Now I've seen it all....

Liam Byrne

Story in the Irish Examiner today where politicians who weren't re-elected got paid an absolute fortune as a result!!!! :P

FFS!!!! If they'd been any good at their jobs they'd have been re-elected!!!!

We're all tightening our belts while the arseholes give themselves pay rises and pay themselves off even when we've decided their ****e at it!!!!

And in the meantime the shower that are still in there who wasted the boom are still in their cushy jobs with their state cars and sickening expenses!!!!

I thought things had changed in this country since Haughey & Co, but obviously not!

I'd LOVE to give myself a HUGE pay-rise, or get myself fired for being useless and still get paid......but I can't suddenly get Joe Public to pay for it.

How about a reality TV show (or even a reality CHECK) for these idiots! Get them to live on minimum wage and no unsubstantiated expense accounts for a month or two......:mad:

Victor

So workers are no longer entitled to redundancy payments?

Liam Byrne

Not ones that are equivalent to 4 times the average national wage, no.

Crash

Victor wrote: »

So workers are no longer entitled to redundancy payments?

But Victor, do we judge a politician not getting re-elected as being made redundant, or being fired for incompetency?

Meirleach

I don't know if there's any politician in Ireland I'd call a "worker".

ninty9er

I don't see any major fuss in witholding the payment until retirement. That way they'd only get one sum, whichever was the highest.

I wouldn't mind €53k over 2 years on top of my €100k Salary, mind you Enda won't complain, because he could be availing of it after the next election.

Liam Byrne

Precisely the problem ninety9er.....it doesn't matter who's in for this one; even if one or two HAD the morals and ethics to query / oppose it, they'd NEVER get it voted through.

Pay should be based on their infamous "benchmarking" and improved productivity, in which most of them would be getting a pay cut or fired.

But in all fairness "Going Forward" is spot-on; if I was fired for incompetence after a few years (and it has to be said you'd need to be REALLY ****e given the Irish trend for voting a particular way regardless of the level of incompetence shown) then there's ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I'd be getting a pension.

But because it isn't THEIR money - it's OURS, they've no problem spending it on themselves instead of on the necessary schools and health facilities and public amenities and all the other things a modern society should have....

Naw, much better to pay themselves a fortune, throw in ****loads of expenses without receipts, give them pensions even when they're dumped and add in millions in consultants' payments and spin-doctors and commissioned reports to "help" them do whatever half-assed attempt at a job that they did while they were there.

Why don't we vote in the consultants instead and do away with these idiots ?

Mal-Adjusted

the main problem with these guys, besides the uncomprehendable greed & corruption is that they put more effort into bieng SEEN to be doing something rather than actually DOING something.

Or you can be like Bertie and do 1 good thing for the country (involvment in the peace process up north) and coast on that for the rest of your career, using it to shut up anyone who brings-up the afore-mentioned greed and corruption, then scamper away once you see storm clouds on the horizon leaving the next guy holding the baby. and why not...when you look for about 100K for seminars and apearance fees.

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Why don't we vote in the consultants instead and do away with these idiots ?

Due to the system design. Even if we elected, a judge, managing partner of PWC, a barrister with a proven track record, a chief medical consultant, an environmental scientist, a linguistics and peripheral geography expert, a sport mad art dealer who reviews small villages and hotels for Michelin, a school principal, a matron, an energy analyst, transport engineer for ARUP, a farm manager and a fisherman; we'd still have the same issues because Irish people would throw them out for taxing them at 30% with a 50% marginal rate even if they provided everything we need.

Also the legislative process is too drawn out and restrictive and public consultation and Bord Pleanála are a joke costing us billions in lost efficiency.

Time Magazine

ninty9er wrote: »

I don't see any major fuss in witholding the payment until retirement. That way they'd only get one sum, whichever was the highest.

I wouldn't mind €53k over 2 years on top of my €100k Salary, mind you Enda won't complain, because he could be availing of it after the next election.

It's amazing how you managed to spin that onto FG. Really.

ninty9er

David McWilliams wrote: »

It's amazing how you managed to spin that onto FG. Really.

Not particularly. Not all of their outgoing TDs at the last election wer re-elected...so there would have been some severance payment made on that side of the house too.

Time Magazine

ninty9er wrote: »

Not particularly. Not all of their outgoing TDs at the last election wer re-elected...so there would have been some severance payment made on that side of the house too.

And so you singled out the Father of the Dáil in the post, who just just so happens he's the leader of the main opposition party.

Not an independent elected on the back of feck all. Not a young TD who's failed to make a big impression. Not a quiet Fianna Fáiler facing a backlash at the inevitable spending. Nope. The leader of the opposition.

Strange coincidence.

Liam Byrne

I was kindof with you earlier, ninty9er (even allowing for David McWilliams very valid observation) but.....

ninty9er wrote: »

Due to the system design. Even if we elected, a judge, managing partner of PWC, a barrister with a proven track record, a chief medical consultant, an environmental scientist, a linguistics and peripheral geography expert, a sport mad art dealer who reviews small villages and hotels for Michelin, a school principal, a matron, an energy analyst, transport engineer for ARUP, a farm manager and a fisherman; we'd still have the same issues because Irish people would throw them out for taxing them at 30% with a 50% marginal rate even if they provided everything we need.

How could you POSSIBLY know this ? If we haven't tried it, then we don't know. Any conjecture is impossible.

Also the legislative process is too drawn out and restrictive and public consultation and Bord Pleanála are a joke costing us billions in lost efficiency.

And this is relevant to the thread because ? Yes, Bord Pleanala might well be costing too much - mind you, there are still planning go-aheads that cost us billions in lost efficiency, transport issues and commuting times, so it's debatable which is worse.

Tribunals are also costing us too much.

e-Voting machines are also costing us too much.

And useless and incompetent politicians are costing us FAR too much; their wages, their expenses, their incompetent decisions, their spin-doctors, their makeup, their state cars, their commissioned reports to tell them what dogs in streets already know, their 200,000 office refits even after they're gone, their pensions & "firing fee", their policies and decisions re the same e-Voting.....I'm actually getting tired so I won't list anything else that they cost us.....

Even IF the points you made are true, bringing up side issues which ALSO cost us too much is completely irrelevant.

This is Ireland, after all - pretty much everything costs too much due to greed and mismanagement.

But in the case of the politicians it's different because (a) they are supposedly in charge of the economy (b) they are paid from OUR tax money at levels (both taxes and their wage levels) and (c) they are telling us there are tough times ahead.

So it's pretty obvious that they're the worst and most two-faced offenders.

Actually, having thought about it there are quite a few there that would cost us LESS by paying them to leave than it's cost us overall....I mean, if we'd paid more of them the two or three years' wages ten years ago to get rid of them maybe we wouldn't suddenly NOW need value for money - we might have actually demanded that all along and therefore actually had some cash to see us through the tougher times.....

Imagine if we'd gotten rid of RB, LL & CJH & BA before they landed us with the need for endless tribunals, or the idiots who landed us with the e-Voting machines' storage bill, or the plonker who had the cheek to sell OUR telecom eireann, including the invaluable last mile, thereby leaving us in the broadband cul-de-sac; add in all the other half-assed decisions and money-wasting that's left us paying through the nose by them privatising all the public services that were previously available ? If we'd fired FF & the PDs long before now, it would have been 53,000 each well spent, in my book!

And before ANYONE starts promoting "pay-as-you-use" as a levelling concept, bear in mind that it's not an across-the-board policy; EVERYONE'S paying taxes so that those with children get childrens allowances - even those of us who don't have any.

ninty9er

David McWilliams wrote: »

And so you singled out the Father of the Dáil in the post, who just just so happens he's the leader of the main opposition party.

Not an independent elected on the back of feck all. Not a young TD who's failed to make a big impression. Not a quiet Fianna Fáiler facing a backlash at the inevitable spending. Nope. The leader of the opposition.

Strange coincidence.

Do you recall his 2002 polling?? No coincidence here! 9% of the poll to leader of the opposition. Richard Bruton certainly won't be needing to draw on redundancy payments any time soon.

Time Magazine

And again. Good job. I picked this fight so I'll let you have the last word to avoid dragging this off-topic.

Liam Byrne

Since this is a thread that I started, can I ask that we stay on topic ? Votes from 2002 aren't exactly relevant 6 years later, and neither are OTHER things that cost too much.

Basically, how can we fix the fact that people fired by the public get a fortune despite their incompetence, and those still in get fortunes despite THEIR incompetence, while the rest of us take the hit to pay their cushy pay packets. Meanwhile, they'll not only ASK us to cut back, they'll introduce a budget that covers the essentials while ALSO covering all their wages and unsubstantiated / unreceipted expenses and consultants and god-knows-what-else!

I haven't been able to have a pay rise in 3 years, yet people who can't do their job get small fortunes plus expenses for things that they don't even pay for, or paid when they're fired ! That's sick!

Mal-Adjusted

the most simple answer (and you won't like this) is that...

They're greedy
They're corrupt
They treat the population as if we work for them, not the other way around
{most important} they're in control

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

Due to the system design. Even if we elected, a judge, managing partner of PWC, a barrister with a proven track record, a chief medical consultant, an environmental scientist, a linguistics and peripheral geography expert, a sport mad art dealer who reviews small villages and hotels for Michelin, a school principal, a matron, an energy analyst, transport engineer for ARUP, a farm manager and a fisherman; we'd still have the same issues because Irish people would throw them out for taxing them at 30% with a 50% marginal rate even if they provided everything we need.

Also the legislative process is too drawn out and restrictive and public consultation and Bord Pleanála are a joke costing us billions in lost efficiency.

Yeah the government do provide us with everything we need;
Sure haven't we a great health system, well so long as you don't go to certain hospitals and you aren't a woman in particular.
Sure we have great roads that we are paying for multiple times over so that certain companies that happened to have FF advisors at somestage will get even richer.
Sure we get to show the world how far ahead we are in temrs of technology, leaders in broadband, leaders in public body HR software systems, leaders in e-voting technology.
Jeeze the list just goes on and on.
You know it never ceses to amaze me how ffers have the gall to come out with some of the sh*** they do.

Yeah Bord Pleanála should be axed, after all it is getting in the way of the builders and developers who are what made this country great.
Strange co-incidence how you single out certain people and things.

ninty9er

Another reason they get large severance payments is due to financial commitments. If for example you are elected in 2002, and lose your seat in 2007 having taken out a €500k mortgage in the meantime; what exactly are you supposed to do. You'll find it almost impossible for an insurance company to take on the risk on an AIR policy given that you're not even guaranteed to have a job for 12 months, never mind the term of a mortgage.

Many of these so called "corrupt gombeens" as some of the more ignorant to their work would name them, have families to support and any with kids will have a serious childcare bill if their spouses work too. Some TD's childcare requirements run into Sundays, late nights, days of care at a time.

I don't take the argument that the average TD is overpaid, but I do reckon that a little fat could be cut higher up the food chain, including at levels like Secretary General at govt. departments and the like, but then again, I suppose the premium salary is compensation for the unsociable hours requirements etc.

Builders and developers can go to hell for all I care. I just don't think anyone has the right to halt the progress of massive productive infrastructure projects. It should be a matter of...pick a place for that train station and have it built within 12 months, rather than waiting 12 months for it to get through the planning process. Likewise for schools, roads and hospitals.

The general planning process will take care of the builders and developers.

Mal-Adjusted

ninty9er wrote: »

Many of these so called "corrupt gombeens" as some of the more ignorant to their work would name them

I'm going to assume that was aimed at me since i'm the only one who used the word corrupt (i think:D)
Go back over the posts & see that i never called them gombeens or unintelligent...but now that you mention it, if somebody knows that they're not gauranteed a job in 12 months time, why on earth get a 500K mortgage?

ninty9er

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

I'm going to assume that was aimed at me since i'm the only one who used the word corrupt (i think:D)
Go back over the posts & see that i never called them gombeens or unintelligent...but now that you mention it, if somebody knows that they're not gauranteed a job in 12 months time, why on earth get a 500K mortgage?

They may for example have had the mortgage before being put on a ticket. Anyhow, it wasn't aimed at you, I'm confusing this place with politics.ie, which has descended into a drivel fest recently. Though it is recovering;)

the_syco

ninty9er wrote: »

Another reason they get large severance payments is due to financial commitments. If for example you are elected in 2002, and lose your seat in 2007 having taken out a €500k mortgage in the meantime; what exactly are you supposed to do.

What everyone else does: get another job.

EamonnKeane

ninty9er wrote: »

Another reason they get large severance payments is due to financial commitments. If for example you are elected in 2002, and lose your seat in 2007 having taken out a €500k mortgage in the meantime; what exactly are you supposed to do. You'll find it almost impossible for an insurance company to take on the risk on an AIR policy given that you're not even guaranteed to have a job for 12 months, never mind the term of a mortgage.

Many of these so called "corrupt gombeens" as some of the more ignorant to their work would name them, have families to support and any with kids will have a serious childcare bill if their spouses work too. Some TD's childcare requirements run into Sundays, late nights, days of care at a time.

Nobody was ever forced to be a TD. All of them wanted to be elected; representing your people is an honour, not a career.

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

Another reason they get large severance payments is due to financial commitments. If for example you are elected in 2002, and lose your seat in 2007 having taken out a €500k mortgage in the meantime; what exactly are you supposed to do. You'll find it almost impossible for an insurance company to take on the risk on an AIR policy given that you're not even guaranteed to have a job for 12 months, never mind the term of a mortgage.

Many of these so called "corrupt gombeens" as some of the more ignorant to their work would name them, have families to support and any with kids will have a serious childcare bill if their spouses work too. Some TD's childcare requirements run into Sundays, late nights, days of care at a time.

I don't take the argument that the average TD is overpaid, but I do reckon that a little fat could be cut higher up the food chain, including at levels like Secretary General at govt. departments and the like, but then again, I suppose the premium salary is compensation for the unsociable hours requirements etc.

Builders and developers can go to hell for all I care. I just don't think anyone has the right to halt the progress of massive productive infrastructure projects. It should be a matter of...pick a place for that train station and have it built within 12 months, rather than waiting 12 months for it to get through the planning process. Likewise for schools, roads and hospitals.

The general planning process will take care of the builders and developers.

Ah bless the poor souls.
Just when I thought you couldn't get any worse you do :rolleyes:
You seem to be forgetting the expenses they do claim while they are away from their homes at the weekend, probably more than covers any childcare bills they would have. Don't the rest of us have families and kids to support ?

In the case of more than a few if they lose their seat, they may get cushy number in Seanad or else go back to their state job.
How many of them are teachers, nore than a few I would say ?
Yes some are privately employed and would have to return to work.
But a lot of those keep their enterprises running whilst they are TDs.

I notice you decide to cut the salary of the top civil servants rather than the minister, junior minister for diddly squat or the td who is chairman of committee X or Y.
Funny that ?

Have you ever thought that all but a few of the FF tds should not be ministers, juniour ministers or committee members ?
There are savings there.

Thanks to the little way that things happen to get built on land bought by the politicans' friends we would have wholesale fu**ups without some checks and balances.
Sure what am I saying, we already appear to have that :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

Another reason they get large severance payments is due to financial commitments. If for example you are elected in 2002, and lose your seat in 2007 having taken out a €500k mortgage in the meantime; what exactly are you supposed to do. You'll find it almost impossible for an insurance company to take on the risk on an AIR policy given that you're not even guaranteed to have a job for 12 months, never mind the term of a mortgage.

If you're self-employed you'll have the same problem. Your point is ?

Some TD's childcare requirements run into Sundays, late nights, days of care at a time.

Also applies to many other people who won't get €53K if they're fired, and also don't get "expenses" for merely turning up to work.

I suppose the premium salary is compensation for the unsociable hours requirements etc.

I thought the guaranteed tickets to All-Irelands and internationals would manage that, but of course I'm not greedy or lazy enough to be an FF TD, so what would I know ?

I just don't think anyone has the right to halt the progress of massive productive infrastructure projects. It should be a matter of...pick a place for that train station and have it built within 12 months, rather than waiting 12 months for it to get through the planning process. Likewise for schools, roads and hospitals.

And, of course, if planning was done properly, all of those would be in place LONG BEFORE the builders were allowed to build around them......not in Ireland, though, where thousands of houses go up before the roads and schools required to service them are even thought about.

ninty9er

jmayo wrote: »

I notice you decide to cut the salary of the top civil servants rather than the minister, junior minister for diddly squat or the td who is chairman of committee X or Y.
Funny that ?

I think you'll note, IF YOU BOTHER TO READ MY POST PROPERLY, that I said there was room to reduce the salaries of all but general TDs.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I thought the guaranteed tickets to All-Irelands and internationals would manage that, but of course I'm not greedy or lazy enough to be an FF TD, so what would I know ?

I don't know, you might be, I don't know you! You seem to have little awareness of what your local TDs do. If you bothered to find out you most likely wouldn't even want their jobs.

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

I don't know, you might be, I don't know you! You seem to have little awareness of what your local TDs do. If you bothered to find out you most likely wouldn't even want their jobs.

Considering that you admit that you don't know me, how can you possibly say that I have "little awareness" of anything ?

I'd forgive that slip, but the dismissive "If you bothered to find out...." is patronising and annoying.......

Mind you, it sounds very similar to the Government's approach to the Lisbon Treaty.

Remember that I haven't questioned whether any TDs are or aren't worth their wages; that's very debatable, but there's an argument that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, so that argument would imply that we should probably be paying more in order to get some worthwhile ones that could actually manage the country. But that's a whole other discussion.

I've only questioned whether they're worth the payoff when they're fired; the ones who aren't TDs any more and therefore aren't doing ANYTHING.

So PLEASE stop throwing in red herrings and "you know nothing" comments; they're insulting.

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Considering that you admit that you don't know me, how can you possibly say that I have "little awareness" of anything ?

I'd forgive that slip, but the dismissive "If you bothered to find out...." is patronising and annoying.......

Mind you, it sounds very similar to the Government's approach to the Lisbon Treaty.

Remember that I haven't questioned whether any TDs are or aren't worth their wages; that's very debatable, but there's an argument that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, so that argument would imply that we should probably be paying more in order to get some worthwhile ones that could actually manage the country. But that's a whole other discussion.

I've only questioned whether they're worth the payoff when they're fired; the ones who aren't TDs any more and therefore aren't doing ANYTHING.

So PLEASE stop throwing in red herrings and "you know nothing" comments; they're insulting.

I took it for one and the same argument. If someone isn't worth a redundancy payment, then you're questioning whether they were worthwhile in the first place.

Though I do reckon you have a point on the issue of the volume and ability to claim more than one severance payment. It makes a mockery of the system, but if I was entitled to claim it, I would.

Hotblack Desiato

We were always told that the high pay (now ~100k) for TDs was to compensate for the insecurity of the job.

These payments give the lie to that.

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

I took it for one and the same argument. If someone isn't worth a redundancy payment, then you're questioning whether they were worthwhile in the first place.

Not completely....there are lots of them still in jobs that aren't worthwhile, so it would be unfair to single them out. They gave it a shot and were found wanting, so they should be paid for the time they were trying (assuming, that is, that they actually tried or did something worthwhile; lots don't, but that could be said for any profession). And the idiotic Irish voters seem to vote in people regardless of their screw-ups, so the fact that they got in and did SFA is a ANOTHER side-issue. Again, please stop generalising what I'm saying.....I have a valid point that you've repeatedly tried to dilute or make seem unreasonable.

Also, Ireland's only half-decent politician - Michael McDowell (didn't always agree with the guy but at least you knew where you stood with him and what he believed in, which is probably a first for an Irish politician) was voted out last time 'round.

But the fact is that yes - we are told that the high wages cover the insecurity of the job, and then those who are fired get MORE!!!!!

It's sickening and it's a complete con. And it's almost laughable to hear them rant about what the bank chiefs did while on THEIR high salaries and bonuses, making dodgy decisions that helped screw the ordinary Joe Soap while pocketing a fortune; it's true, of course, but kettle/pot & people in glasshouses and all that DEFINITELY applies.....

You're right in saying "it's the system and if anyone was entitled to it they'd claim it" - but there's a difference between them and us. They close OUR loopholes as quickly as possible, yet who decides THEIR system and the wages levels and the dodgy perks ? These guys do it themselves!!!! So-called "independent" committees recommend stuff, but in all fairness, when has a Government-appointed committee ever stood up to or gone against what they know the Government want ???

These guys should show some leadership and ethics and save US - the taxpayer - some money for a change, instead of wasting it left, right and centre....

Apparently the approach to the latest "cuts" is to demand "value for money".....why weren't they demanding it all along ? And why can't we demand it - AS THEIR EMPLOYERS - when they waste it on themselves and their payoffs ???

No wonder people are sceptical of the political system in this country.....The Rats had it spot-on....."Banana Republic"......and there's loads of bananas for the monkeys, whether they keep their jobs or not!