ned Muldhoon

Sparks - I must be missing the point - but to reiterate

- Don't care about certificate recognition - it's the content that counts at this stage. - Is there a pistol course that is recognised at this time?

- We're happy with the content, instructors and level of competancy achieved by students.

As far as I am concerned - that's all that counts.

Either way - this ends my contribution to this thread as it appears to be going nowhere.

BTW: all range invitations would go through me or the other range officer- never remember seeing your name!

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

We did not do the instructor training nor did anyone sit the proficiency courses because their super mandated that they did. As it turns out, almost everyone I was doing the pistol proficiency course with already has their own license, some smallbore, some fullbore - they just wanted to complete a standard course in a formal ay to reinforce what they have learned in the club in an informal way. Like I said, as an example, many were happily surprised that we went through our own cleaning regimes with them.

And that's fine. For the fourth time :rolleyes:

People wanted instruction, I wanted to give it to them, I wanted an instructor rating to do so

See, that's the problem. You don't need the NRA instructor rating to teach the NRA course. You just need it to issue a cert at the end of the course that the NRA will recognise. That's the whole thing about certification - it's about recognising that the course was run to a standard set by a third party who is recognised by both you and the person you're presenting your certificate to. In the US, where it's recognised, the NRA cert is grand. Here, where's it's not, you can have issues in precisely the situations where certification is designed to eliminate issues.

Look, if you just want to learn how to do something, certification does not come up. Just learn. No issues involved.

If you want to have a situation where person A learns something to a standard that is acceptable to person B (whether this be a club wanting a proficiency level for its members or a Super wanting one for a licence or an insurance company wanting one for its policy or whatever), then certification becomes an issue. The standard, time-tested solution, which is now standardised by ISO 17024, is to have a third party, C, who runs the course. A and B both recognise C, so when C says A is certified, B accepts this.
If B has never heard of C, then A has a problem.

In this specific case, if you do an NRA course in Ireland, you will learn what the course has to teach and may come out knowing more at the far end, so you've gained regardless - but the certificate you get at the end is not recognised. For a club, this is not hard to fix, you just get the club to accept NRA certification. For the Super or the Insurance company, that would be harder to fix (though the fix is the same).

Alternatively, you could get a home-grown course recognised by the state bodies (like the HCAP is, for example). Get it certified under the ISO 17024 system and then anyone can run it, be they private individual, club, commercial company or whatever, and the certificate is recognised by the Super at the end of the day regardless. This would be something that the FCP would be invaluable for, and now that the IPSA is a part of the SSAI which is on the FCP, there's no longer any obstacle to this sort of thing.

On the issue of cost

As I said above, I'm not interested in getting into that except from the grant aid point of view (if you can get the state to pay for a course the state wants you to do, I'm all for that). And noone expects anyone to run courses for free in the middle of a recession. (Yes, there's the caveat that noone expects someone to get rich off of running a course that is made mandatory and that's only available in one place, but surely that's not the case in Ireland, right?)

Sure, in the fullness of time there may well be a requirement that courses be sat

Actually, it's already here for several people whose Supers have insisted. That's a legal requirement right there, not a favour or a reassurance, and it carries with it all the implications of a legal requirement, ie. certification.

If it turns out that the NRA course is recognised as a valid proficiency course then all the better as we already have a large number of certified instructors, with experience, in country.

It won't "turn out" to be that way though B'man - it will have to be worked on by the relevant NGBs. It won't just "happen" and can't be just ignored.

Sparks

Ned Muldhoon wrote: »

- Don't care about certificate recognition - it's the content that counts at this stage. - Is there a pistol course that is recognised at this time?
- We're happy with the content, instructors and level of competancy achieved by students.

*bangs head slowly off the desk*
Okay. For the fifth time.
The content of the courses is not the issue here.
Is not. Has not been. Will not be. It's an ex-issue. It has ceased to be. In fact, it never was.

The certification you give out at the end is the issue.
It's not recognised by any authority (bar your club) in this country.
That can be fixed, and should be fixed.
That's the point.

And it's not just your course - it's all the courses (bar the ICPSA's NCTC-accredited course and the NCTC-accredited one the NTSA is rolling out later this year, both of which are coaching not proficiency courses, and bar the HCAP which is basicly the only recognised accredited proficiency course in the country right now that I know of).

BTW: all range invitations would go through me or the other range officer- never remember seeing your name!

Then you'd have to talk to the folks who are issuing invitations without consulting you so.

prodg

Hi sparks. This is my first time to reply to any of your threads.

I totally agree with you and any and all of these courses should be

regulated right accross the board from all the associations that are

involved in running them and all clubs need to be singing of the same

hyme sheet and as for the nra courses, I have my pistol and revolver

handling course done and my nra range safety officer course also, and to

be honest, they cost me a lot of money and hold no accredidation if i

want to use them in other clubs when i go to competitions