Old friend turns born again

CPT. SURF

So I am facing a bit of a dilemma with a friend of mine who has become a staunch born again christian, and I mean just about as staunch as they can get. He converted a year and a half ago. We have been through a lot together; beers, ladies, surf trips out of the country, and many other things.

The problem is that I am finding it really hard to just be friends with him nowadays because I know his goal is to get me to "Surrender" to the "Lord". We chat and hang out but its really not the same, I always feel his ulterior motives just beneath the surface.

There is no way I am going to give up on my friend and I have no desire to try to change anything he believes. If he wants to be a hardcore Christian, that is cool with me. I am not a Dawkins type, I just live and let live. My friendships are important to me and I would not like to lose one over this stuff.

I am just wondering if anyone has ever had, or is having, such an experience in their own life? I have noticed that his attempts to convert have been slowly becoming more assertive, and that is what I am really worried about. I know he will always be my friend because he is such a good guy, and because he believes that the "Lord" will never give up on me but I just hope that we can still hang-out like normally without religion getting into it.

Anyway, if anyone has been here I'd appreciate a bit of chat that comes from a similar experience. This is really kind of bumming me out right now.

seamus

I've never had a close friend "turn" at all, in fact all of my friends have gone exactly the opposite way.

However, from having talked to friends of friends and friends of family who've turned born again, they don't seem to be overly rabid about getting you to turn with them, however they can be pretty evangelical and talking about almost any topic will result in some sort of holy joe comment or condemnation being thrown in somewhere.

Beruthiel

If he is such a good friend, can you not just tell him that particular subject is out of bounds and he is never to speak of it when he's with you?

Dades

Never experienced it either, Capt Surf, tbh.

Similar to what Beruthiel suggests, put it to him that your beliefs are personal and his attempts to push his on you are undermining your friendship. That kinda forces him to make a choice.

As it is somewhat rare these days, can I ask if there was some catalyst for this change in his thinking? Loss of a loved one, near death wipe out (!), etc?

Tim Robbins

CPT. SURF wrote: »

So I am facing a bit of a dilemma with a friend of mine who has become a staunch born again christian, and I mean just about as staunch as they can get. He converted a year and a half ago. We have been through a lot together; beers, ladies, surf trips out of the country, and many other things.

The problem is that I am finding it really hard to just be friends with him nowadays because I know his goal is to get me to "Surrender" to the "Lord". We chat and hang out but its really not the same, I always feel his ulterior motives just beneath the surface.

There is no way I am going to give up on my friend and I have no desire to try to change anything he believes. If he wants to be a hardcore Christian, that is cool with me. I am not a Dawkins type, I just live and let live. My friendships are important to me and I would not like to lose one over this stuff.

I am just wondering if anyone has ever had, or is having, such an experience in their own life? I have noticed that his attempts to convert have been slowly becoming more assertive, and that is what I am really worried about. I know he will always be my friend because he is such a good guy, and because he believes that the "Lord" will never give up on me but I just hope that we can still hang-out like normally without religion getting into it.

Anyway, if anyone has been here I'd appreciate a bit of chat that comes from a similar experience. This is really kind of bumming me out right now.

1. If he hits you with arguments that you can't counter argue, you will feel awkard. So if he hits you with "evolution is only a theory" and you don't know the rebuttal, you'll feel awkard.

2. If he hits you with arguments and you profer the rebuttals, he'll feel awkard if he listens.

3. Unfortunately, extremists never listen. They believe in something because it feels great, not because of logic or any sort of thought process.

So you're best tactic is to point out that as far as you're concerned he is not really listening to you or considering his own position critically and objectively.
So why should you engage in discussion?

It's his decision if he wants to do this with his life and his brain, but you should point out that you don't feel comfortably ignoring obvious logical flaws in your thinking.

Dades

To be honest Tim, because this is true:

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Unfortunately, extremists never listen. They believe in something because it feels great, not because of logic or any sort of thought process.

This won't serve any function, imo.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

you should point out that you don't feel comfortably ignoring obvious logical flaws in your thinking.

Tim Robbins

Dades wrote: »

To be honest Tim, because this is true

This won't serve any function, imo.

I was in a situation where I had to deal with an extreme born again type recently. I pointed out that if they hadn't read any of Voltaire, Dawkins, Dennet, McGinn, Baginni, Russell, Sagan etc they hadn't considered their position objectively and why should I take them seriously.

I added it's fine if they wanted to insulate themselves from rational thinking but I wasn't going to do that. What they were doing to me, would be like if I tried to convert them to atheism and I had never bothered reading any of the Bible.

It's just stupid, ignorant and disrespectful.

They backed down. But I imagine they were listening more to tone rather than content. They said they would read the God Delusion.

What I was trying to say if his friend his beginning a discussion:
1. Establish what the objective of that discussion is?
2. Is that objective valid?

ottostreet

nothing you can do. ive jst come out of a relationship with a muslim girl. once she got the idea of trying to convert me from atheist to muslim, the writing was on the wall. non-stop arguments about **** that i really dont care about. her arguments were illogical "but it is written"...that damn quran really had all possible arguments covered to be honest! we didnt recover. and if your friend is extremist, its likely to ruin your friendship.

CPT. SURF

Thanks for the responses guys and girls. Some really good points. When Beruthiel said that I should tell him that the topic is off limits, I honestly laughed out loud. He does not see this a "topic", it is EVERYTHING to him now. To give you guys an example here is an exert from the e-mail he sent me last night. I think you guys will have a better idea with what I am dealing with:

"Keep going forward.. God is good man, He has good plans, you can trust Him... Man when I was talking to you, that night I felt it, sometimes I'm just given boldness and those words I spoke to you, that boldness came from the Holy SPirit.. That's how it all works.. That is the situation and God wants you bad man... I know you know the story and are along the path. It's been insane man, God is using me, 'He uses the foolish things to confound the wise'.. There is no better way to live, being used by Him to change peoples lives for an eternity.. It's pretty crazy...

Philippians1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Your friend XXXX"

Soul Winner

CPT. SURF wrote: »

Thanks for the responses guys and girls. Some really good points. When Beruthiel said that I should tell him that the topic is off limits, I honestly laughed out loud. He does not see this a "topic", it is EVERYTHING to him now. To give you guys an example here is an exert from the e-mail he sent me last night. I think you guys will have a better idea with what I am dealing with:

"Keep going forward.. God is good man, He has good plans, you can trust Him... Man when I was talking to you, that night I felt it, sometimes I'm just given boldness and those words I spoke to you, that boldness came from the Holy SPirit.. That's how it all works.. That is the situation and God wants you bad man... I know you know the story and are along the path. It's been insane man, God is using me, 'He uses the foolish things to confound the wise'.. There is no better way to live, being used by Him to change peoples lives for an eternity.. It's pretty crazy...

Philippians1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Your friend XXXX"

If I had a freind like you who would show the whole world personal contents of an email message like that then I'd hope to God that our freindship would end.

Sorry but I think that is really low of you. If a Christian came on here and did somehting like then he/she would be slated and rightly so. Good luck with your "freindship" all the same or just be a man and blank him.

CPT. SURF

Soul Winner wrote: »

If I had a freind like you who would show the whole world personal contents of an email message like that then I'd hope to God that our freindship would end.

Sorry but I think that is really low of you. If a Christian came on here and did somehting like then he/she would be slated and rightly so. Good luck with your "freindship" all the same or just be a man and blank him.

First of all, you know absolutely nothing about how strong my friendship is.

Secondly, this nonsense about posting it on the internet is balls. You are judging, that is what you are best at.

Thirdly, as regards to being a man... You give give me an address in Dublin and a time and a date and we will see who is a man. I am being dead serious.

Who is the man now?

Mena

CPT. SURF wrote: »

Thirdly, as regards to being a man... You give give me an address in Dublin and a time and a date and we will see who is a man. I am being dead serious.

Who is the man now?

That's a little extreme. Nobody pays any attention to "internet hardmen" so I suggest you cut it out.

Secondly, as for the friendship, and this is just me personally, but I'd say adios and walk away.

Tim Robbins

CPT. SURF wrote: »

Thirdly, as regards to being a man... You give give me an address in Dublin and a time and a date and we will see who is a man. I am being dead serious.

Who is the man now?

I was about to write a reply when I saw the email he sent you. But after reading the above, I don't know whose the bigger nut, you or your mate.

Fanny Cradock

CPT. SURF wrote: »

First of all, you know absolutely nothing about how strong my friendship is.

Secondly, this nonsense about posting it on the internet is balls. You are judging, that is what you are best at.

Thirdly, as regards to being a man... You give give me an address in Dublin and a time and a date and we will see who is a man. I am being dead serious.

Who is the man now?

Bizarre! Why would attempt to instigate a scrap with a stranger (at least that's what I assume you are interested in) because he called you up on something? It boggles the mind.

IMO, you overstepped the mark when you posted a personal message on a public internet forum. Sure, you could argue that no one will ever know who the author is, but given that the email was sent to YOU in friendship and sincerity, it seems entirely unnecessary to post it here.

Anyway, if how your friend chooses to express his faith is becoming this much of a problem to your friendship, then you should sit down and set some boundaries. I realise that you LOL'd when you read the same advice before, but what else can you do? It might also help to think of it from the root of his perspective: he is simply trying to share with you something that makes him happy in the hopes it will make you happy.

CPT. SURF

oh man you guys are some bunch of soft touches. as if i would really pull some **** like that. whatever anyway

Mena

CPT. SURF wrote: »

I am being dead serious.

All we have to go on is what you type.

Splendour

CPT. SURF wrote: »

oh man you guys are some bunch of soft touches. as if i would really pull some **** like that. whatever anyway

Whatever... I suggest you hang in there with your friend. I reckon someday even if you part your ways, he'll be there for you.

Galvasean

Splendour wrote: »

Whatever... I suggest you hang in there with your friend. I reckon someday even if you part your ways, he'll be there for you.

...ready to convert you. :P

Splendour

Galvasean wrote: »

...ready to convert you. :P

Hah! Not what I meant-genuinely! Though I do believe if the friend in question is a Christian he will be there for the OP no matter what happens...

I have friends who are not Christian and though I may have different conversations with them, I don't treat them differently. Apart from the fact that no Christian can ever convert a non Christian...

robindch

Splendour wrote: »

Apart from the fact that no Christian can ever convert a non Christian...

Strange -- all those missionaries must be in it for the air-miles

Dades

Well this thread took an unwelcome twist. Thanks in no small part to your kneejerk, CPT SURF. I also think Soul Winner overreacted, though. While it isn't ideal to post emails in reality there was nothing to identify the composer.

Everyone keep their knickers on basically.

Galvasean

Splendour wrote: »

Though I do believe if the friend in question is a Christian he will be there for the OP no matter what happens...

More specifically a proper Christian.

Splendour wrote: »

Apart from the fact that no Christian can ever convert a non Christian...

Basically what Robin said. Are those missionaries in Africa wasting their time?

Splendour

Galvasean wrote: »

Basically what Robin said. Are those missionaries in Africa wasting their time?

Nooo.... we are told as Christians to 'go out and tell the good news' not 'go out and convert'. We do the tellin' and God does the convertin'

robindch

Splendour wrote: »

We do the tellin' and God does the convertin'

Oh, so god turns off free-will so that people will end up believing you?

Weird.

Dades

Off-topicness. Too much of it...

Soul Winner

Dades wrote: »

I also think Soul Winner overreacted, though.

Ya think? The guy is obviously a nut case!

Zillah

This thread got way more interesting half way through. The same kind of crushing disappointment interesting that one feels when arguing with a devout follower.

Anyway, in relation to the original topic, I'd either cut off contact, de-convert him or farm him for hilarious arguments.

PDN

Can we get back to the fight again? I'll offer odds of 2/1 on Soulwinner kicking CAPT SURF's ass.

Place your bets now with Honest PDN.

Pompey Magnus

PDN wrote: »

Can we get back to the fight again? I'll offer odds of 2/1 on Soulwinner kicking CAPT SURF's ass.

Place your bets now with Honest PDN.

My money is on CAPT SURF. As SoulWinner is a good Christian I'm sure Matthew 5:39 will be a big hindrance for him ("But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well".).

Dades

PDN wrote: »

Can we get back to the fight again? I'll offer odds of 2/1 on Soulwinner kicking CAPT SURF's ass.

I would sooo love to infract a Christianity mod. :pac:

The bell is ringing for last orders here.

coillcam

Hi OP, I tried to stick in a post here yesterday but my browser crashed or something. Anyway, I would have a somewhat similar circumstance here personally. My Dad is a Jehovah's Witness along with my two younger sisters (14 + 7). I would be of no religious/spiritual affiliation/belief at present and plan to be for quite some time. My 19 yo brother would be stuck somewhere in the middle but is not part of any group. He believes in God or something as he says. My mother is out of the picture completely so I won't go into that. We were raised as Catholics.

Basically having my father as a JW is an extremely testing part of my life. There is no easy way to put. I am constantly made aware of the "truth" and its significance. I put up with it and indulge a small bit to keep him onside. Why you may ask? The answer is a little difficult in it's origin. Essentially JW's are meant to stay to themselves and their own except when necessary ie preaching/working etc. The reason for this is to remove themselves from worldly pursuits and temptations.

This means that even pursuing things to the point of severing ties with family and friends almost completely and permanently. He has told me this himself over the years on more than one occasion. Now we have a unique set of circumstances as a family, I don't need to go into detail but suffice it to say that his JW peers are comfortable with having heathen family or friends around. I don't want to lose my father or my sisters as I have very little else to be blunt. So I am prepared to have to let things be for now as much as I'd like to tell him to feck off and stick his beliefs elsewhere as I'm not interested as I love my family to much to make that sacrifice which maybe I'd feel perpetually guilty and selfish if I acted upon impulse.

I'm not sure if this relates completely to you but I though it was somewhat similar. I suppose it comes down to how much you weight the value of your friendship with the value of your own personal beliefs and which trumps the other.

I love going for a few beers with my Dad and having a laugh with him. My youngest sister, always makes things for me in school or at home, pictures or cards etc and if I've been away for a while races over and tries to crush me in a little hug around the waist and tells me how she missed me. My teenage sister I'll help out with her homework or give her some music to listen too and just some general advice on being an annoying adolescent. This is possibly the most important thing in my life at present and there is no way in hell I'm letting it go.

Either way it is tough man. I sympathize with you and hope things work out for the best.