Proficiency course

BOBTHESHOOTER

prodg wrote: »

bob no disrespect but i done one of the nra range officer courses as did others that i know of and it wasent worth the paper it was written on.
also i done one of the pistol nra courses and there is a problem with that certificate as well because of a logo being put on it. Is the FASS a vat registered company. I dont see a vat number on their website.

Wow!!!! A person asked a question about available courses and all I did was point them in the direction of one way of doing one.

I have done the courses and I found them great value for money, with respect to not being worth the paper they are written on and logos..... When I presented my cert to the Gardai as part of my application they were delighted to see it.

I cannot believe that a simple piece of advice would cause such a storm, I think the FCP have enough presently on their plate than to be accrediting courses, from my inderstanding of the current situation they would be reluctant to accredit anything as it may have with it liability back to them.

In any case I got a cert, enjoyed the course as did the other people on the course, it helped me get my firearms cert and provided me with more information that I had gotten anywhere else.

With respect to comments above by this chap, logos and VAT numbers, clearly his inferrence is designed to do some sort of damage. Sounds to me like he is not a very pleasant character, if he did not get any good out of one of the NRA courses why did he persist and do two!

Sparks

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

with respect to not being worth the paper they are written on and logos..... When I presented my cert to the Gardai as part of my application they were delighted to see it.

The problem does not arise when they're happy to see it Bob - it arises when you're dealing with a "problem" Superintendent who doesn't want to take any degree of risk whatsoever and will seek a recognised course. At that point, you find that the paper isn't worth the ink.

I cannot believe that a simple piece of advice would cause such a storm, I think the FCP have enough presently on their plate than to be accrediting courses, from my inderstanding of the current situation they would be reluctant to accredit anything as it may have with it liability back to them.

You might think so - but this is one of the prime examples of the kind of thing that would be handled by the kind of body the FCP could grow into in the coming years, and by taking it on, they would be taking that first step from being a simple advisory body formed for the sole purpose of implementing the CJA2006, to being something more permanent and useful to shooters.

it helped me get my firearms cert

Would you have gotten the firearms cert had you not done the course? Was your proficiency cert in any way questioned or even sought by your super?

With respect to comments above by this chap, logos and VAT numbers, clearly his inferrence is designed to do some sort of damage. Sounds to me like he is not a very pleasant character, if he did not get any good out of one of the NRA courses why did he persist and do two!

Up to now, this thread has stayed far away from the "play the man" school of thought Bob. Don't take it there, it would be breaking the charter to do so. If this chap has had issues with the courses he's done, he's entitled to report that and it's healthy for the community as a whole to do that. What you infer from what he states is down entirely to you.

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sparks wrote: »

The problem does not arise when they're happy to see it Bob - it arises when you're dealing with a "problem" Superintendent who doesn't want to take any degree of risk whatsoever and will seek a recognised course. At that point, you find that the paper isn't worth the ink.You might think so - but this is one of the prime examples of the kind of thing that would be handled by the kind of body the FCP could grow into in the coming years, and by taking it on, they would be taking that first step from being a simple advisory body formed for the sole purpose of implementing the CJA2006, to being something more permanent and useful to shooters. Would you have gotten the firearms cert had you not done the course? Was your proficiency cert in any way questioned or even sought by your super?Up to now, this thread has stayed far away from the "play the man" school of thought Bob. Don't take it there, it would be breaking the charter to do so. If this chap has had issues with the courses he's done, he's entitled to report that and it's healthy for the community as a whole to do that. What you infer from what he states is down entirely to you.

Points taken, thanks for that, personally I just hate when there are remarks like this in a public forum, when one referes to no VAT number it is fairly clear in my mind that there is an agenda. Own personal view. I suppose in fairness he could have been interested in writing off the VAT on the course if he is himself registered for VAT, I paid €25.00 for my course so the VAT rebate would have been about €5.00, pay for the sandwiches in any case.

In any case I made my points known, in my view the cert did help my application as the supers secretary phoned me to ask about the content of the course, was very pleased with what was covered, so in my view it was a help.

Sparks

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

when one referes to no VAT number it is fairly clear in my mind that there is an agenda. Own personal view. I suppose in fairness he could have been interested in writing off the VAT on the course if he is himself registered for VAT, I paid €25.00 for my course so the VAT rebate would have been about €5.00, pay for the sandwiches in any case.

Or he could be looking for the VAT number as part of a grant application for his LSP - if you had ten people doing the course, the €250 is worth the ten minutes filling in an application form. Or he could be wondering is this a franchise company or a sole trader. Or he could be wondering something else entirely.

In any case I made my points known, in my view the cert did help my application as the supers secretary phoned me to ask about the content of the course, was very pleased with what was covered, so in my view it was a help.

So you basicly weren't asked for it as a prerequisite, you just did it off your own bat?

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sparks wrote: »

Or he could be looking for the VAT number as part of a grant application for his LSP - if you had ten people doing the course, the €250 is worth the ten minutes filling in an application form. Or he could be wondering is this a franchise company or a sole trader. Or he could be wondering something else entirely.So you basicly weren't asked for it as a prerequisite, you just did it off your own bat?

Local FO explained that the super had an issue with the particular type of firearm and asked if I could prove that I was experienced enough to use it, I took it that a certifed course might help and it did. Personally I think he was jumping ahead of the legislation in that competency muct be demonstrated when applying for a restricted firearm when the legislation comes in, I was happy enough to show that I completed a course giving basic handling skills.

It worked!

Any more questions???? Sorry but have to go and get the tea for the kids.

Sikamick

Bobthesooter quote: Points taken, thanks for that, personally I just hate when there are remarks like this in a public forum, when one referes to no VAT number it is fairly clear in my mind that there is an agenda. Own personal view. I suppose in fairness he could have been interested in writing off the VAT on the course if he is himself registered for VAT, I paid €25.00 for my course so the VAT rebate would have been about €5.00, pay for the sandwiches in any case.

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Bob who did you do the course with.

Bobtheshooter quote : In any case I made my points known, in my view the cert did help my application as the supers secretary phoned me to ask about the content of the course, was very pleased with what was covered, so in my view it was a help.

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I think the courses cost me a lot more than 25 euro each, in my case there were no sandwiches also would I be correct in saying that the end user cannot claim the vat back. In our case I think it was 50 euro per person X 10 for two hours on one night, nice money if you can get it.

Re certification to get your Pistol License, as far as I know the requirement is to be a member of a Garda Authorized Club. It may help to have a course done but most people have got their FAC for their Pistols without any course done and why spend money on something that may not be recognized by the powers that be.



Sikamick

Sparks

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Local FO explained that the super had an issue with the particular type of firearm and asked if I could prove that I was experienced enough to use it, I took it that a certifed course might help and it did. Personally I think he was jumping ahead of the legislation in that competency muct be demonstrated when applying for a restricted firearm when the legislation comes in, I was happy enough to show that I completed a course giving basic handling skills.

In other words, no, you weren't asked to do a course as a mandatory prerequisite by your super as others have been, you just got a query from your FO.
Might be a whole other ballgame for dealing directly with reluctant supers, no?

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sparks wrote: »

In other words, no, you weren't asked to do a course as a mandatory prerequisite by your super as others have been, you just got a query from your FO.
Might be a whole other ballgame for dealing directly with reluctant supers, no?

Better to have done a course than not to have done one, in particular the course I did had excellent material, the instructor knew his stuff and presented it in a maner that was understood by all there, I went with no more expectation than receiveing a good grounding and understanding of basic pistol proficiency, I got exactly that a cert into the bargin that I am happy to have, regadelss of its status in the eyes of anyone else.

Sparks

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Better to have done a course than not to have done one

That's not what I asked you; and this is now the sixth time I've had to make the point that this is not about the course content, but about the certificate granted at the end of the course and how it is seen by third parties.

I know we've had at least one poster who was required by their Super to do a proficiency course - maybe they'd be so kind as to post here and lay out what exactly their Super asked for and accepted?

Sikamick

Sparks it is bad enough that you might be requested by the Super to do a proficiency course to get your license.

But when you are in a club and you are told that you have to do THIS course and are directed to a particular person/group by the people that run it, this stinks of money making.

Sikamick

EDITED : Sorry Sparks I left the word CLUB out of my original post.

Sparks

Agreed Sika, but that would be illegal. The Gardai cannot direct you to a specific commercial company for a course in that manner. They would instead recognise a certain standard and courses which qualified would then be acceptable. It's like how you have to have a medical degree to practise medicine, but that doesn't mean you have to go to a specific university or even a specific country in order to get that degree.

paddyenfield303

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

If you are interesed in a basic rifle course, these will soon be available at Hilltop Sporting Club and other clubs such as BRC, in June of 2008 12 individuals took part in a NRA Certiifed Intructors Training Course at Hilltop, all qualifed as NRA Certified Instructors (Pistol), in early November they wil participate in the Instructors Course that will qualify them to instruct in Basic Rifle.

Details can be found on www.fass.ie

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Metallic Cartridge Reloading didnt know you could do this here use do this in the uk

BOBTHESHOOTER

paddyenfield303 wrote: »

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Metallic Cartridge Reloading didnt know you could do this here use do this in the uk

I understand that FASS have up to 12 NRA Certifed instructors qualified to instruct in Metallic Cartridge Reloading.

The CJA 2006 section on reloading requires applicants who wish to apply for a certificate to reload to show comptence, what better way than to have a certified course done.

I think this is very forward thinking by the crew at FASS.

Is there anything else that you want to try and pick holes in?

Sikamick

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

I understand that FASS have up to 12 NRA Certifed instructors qualified to instruct in Metallic Cartridge Reloading.

The CJA 2006 section on reloading requires applicants who wish to apply for a certificate to reload to show comptence, what better way than to have a certified course done.

I think this is very forward thinking by the crew at FASS.

Is there anything else that you want to try and pick holes in?

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Bob I don't think the man was trying to upset you, he simply made a statement.

By the way how does one go about getting a reloading license? and are your courses recognised here in Ireland.

Would it help a person to get a reloading license if they do a reloading course with you/FASS and what does the reloading courses cost.


Sikamick

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sikamick wrote: »

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Bob I don't think the man was trying to upset you, he simply made a statement.

By the way how does one go about getting a reloading license? and are your courses recognised here in Ireland.

Would it help a person to get a reloading license if they do a reloading course with you/FASS and what does the reloading courses cost.


Sikamick

I understand that the section on reloading has not yet been commenced and as such it would not be possible to get a reloading license at this point.

I would expect that since it is a requirement to demonstrate competency in reloading as part of the application process that a recognised course would help. The decison to issue a reloading license will be that of the superintendent as layed out in the CJA 2006, reloading section.

I would like to point out that these are not my courses I was simply passing comment on what is now available from FASS. Which all started when an individual made an enquiry about a basic rifle course.

When the legislation is passed and the course is in place then you will be able to get the costings from the instructors.

Sparks

Bob, is the NRA reloading course recognised by the DoJ or by the Commissioner or by the Superintendents?

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sparks wrote: »

Bob, is the NRA reloading course recognised by the DoJ or by the Commissioner or by the Superintendents?

No:

I understand that no approach has been made to the authorities to recognise any course as it is not in their gift to do so, there would probably need to be legislation in place to allow for this type of recognition. The courses do stand on their own feet becasue they are traceable to the largest shooting organisation in the USA.

Some Superintendents like to see efforts made to achieve competency and I understand that to date they have accepted the basic course run by the NRA instructors of FASS as proof of at least participation in a course and while not part of the current legislation none the less it makes it easier for the super to determine if the individual will be a risk to pubic safety, clearly having undertaken a basic course shows at least a basic level of competency.

Sparks

Thanks for the direct answer Bob.

I understand that no approach has been made to the authorities to recognise any course as it is not in their gift to do so, there would probably need to be legislation in place to allow for this type of recognition.

No, legislation isn't needed for this. Section 3A of the CJA2006 allows the Garda Commissioner to make guidelines for the Superintendents; so one path would be for the FCP to agree on a set of courses which should be recognised as being suitable to show competency, for the Minister to accept that and have the Commissioner issue guidelines accordingly. No legislation (primary or secondary) would be needed.

prodg

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

I understand that FASS have up to 12 NRA Certifed instructors qualified to instruct in Metallic Cartridge Reloading.

The CJA 2006 section on reloading requires applicants who wish to apply for a certificate to reload to show comptence, what better way than to have a certified course done.

I think this is very forward thinking by the crew at FASS.

Is there anything else that you want to try and pick holes in?

bob the shooter. I didn't know that fas were doing firearms courses.

BOBTHESHOOTER

prodg wrote: »

bob the shooter. I didn't know that fas were doing firearms courses.

Your valuable input is very much appreciated. A man of one liners, looking forward to your next line of text!

Sparks

I think that's enough of the daft swipes prodg. The important question here isn't on the course content, or even the course instructor - it's on who recognises the bit of paper you get at the end, because if a particular course isn't recognised by the people you need to recognise it, who'd bother paying to do it?

Bananaman

I went to school for almost 14 years and nobody recognises the bit of paper I got at the end.

I have since done oodles of courses e.g. Irish Management Institute - Project Management courses.

I did not do these because anybody asked me to do so nor were they required - I did them because I wanted to know how.

I have also done oodles of shooting courses including as many of the FASS/NRA courses as I could - again not because anybody wanted me to do them nor because I would need them to do anything else - simply because I wanted to know how.

I did the the instructor courses so I can in turn teach people "who want to know how" - the bit of paper is for them.

If, in the fullness of time, the Gardai decide to require a course prior to considering a reloading application, the NRA one would be a good one - not only for the relevant content and pedigree but also because there are many qualified instructors already in country (Required by the NRA in order to teach their course).

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

I went to school for almost 14 years and nobody recognises the bit of paper I got at the end.

No-one recognises the Leaving Cert?

I have since done oodles of courses e.g. Irish Management Institute - Project Management courses.

Which are recognised nationally because the IMI is recognised by HETAC under section 24(1)(b) of the Qualifications Act.

I have also done oodles of shooting courses including as many of the FASS/NRA courses as I could - again not because anybody wanted me to do them nor because I would need them to do anything else - simply because I wanted to know how.

For the last time, the question here is not about course content. It is about who recognises the bit of paper at the end. If the Gardai don't recognise it, it's no good to someone who's having trouble getting their cert.

I did the the instructor courses so I can in turn teach people "who want to know how" - the bit of paper is for them.

Indeed, to show them that you can actually train them to a set standard. We've already had instances in this country where that very issue came to the fore, so it's not a trivial one.

If, in the fullness of time, the Gardai decide to require a course prior to considering a reloading application, the NRA one would be a good one - not only for the relevant content and pedigree but also because there are many qualified instructors already in country (Required by the NRA in order to teach their course).

Problems would arise there with the state in effect requiring people to take a course which can only be done through one commercial body (in this case, the NRA, which isn't even Irish). It would be far better to back a course which was done through FETAC or HETAC and the ISO standards - that way, anyone could run the courses (so all clubs could run courses for their members if they so wished), and people could run for-profit commercial companies to do so as well. For most shooters, that'd be a better end result.

Sparks

Heck, get it recognised through FETAC/HETAC and you could run night courses across the country, similar to this one in skerries for archery. And funding's easier to source when it's recognised as well.

Vegeta

Bananaman wrote: »

I went to school for almost 14 years and nobody recognises the bit of paper I got at the end.

I have since done oodles of courses e.g. Irish Management Institute - Project Management courses.

I did not do these because anybody asked me to do so nor were they required - I did them because I wanted to know how.

I have also done oodles of shooting courses including as many of the FASS/NRA courses as I could - again not because anybody wanted me to do them nor because I would need them to do anything else - simply because I wanted to know how.

I did the the instructor courses so I can in turn teach people "who want to know how" - the bit of paper is for them.

If, in the fullness of time, the Gardai decide to require a course prior to considering a reloading application, the NRA one would be a good one - not only for the relevant content and pedigree but also because there are many qualified instructors already in country (Required by the NRA in order to teach their course).

B'Man

B'Man fair play for putting your spare time and money into the sport. I think its great that people are going out and doing this stuff.

I know if I was a member of your club I'd be trying to get these courses accredited/recognised. That would be a big advantage to the club as you would be already up to speed rather than having to react to any curve balls sent your way. I am thinking of this from a club point of view too, not an individuals point of view.

I see what you guys are saying, it means feck all on a personal level if the courses are accredited or not. You have your license and the knowledge/skill set in your head and can pass that on. On a club level though I think it would be a great thing to have for the promotion of the club, qualified instructors of Gardai/DoJ/FCP approved courses. I don't see a downside to it or am I being naive

I don't know, it makes sense to me anyway

Sikamick

I think it was rrpc on another thread that said it starts from the ground up and not from the top down and he is right especially in this case.

Where firearms are concerned SAFETY has to be the top priority starting from the ground up, with clubs setting up and running their own safety courses, specifically because we don't have a national recognized course.

I have been speaking to some of the clubs that run their own courses free of charge for their members and all agree that we need national/standardized Irish accredited courses.

In speaking to the other clubs the feeling is if all courses were put on the table and the best parts were put together to create a syllabus which could be put before the FCP/Irish Sports Council or the powers that be for recognition and approval

This is just an idea I would appreciate opinions on this matter please.

Re the NRA USA courses, I have been looking at their web page and most of the courses that are on offer here can be done by correspondence direct to the NRA USA at very small money.

I am not knocking the bases of these courses which is safety, but as what has already been said why spend money on a course when sometime down the road you may have to do an official one.

Example: The Irish Deer Society DMQ not recognized now and the HCAP which is.


Sikamick

prodg

Sparks wrote: »

I think that's enough of the daft swipes prodg. The important question here isn't on the course content, or even the course instructor - it's on who recognises the bit of paper you get at the end, because if a particular course isn't recognised by the people you need to recognise it, who'd bother paying to do it?

oops sparks. sorry typo error:D