How can you tell if your car is clocked?

Toots

Sorry if this has been posted before.

I bought a car back in March from a dealer (not going to name names). I heard on the radio yesterday (and confirmed on the Consumer Connect website) that the dealer I bought the car from has gotten into trouble for clocking/selling clocked cars. I had a bit of trouble with the car after I bought it, and the owner was an absolute a$$hole to deal with in regards getting it fixed, even though it was under warranty. Now I've heard that sometimes dealers can be awkward about fixing things with cars, but I'm sort of suspicious now as to why he was so reluctant to send my car in to be fixed (it had to be sent into the main dealer after his own mechanic failed to fix the problem twice).

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but when I heard this in the news alarm bells started going off with me. My car is an 04 and it had about 43/44k on it when I bought it. It's got a digital mileometer. Is there any way for me to find out if it's been clocked? The two ideas I had was to get an AA man out to give the car a check and see if he could see any signs. Second was to contact the Vehicle reg department (in Shannon?) and see can they give me the details for the previous owner so I could contact them and see do they remember the approximate mileage on the car when they sold it.

Does this sound like a good idea, or are there any checks I could do myself so I'd have some idea what to expect before calling in a mechanic or something? Also if it turns out that the car could be clocked, what do I do? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Seth Brundle

Bring it to a main dealer and get them to take a look at it. They may have the mileage stored on a server.

Keith186

Usually the NCT could confirm it but if it's never been NCT'd (<4 years old?) I don't know if they can check it.

Is that the place at the Airport? I heard they clocked former rental cars so yeah potentially could have had 20k or so more on the clock...

Run_to_da_hills

Check for dust, thumb prints, screw driver marks, screws missing, prise marks from trying to wedge open trimming around the clock face and dash. You would be surprised how clumsy these idiots can be.

Toots

I'm not going to name the garage (don't wanna get Boards into trouble ) But it's the only garage that's been in the news for clocking in the last few days. I put it through the NCT in June, as I wanted to make sure it was done before my warranty ran out. It was the first NCT so unfortunately I can't check the mileage from that

Seth Brundle

Keith186 wrote: »

Usually the NCT could confirm it but if it's never been NCT'd (<4 years old?) I don't know if they can check it.

The NCT staff may be able to detect if it has been clocked but as they won't tell you the mileage at a previous test!

eringobragh

Toots85 wrote: »

I'm not going to name the garage (don't wanna get Boards into trouble ) But it's the only garage that's been in the news for clocking in the last few days.

Please do if its been in the news then its fair game IMO. If theres an issue the modsl will remove. If you even deter one customer thats progress.

Toots

Check out ConsumerConnect and click on 'news'. If mods OK it, I'll post up the name

Seth Brundle

Are you referring to this shower?
If not then, don't post up the name unless you can prove the offence!

Kazbah

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0930/1222719690809.html

Guy:Incognito

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Check for dust, thumb prints, screw driver marks, screws missing, prise marks from trying to wedge open trimming around the clock face and dash. You would be surprised how clumsy these idiots can be.

Why would they go near the clocks themselves when they can do it through the comm port with a laptop.

In fact I doubt there is much they can do through the actual clocks .

eringobragh

Stekelly wrote: »

Why would they go near the clocks themselves when they can do it through the comm port with a laptop.

In fact I doubt there is much they can do through the actual clocks .

They have to remove the clocks to clock digital mileage after that I don't know whats involved.

bazz26

From the National Consumer Agency website at www.nca.ie:

The NCA chief also urged consumers to contact the Agency if they had suspicions that their car was clocked. "We will investigate all complaints and take action where warranted."

That is a good place to start.

Toots

kbannon wrote: »

Are you referring to this shower?
If not then, don't post up the name unless you can prove the offence!

Yup, it's that shower alright!

I've had a look around the dash to see if I can see any evidence of tampering, but nothing jumped out at me (although it must be said I'm far from an expert in these things). I heard that to change a digital clock, they just plug a laptop in somewhere to do it? Is this true?

Notorious

I could be wrong, but I don't think there has been a big enough deal made out of this. This crowd should dragged through the courts and shut down. I don't think enough has been done to spread the word so that customers don't give them business.

www.airportusedcarcentre.ie/

Kazbah

After reading the article am I the only one who thinks maybe it wasn't them. Big turnover of cars and only 4 affected so maybe they were clocked when they were traded in.

Toots

Well I have to say from one POV, I was delighted to hear about it on the news cos the owner was such a pr!ck to me (and I really can't emphasise that enough, he was one of the most unpleasant business people I've ever dealt with) when I was having problems with my car, I was glad he got in trouble. On the other hand, I'm now really worried that I've got a clocked car.

After reading the article am I the only one who thinks maybe it wasn't them. Big turnover of cars and only 4 affected so maybe they were clocked when they were traded in.

I thought that, but then the NCA said that

the mileage readings on the clocks were significantly below those recorded before the cars were sold to Airport Used Cars Centre Limited

which would suggest that it was them that altered them. (Or perhaps a mechanic operating on their behalf, and without their knowledge, but that doesn't seem too likely)

bazz26

Kazbah wrote: »

After reading the article am I the only one who thinks maybe it wasn't them. Big turnover of cars and only 4 affected so maybe they were clocked when they were traded in.

Whats the chances of the NCA doing a random spot check on a garage and finding 4 cars in stock which have had their mileage altered at the same time? If they were altered somewhere else then why did this garage take the fall for it?

I find that more than coincidence to be honest.

Kazbah

Toots85 wrote: »

which would suggest that it was them that altered them.

Doh good point.

Ok in that case, they deserve to go out of business due to bad publicity.

Toots

According to another article, this shower are selling 120 cars a week. So if there were 4 dodgy cars on the forecourt one day, who knows how many are being sold out per week? I don't know really how this whole thing would operate, but I'm assuming if a dealer is clocking cars, he's not just going to do 1 out of every 100? It's likely there'd be more, I think?

nogoodnamesleft

If the car is ex uk, See can you get the past MOT details and HPI if you have the english reg.

If irish see can you get past NCT certs.

If its a Vag group car then you dont need to take out the dash to alter the mileage it can be done using a laptop and a piece of software. Id suggest bringing it into the dealers and getting them to run their diagnostics on it as most of them can query the ECU on the car for the mileage which on most cars is independant from the odometer.

Seth Brundle

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

If irish see can you get past NCT certs.

Anyone clocking a car will presumably dispose of the NCT report. The NCT cert does not contain the mileage IIRC.

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

If its a Vag group car then you dont need to take out the dash to alter the mileage it can be done using a laptop and a piece of software. Id suggest bringing it into the dealers and getting them to run their diagnostics on it as most of them can query the ECU on the car for the mileage which on most cars is independant from the odometer.

Most modern cars have digital odometers and these are all AFAIK capable of electronic manipulation

Anan1

Toots85 wrote: »

or are there any checks I could do myself so I'd have some idea what to expect before calling in a mechanic or something? Also if it turns out that the car could be clocked, what do I do? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

If you have any service history with the car then start by calling the garages who serviced the car. If the car came without service books then i'd assume the worst, i'm afraid.

snowman707

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Check for dust, thumb prints, screw driver marks, screws missing, prise marks from trying to wedge open trimming around the clock face and dash. You would be surprised how clumsy these idiots can be.

Some years ago a neighbour bought a fiesta from a well know limerick ford main dealer
when the sun shined on the speedo he noticed a large thumb print inside the cover . anyhow he contacted the previous owner & found out that the car was clocked from 49K down to 19K

A good solicitor & a threat of legal proceedings ensured a large refund.

leon8v

Get the chassis number of the car, Ring the distributor/importer of that brand and ask to speak to someone in Customer service. Give them your chassis number and ask them was there any warranty work carried out on the car before, the mileage is recorded for any warranty work carried out on a car. This may help you. You could start the conversation by asking them is there any recalls outstanding on the car and then move into the warranty bit. If the car was imported second hand before you got it then you can move onto the UK to try find out the same. However, if you find out it was clocked, I am not sure how far you will get unless you have proof of the mileage when you bought it from them.

cashmni1

Anan1 wrote: »

If you have any service history with the car then start by calling the garages who serviced the car. If the car came without service books then i'd assume the worst, i'm afraid.

+1
Start with the service history. Everything should check out. Any difficulty gettig info from the last owner, well, thats your starting point at least. You should be able to get a good clear picture of the cars history from the service book. But, if you do not have a good service history....not good. Also check if the timing belt cover is newish.
If the car was clocked, 9 out of 10 times the dealer (who clocks cars) will change the timing belt, and belt cover in case there was any marks, or tip-ex to reveal any previous work or timing belt changes.
I know that bringing it to a main dealer may not be the answer either. I have heard of guys in the uk covering all traces of prevoius milage on the ECU. i.e. any faults recorded with milage on the ECU, were wiped out. So when a dealer looks up the history on the pc, he will suspect nothing.
With VAG cars you will have to remove the ECU and send it to Germany to see if anyone has previously tampered with it. (not worth the hassle really)
That is what I learned when I enquired about my car.
Other that that just check the usuals. Ecesssive wear and tear on geraleaver and pedals. If it was a rep car the driver side will be the only one with wear on the seat etc. Have a good look around the engine bay and look at all the screws along the underneath of the bonnet for paint missing. If there is paint missing from the screws, the bonnet was replaced/damaged. Same applies for the wing bolts.
Other than that, you should have a good idea by driving the car every day if it seems worn out or "used". If you don't suspect anything, its probally fine.

Guy:Incognito

kbannon wrote: »

Anyone clocking a car will presumably dispose of the NCT report. The NCT cert does not contain the mileage IIRC

It does as it happens. I dont know why they dont make the info readily available to the likes of Cartell etc seeing as the only way the next person can check is to have the old certs. (a quick fix for someone in government to make them provide it? maybe ninetyniner could bend an ear or two?)

If everyone made sure they kept details of service history, receipts etc (note to self or someone else, start a thread for people to compare service histories etc and see what level of SH we actually have in the country) and people buying started insisting on getting service histories and rejecting cars without them, then at least it could reduce the instances of clocking.

It also might make garages offer significantly less on trade in's for cars with no sh , giving more incentive to people to get them.

nogoodnamesleft

kbannon wrote: »

Anyone clocking a car will presumably dispose of the NCT report. The NCT cert does not contain the mileage IIRC.

Most modern cars have digital odometers and these are all AFAIK capable of electronic manipulation

NCT cert does contain the mileage of when tested. Also im sure you can apply to NCTs for a copy of an NCT.

Digital Odometers are able to be altered. However the ECU is independant of the odometer reading and computes its own total mileage record. Example of it in VAG group cars e.g. http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds/tour/EDC-15-Mileage.html

eringobragh

kbannon wrote: »

The NCT cert does not contain the mileage IIRC.

It has actualy for a while now!!

Edit: beaten to it!

Seth Brundle

I sit corrected!
Thanks

Henry Ford III

Yet another example of a buyer not doing the necessary checks BEFORE purchasing.

When will we all learn from this and similar threads?

smash

did you not get a service history with it?

Toots

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Yet another example of a buyer not doing the necessary checks BEFORE purchasing.

When will we all learn from this and similar threads?

Cheers, that's really helpful.

I did get a mechanic to look it over before buying it, and I got a check on Cartell, but maybe I should have got an AA mechanic to look at it too.

Anyhoo, I had a look at my service book this morning and saw that it had been serviced by the main dublin dealer in 2007, so I gave them a call this morning and they confirmed what the milage was when they had it in then (27k) so it looks like I'm in the clear. I'm going to leave it out to them for a good service now so I'll know it's going to be running properly. I'm so relieved!!

Thanks for all the replies guys! :)

Anan1

Toots85 wrote: »

Cheers, that's really helpful.

I did get a mechanic to look it over before buying it, and I got a check on Cartell, but maybe I should have got an AA mechanic to look at it too.

Anyhoo, I had a look at my service book this morning and saw that it had been serviced by the main dublin dealer in 2007, so I gave them a call this morning and they confirmed what the milage was when they had it in then (27k) so it looks like I'm in the clear. I'm going to leave it out to them for a good service now so I'll know it's going to be running properly. I'm so relieved!!

Thanks for all the replies guys! :)

He's right though, you should have verified the service history before buying the car. Glad to hear it all worked out for you, all's well that ends well.:)

Esel

Looking at that company's website - what kind of dealer prices all their cars ending in ,999 e.g. €29,999 etc.? That would put me off for starters!

Run_to_da_hills

snowman707 wrote: »

Some years ago a neighbour bought a fiesta from a well know limerick ford main dealer
when the sun shined on the speedo he noticed a large thumb print inside the cover . anyhow he contacted the previous owner & found out that the car was clocked from 49K down to 19K

A good solicitor & a threat of legal proceedings ensured a large refund.

Im sure if the Gardai technical squad was called to examine the thumb print they would discover it would match the prints of a heap of other clocks that were docked by the same culprits.

Stekelly wrote: »

Why would they go near the clocks themselves when they can do it through the comm port with a laptop.

In fact I doubt there is much they can do through the actual clocks .

A laptop is useless with any vehicle that is fitted with an analogue display. Ie Ford Transits.

Esel

^ The OP's is digital.

Toots

esel wrote: »

Looking at that company's website - what kind of dealer prices all their cars ending in ,999 e.g. €29,999 etc.? That would put me off for starters!

I just noticed that looking on his website now! Lol! TBH, I never even noticed that when I was looking for my car. I test drove a few, saw that one and liked it, drove it myself and then got a mechanic to give it a once over, and checked it on Cartell. I thought I'd done enough with that. Tis a learning experience I suppose, I'll know for the future to ring the garages that serviced the car before I buy it.

Carabelle

Seems I've been caught out by a shower...bought a car in the very same month the report on clocking was released! Only just realised today

Seth Brundle

thats unfortunate but please don't resurrect an old thread for it.