Animal Cruelty and turning a blind eye

Whispered

I recently heard of someone involved in breeding fighting dogs. An aquaintance of this person told me because they do not want to do anything about it but know it's wrong. This person knew about this for ages but turned a blind eye because "he's in his 80's". Now when I mentioned it here I had someone tell me that reporting him is OTT. So in certain circumstances is it ok to turn a blind eye?

Another example, where I grew up it was normal to "get rid" of dogs if they were injured while hunting or if they weren't hunting well any more. As I child I couldn't understand it and always saw it as being very unfair, but took it as the normal thing to do. Not everyone did it, but because it was widely accepted by peoples friends, hunting buddies etc, there was no stigma attached to killing a perfectly healthy dog. People turning a blind eye to what their friends were doing allowed this to continue.

Same goes for racing dogs being dumped, fighting dogs, baiting dogs, fighting cocks, neglected pets and farm animals, the list goes on and on. People pretending not to know what their friends are up to, or feigning ignorance on how bad it actually is. How much responsibility must we, as a whole, accept for the way animals are treated here?

whitser

helena.ryan wrote: »

I recently heard of someone involved in breeding fighting dogs. An aquaintance of this person told me because they do not want to do anything about it but know it's wrong. This person knew about this for ages but turned a blind eye because "he's in his 80's". Now when I mentioned it here I had someone tell me that reporting him is OTT. So in certain circumstances is it ok to turn a blind eye

i never said reporting someone involved in dog fighting is ott. but going on hear-say with out any evidence is. for all you know this could be someone with a grudge or just a shxt stirrer. lot of jealousy in the dog breeding world and you could be getting fed a line by a jealous or begrudging person.
your not judge and jury. people should know the facts before condeming someone as being involved in something like dog fighting.
what if this all turns out to be nonsense. you just probably given an 80 yr old man the fright of his life.

Whispered

Person involved is a female friend of mine with no involvement in the dog breeding world at all. She knows this man and his family and apparently it is common knowledge in the area what they are up to.

But seriously, I'd be interested in your opinions on responsibility when it comes to knowing, for instance, your neighbour beats his dogs, or neglects his horses. Where do you think people should say enough is enough, or turn away and say "it's none of my business"

whitser

if im totally honest, where im from you dont ring the cops on people. so i'd have difficulty grassing on someone(thats just me). but if people see(with their own eyes) something thats cruel then its up to them. certainly a quite word first rather then the cops.

beth-lou

whitser wrote: »

if im totally honest, where im from you dont ring the cops on people. so i'd have difficulty grassing on someone(thats just me). but if people see(with their own eyes) something thats cruel then its up to them. certainly a quite word first rather then the cops.

Well where I'm from if you see something as inhumane and cruel as dog fighting or breeding for dog fighting, you ring the relevant officials and get it dealt with professionally. It's laughable to think that a quiet word from a concerned neighbour is going to make them stop. It may push it more underground, but it's not going to stop them.

If you have reliable information I would suggest you ring the SPCA and let them handel it.
If they are not doing anything wrong, then they have nothing to worry about and it is nothing more than a check up on the welfare of the animals.

Dog fighting is disgusting. And there is no shame in "grassing" up the scumbags who participate in it, whether that is in the fighting of the dogs or supplying and breeding dogs for it. I would be more of the opinion that turning a blind eye to it is shameful and is actually protecting and enabling such a hideous sport to continue.

Whispered

whitser wrote: »

if im totally honest, where im from you dont ring the cops on people. so i'd have difficulty grassing on someone(thats just me). but if people see(with their own eyes) something thats cruel then its up to them. certainly a quite word first rather then the cops.

Thats the same as where I grew up, although people are sort of copping on a bit now and it's unusual to hear of people being openly cruel. Most likely because people don't accept it as much as they did years ago.

So as you see it, is there no responsibility on the person who knows about the cruelty to do anything about it?

Whispered

beth-lou wrote: »

Dog fighting is disgusting. And there is no shame in "grassing" up the scumbags who participate in it, whether that is in the fighting of the dogs or supplying and breeding dogs for it. I would be more of the opinion that turning a blind eye to it is shameful and is actually protecting and enabling such a hideous sport to continue.

This is what I'm getting at, do people who turn a blind eye to cruelty have to accept a share of the responsibility of what happens to that animal, whether it's fighting or just plain neglect?

If people took more responsibility would animal welfare improve?

Is that what people fear, standing up for something and then being accused of grassing?

stevoman

helena.ryan wrote: »

Thats the same as where I grew up, although people are sort of copping on a bit now and it's unusual to hear of people being openly cruel. Most likely because people don't accept it as much as they did years ago.

So as you see it, is there no responsibility on the person who knows about the cruelty to do anything about it?

Its a very shadey area. nobody like to be a tell tale when they dont know the facts. to know the facts you have to be in the circle. to be in the circle you have to dog fight. it just goes round and round.

Also i dont think you can convicted for dog fighting unless you are literally caught in the act. the most that can be done is be summonsed for having dogs with no licenses. i think you would have to be caught in the meet itself to be prosecuted.

beth-lou

For me, the answer to your question is simple.
If the animal being treated badly then you call in the relevant authorities.
That's it, plain and simple.

I agree with Whitser that you should have reasonably reliable information, but I would not expect you to have the hard evidence. That is a job for the authorities, unless you're a bit of a Nancy Drew.

In this case, it sounds as though you are pretty sure. I'd make that call. They will never know it was you who made the call. Think about how many of those dogs are going to be savaged and for what? The sick pleasure derived from watching one poor animal tear apart the other, so that idiots can gamble on it. Make the call. Please.

Whispered

stevoman wrote: »

Its a very shadey area. nobody like to be a tell tale when they dont know the facts. to know the facts you have to be in the circle. to be in the circle you have to dog fight. it just goes round and round.

Also i dont think you can convicted for dog fighting unless you are literally caught in the act. the most that can be done is be summonsed for having dogs with no licenses. i think you would have to be caught in the meet itself to be prosecuted.

This is very true, by reporting, you are implicating yourself. For me, getting a prosecution would not be important. Getting the animals out of a fightig ring would be.

Now I'm not just talking about fighting, I'm talking about all forms of cruelty or neglect. And I'm not just talking about reporting them.
I'm also talking about taking a stand- say instance - a person I know used to buy hunting dogs, but stopped buying them from a certain breeder as this man was known to kill off not so good dogs. He has told him why he wont and does not associate with his man any more. From that (being a gun club member) a lot of the hunters in the area stopped buying from this man, and breeding from his dogs. He now no longer sells them. That, in it's own way is making a stand and making a difference.

whitser

beth-lou wrote: »

Well where I'm from if you see something as inhumane and cruel as dog fighting or breeding for dog fighting, you ring the relevant officials and get it dealt with professionally. It's laughable to think that a quiet word from a concerned neighbour is going to make them stop. It may push it more underground, but it's not going to stop them.

If you have reliable information I would suggest you ring the SPCA and let them handel it.
If they are not doing anything wrong, then they have nothing to worry about and it is nothing more than a check up on the welfare of the animals.

Dog fighting is disgusting. And there is no shame in "grassing" up the scumbags who participate in it, whether that is in the fighting of the dogs or supplying and breeding dogs for it. I would be more of the opinion that turning a blind eye to it is shameful and is actually protecting and enabling such a hideous sport to continue.

we're not just talking about dog fighting here. and i said if people have all the facts and not just hear-say then do what you feel is right. but ringing the cops on what you heard of someone is also not right.
also theres blatant animal cruelty like dog fighting and starving animals but theres grey areas too. i've heard people on here say its cruel to keepdogs in kennells,i keep mine in kennells,they're well cared for. also some would say its cruel to hunt but i hunt, am i cruel? i dont think so. people should be sure before they call the cops.
if this man or any one else is involved in blatant animal cruelty then they'll get what they deserve. but its not up to joe public to deside.

LadyTBolt

Maybe ringing the cops may be a bit extreme if you do not have all the facts for certain. You could however call your local SPCA and advise them of what you have heard and could they investigate. Who knows, they may already know about it. They will investigate and they will not release the source of the complaint. Give them a ring and see. Your local number will be on their website. Animal cruelty cannot be ignored.

beth-lou

No, it's not up to joe public to decide. But if you have information that is reliable it is not unreasonable to expect people to act upon that information and inform the relevant people so that they can establish if there is truth to it.
And I am talking in reference to the dog fighting as this was mentioned in the original post.

In relation to your neighbour treating their pet badly, well you can say something to them for sure, but it's not going to change their behaviour. If it is bad enough and you have seen it, then you should report it.

stevoman

I could never understand anyone starving a dog. If somewhon was that hell bent on killing a dog why starve it to death?

i remember as a chap my grandfather kept springers for hunting and one day came home with a young springer bitch. She was skin and bone and i literally mean that. he took her from a man that was starving her. he tried to fatten her up and bring her on but the damage was too far gone and there was no other option than to put her down. Thats going back a good 20 years or more now so it is.

sorella

With the OP all the way here. And having had to move house twice for my work, still I will always act/report.

If the man is not doing wrong, then nothing will happen to him, period. If he is, then the dogs need to be safeguarded.

They come first in this; we have been in Ireland several years and are appalled at the way many animals here in rural areas are treated.

We had rams - plural - dumped at our gate with their legs tied together; an animal refuge refused to turn out so called the Gardai on that occasion. Another time an old, old ewe the same; apparently that farmer thought she was too old to lamb.. we took her in and she had a beautiful lamb; now at a petting farm.

We have learned where to seek help; one local animal warden did nothing for weeks when we reported goats and a donkey in terrible circumstancesd; so we found a privately owned refuge then.

And we follow up also then.

Yes, for me we do have responsibility. That people turn a blind eye is sad.

The same happens often with other forms of cruelty; we then become morally accomplices.

God reward all the caring ones here.

Whispered

whitser wrote: »

we're not just talking about dog fighting here. and i said if people have all the facts and not just hear-say then do what you feel is right. but ringing the cops on what you heard of someone is also not right.
also theres blatant animal cruelty like dog fighting and starving animals but theres grey areas too. i've heard people on here say its cruel to keepdogs in kennells,i keep mine in kennells,they're well cared for. also some would say its cruel to hunt but i hunt, am i cruel? i dont think so. people should be sure before they call the cops.
if this man or any one else is involved in blatant animal cruelty then they'll get what they deserve. but its not up to joe public to deside.

You are probably not cruel, while I don't agree with sport hunting I accept it's not always the way certain animal rights groups would like you to see it. I grew up in a hunting area, and often remember having rabbit and phesant for tea. I also remember hitting a ball of the closed shed door and a phesant who was hanging on the back (dead) let a skawk because I managed to dislodge air or something. Cut the heart out of me, I had nightmares for weeks about zombie animals.

I'm not talking about wildlife, I mean pets or farm animals. You keeping your dogs in kennels might be totally different to someone else keeping their dogs in kennels. There are loads of grey areas. But what I am asking is, if you see something which is totally blatently cruel or illegal, do you feel compelled to say something, or do you think it's ok not to say anything, so you don't get involved?

If you knew your friend was involved in breeding fighting dogs would you say or do anything? If you knew your friend was killing dogs because they are not hunting well would yu say anything. Maybe not report him, but would you say it to him?

Whister, I'm not directing this at you - I know you're not involved in anything like this, it just came up twice in the past few days, so I wanted to see the general opinion on it.

beth-lou

I wouldn't be friends with someone who was involved with fighting dogs. If someone I knew was being so cruel as to starve their dog I would absolutely say it, probably fall out with them because I wouldn't be able to forget their cruelty and if they failed to rectify the situation, yes I would report them.

Clare Bear

I don't care if the man is old or terminally ill or has no one or WHATEVER! What he's doing is wrong and reporting him is not OTT.

I have reported a neighbour/relative before. And I had no problem in doing it. No one ever found out who reported him but I think they had a fair idea, me being the only Veterinary Nurse student/Vegetarian/all around animal fanatic in the area. Don't give a crap anyway. What the man in question did to his farm animals was so bad that it made RTE News when he went to court a few years ago. Plenty of people turned a blind eye to it (including the disgusting smell that travelled a good distance)...animals don't have a voice, it's up to people who actually have half a heart to speak up for them.

cowzerp

If someone is suspected of dog fighting i'd report them so fast you would not blink, these people wont have it out in the open so if you have any knowledge it should be used-if there innocent they wont get into trouble anyway, people who know about animal cruelty and dont report it are part of the problem and just as bad as the abusers.

whitser

im not saying its wrong to report cruelty. but people should be sure. there have been cases in england were lads had their houses raided and arrested because they had lurchers and terriers and someone felt that was enogh to report them for badger digging. all im saying is be sure before you condem someone. wether your gulity or not police knocking on your door isnt nice. and people talk, if word gets out that they were there because of alleged involvment in dog fighting that would be horrible thing to be associated with especially if your innocent.

lightening

Rubbish. It's hard enough to have the people who are involved in animal cruelty in to court. When they do its a silly fine.

Report them. If the are guilty something may happen, if they aren't, nothing will happen.

BlackCat2008

I'm with Helena on this and as one post says if he's done nothing wrong then he won't get in trouble if he is then you save these dogs from a horrific death after all given the court systems here he'll probably only get fine or in and out on the same swing of the door a couple of days to dry out want do him any harm.

Clare Bear

whitser wrote: »

im not saying its wrong to report cruelty. but people should be sure. there have been cases in england were lads had their houses raided and arrested because they had lurchers and terriers and someone felt that was enogh to report them for badger digging. all im saying is be sure before you condem someone. wether your gulity or not police knocking on your door isnt nice. and people talk, if word gets out that they were there because of alleged involvment in dog fighting that would be horrible thing to be associated with especially if your innocent.

I agree. I wouldn't just report someone if I just had a hunch or heard a rumour. I'd make sure it was definite before I'd do that to anyone. Mainly because I'd hate to falsely accuse someone but also because I'd look like an eejit.

whitser

lightening wrote: »

Rubbish. It's hard enough to have the people who are involved in animal cruelty in to court. When they do its a silly fine.

Report them. If the are guilty something may happen, if they aren't, nothing will happen.

what if they are innocent? they just had the cops knocking on their door and all the neighbours talking for nothing. being branded a dog fighter or badger baiter when you've done nothing of the sort. not very fair.

cowzerp

Clare Bear wrote: »

I agree. I wouldn't just report someone if I just had a hunch or heard a rumour. I'd make sure it was definite before I'd do that to anyone. Mainly because I'd hate to falsely accuse someone but also because I'd look like an eejit.

so you'd go to a dog fight before you would report someone?
otherwise how do you propose you'd have proof.

beth-lou

what if they are guilty?

By the sounds of this particular story, there is reasonable proof.

Whispered

whitser wrote: »

im not saying its wrong to report cruelty. but people should be sure. there have been cases in england were lads had their houses raided and arrested because they had lurchers and terriers and someone felt that was enogh to report them for badger digging. all im saying is be sure before you condem someone. wether your gulity or not police knocking on your door isnt nice. and people talk, if word gets out that they were there because of alleged involvment in dog fighting that would be horrible thing to be associated with especially if your innocent.

If someone knocked my door and said that they want to be sure my dog is ok, because they had a report, I'd feel upset, in fact I'd be raging, that someone could think I would abuse a dog, I would in a way be glad someone cared enough to check. If I was abusing the dog however, I'm sure it would be a different story. How can people be arrested for nothing? I thought they needed some sort of proof, or is having the dogs considered proof enough in England?

If the people were involved in what they were accused of, do you think arrest is fair?

I'm trying to figure out where the responsibility ends with regard to animal welfare. Buying horses from someone who abuses, pups from a back yard breeder etc. Using dog fighting or baiting for example: Breeders using their dogs, breeders selling their dogs to baiters/fighters. People buying from people who sell to baiters/fighters but who would never fight themselves. People who know about it but have no involvement, see what I mean, the list spirals outwards, where does the need to do something end? Buying horses from someone who abuses, pups from a back yard breeder etc.

lightening wrote: »

Report them. If the are guilty something may happen, if they aren't, nothing will happen.

Thats the sad thing, people are afraid to report suspected cruelty in case something happens unfairly, when usually it's hard enough to get a prosecution even if the person is guilty.

Clare Bear

cowzerp wrote: »

so you'd go to a dog fight before you would report someone?
otherwise how do you propose you'd have proof.

I went on to that farmer's land and took photos. Brought them to the gardai and that day he had the gardai, department of agriculture and the ISPCA out on his farm. If I hadn't gotten proof and I was wrong I'd look great wouldn't I?!! No I wouldn't go to a dog fight but I'd try somehow to get proof....I'm not saying trespass on to his land but it's what I did. Try to get proof first, if you can't and you still think there is something going on then risk it and report it. But don't go just on a rumour. Lots of people spread untrue rumours.

Whispered

beth-lou wrote: »

what if they are guilty?

By the sounds of this particular story, there is reasonable proof.

In the case that brought this subject up there is but if you just think in general circumstances, where you suspect cruelty (not necessarily fighting).

Clare Bear wrote: »

I went on to that farmer's land and took photos. Brought them to the gardai and that day he had the gardai, department of agriculture and the ISPCA out on his farm. If I hadn't gotten proof and I was wrong I'd look great wouldn't I?!! No I wouldn't go to a dog fight but I'd try somehow to get proof....I'm not saying trespass on to his land but it's what I did. Try to get proof first, if you can't and you still think there is something going on then risk it and report it. But don't go just on a rumour. Lots of people spread untrue rumours.

Wow fair play to you for getting something done. That was very brave to go onto his land.

With regadrs to dogs: The dog warden can act on reports, if you ring and say you suspect he's fighting dogs the warden will call up and just say he's doing a license check in the area. (believe it or not this happens).

It's then up to him to take it further if necessary. You do not have to involve the guards at all at this stage. The warden collects proof and get the relevant authority involved. Not as easy when dealing with farm animals though I suppose.

whitser

helena.ryan wrote: »

If someone knocked my door and said that they want to be sure my dog is ok, because they had a report, I'd feel upset, in fact I'd be raging, that someone could think I would abuse a dog, I would in a way be glad someone cared enough to check. If I was abusing the dog however, I'm sure it would be a different story. How can people be arrested for nothing? I thought they needed some sort of proof, or is having the dogs considered proof enough in England?

If the people were involved in what they were accused of, do you think arrest is fair?

I'm trying to figure out where the responsibility ends with regard to animal welfare. Buying horses from someone who abuses, pups from a back yard breeder etc. Using dog fighting or baiting for example: Breeders using their dogs, breeders selling their dogs to baiters/fighters. People buying from people who sell to baiters/fighters but who would never fight themselves. People who know about it but have no involvement, see what I mean, the list spirals outwards, where does the need to do something end? Buying horses from someone who abuses, pups from a back yard breeder etc.

Thats the sad thing, people are afraid to report suspected cruelty in case something happens unfairly, when usually it's hard enough to get a prosecution even if the person is guilty.

maybe i wasnt clear they were totally innocent any thing to do with badger digging.
i can see your point.when to report and when not too. but i think a bit more then hear-say is required.

Whispered

whitser wrote: »

i can see your point.when to report and when not too. but i think a bit more then hear-say is required.

Yes ideally hearsay is not enough to go on, but I think if people were quicker to report on suspicion, then people would be less likely to abuse. If we could sort our laws in such a way that all dogs are registered it would solve so many problems. Probably never going to happen.