Old friend turns born again

JimiTime

I think your friend has reached a new chapter in his life. Are you still doing the things you used to do? Obviously not the ladies etc, but the surfing etc? If so, then I think you have to weigh up if his new found attitude as to what is important in life is too much for you to bare. He wants you to be with him on this new chapter, obviously because he views you as a close friend too. However, if you think it is damaging your friendship, then just be honest with him. Either accept him for who he is, or tell him your feelings onit and how you really don't like what has happened. Unlike other posters here have suggested, I wouldn't just set up things to argue with him. I'd just be honest. If you have no interest in discussing, be honest. If you want to talk about his new found faith, be honest. If you want to try 'save' him from his new found faith, be honest. If your heart is in the right place, thats all you can do. I hope things work out for the both of you.

JimiTime

coillcam wrote: »

Hi OP, I tried to stick in a post here yesterday but my browser crashed or something. Anyway, I would have a somewhat similar circumstance here personally. My Dad is a Jehovah's Witness along with my two younger sisters (14 + 7). I would be of no religious/spiritual affiliation/belief at present and plan to be for quite some time. My 19 yo brother would be stuck somewhere in the middle but is not part of any group. He believes in God or something as he says. My mother is out of the picture completely so I won't go into that. We were raised as Catholics.

Basically having my father as a JW is an extremely testing part of my life. There is no easy way to put. I am constantly made aware of the "truth" and its significance. I put up with it and indulge a small bit to keep him onside. Why you may ask? The answer is a little difficult in it's origin. Essentially JW's are meant to stay to themselves and their own except when necessary ie preaching/working etc. The reason for this is to remove themselves from worldly pursuits and temptations.

This means that even pursuing things to the point of severing ties with family and friends almost completely and permanently. He has told me this himself over the years on more than one occasion. Now we have a unique set of circumstances as a family, I don't need to go into detail but suffice it to say that his JW peers are comfortable with having heathen family or friends around. I don't want to lose my father or my sisters as I have very little else to be blunt. So I am prepared to have to let things be for now as much as I'd like to tell him to feck off and stick his beliefs elsewhere as I'm not interested as I love my family to much to make that sacrifice which maybe I'd feel perpetually guilty and selfish if I acted upon impulse.

I'm not sure if this relates completely to you but I though it was somewhat similar. I suppose it comes down to how much you weight the value of your friendship with the value of your own personal beliefs and which trumps the other.

I love going for a few beers with my Dad and having a laugh with him. My youngest sister, always makes things for me in school or at home, pictures or cards etc and if I've been away for a while races over and tries to crush me in a little hug around the waist and tells me how she missed me. My teenage sister I'll help out with her homework or give her some music to listen too and just some general advice on being an annoying adolescent. This is possibly the most important thing in my life at present and there is no way in hell I'm letting it go.

Either way it is tough man. I sympathize with you and hope things work out for the best.

Have first hand knowledge of the JW thing. I empathise. I seriously don't think the OPs scenario is anything near what it would be if his mate turned into a JW. So OP, thats a bright side, he could have been a JW. I've seen brothers betray their brothers, husbands leave their wives, good men vilified because of their concience. A well oiled brainwashing machine! Man, JW's can bring a world of pain. Thankfully I seen it from the outside.

jim o doom

The only way I see forward is more or less what previous posters have been saying; I know you lol'd at it earlier, but if you don't talk to him about it then the only way forward is to part ways. First of all his new found religion is obviously blinding him to your discomfort in the situation. I mean I don't know about him, but me? I need things spelled out for me a lot of the time, I don't pick up on hints & a lot of people are like that. Add that to being blinded by religion & the only answer is to talk to him honestly & tell him that bring up religion constantly in conversation & attempting to convert you is becoming a major stumbling block in your previously stellar freiendship - if that doesn't faze him or at least help him to tone the religion talk down - then I predict stormy waters ahead. I mean clearly the dude wants whats best for you (in his eyes religion = saving his soul & he wants to save yours- even if it's wrecking your head). I feel he might stop if you let him know that in no uncertain terms that it is unacceptable for him to continue on in this fashion.

aidan24326

CPT. SURF wrote: »

Thanks for the responses guys and girls. Some really good points. When Beruthiel said that I should tell him that the topic is off limits, I honestly laughed out loud. He does not see this a "topic", it is EVERYTHING to him now. To give you guys an example here is an exert from the e-mail he sent me last night. I think you guys will have a better idea with what I am dealing with:

"Keep going forward.. God is good man, He has good plans, you can trust Him... Man when I was talking to you, that night I felt it, sometimes I'm just given boldness and those words I spoke to you, that boldness came from the Holy SPirit.. That's how it all works.. That is the situation and God wants you bad man... I know you know the story and are along the path. It's been insane man, God is using me, 'He uses the foolish things to confound the wise'.. There is no better way to live, being used by Him to change peoples lives for an eternity.. It's pretty crazy...

Philippians1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Your friend XXXX"

Oh dear. It sounds like he has gone all the way to the madhouse on this. You will have to be honest and tell him that there is no way he is going to convert you, that it's not an option period, that you feel he is disrespecting your own views/beliefs. That it is going to damage your friendship if he keeps this up.

If he continues to try and convert you I'd be questioning at that stage whether he was someone I wanted to be friends with anymore. Genuine friendship is about compromise and respecting each other's point of view, isn't it? If you are prepared to accept him in his newfound faith, then surely he can accept you in your differing views? If not then you'll have no choice but to cool off on your friendship as he will just end up p1ssing you off anyway.

I mean I'd be half worried about someone if they sent me an email like that, he sounds pretty far gone with all of this. Do you know how all of this came about or what got him into it?

Soul Winner

I'm sorry guys I just have to interject again. What is SO BLOODY WRONG with what that guy says in His email???? It might come across as weird to someone who knew the person previously when they didn't talk like this, but to me it just sound like someone who has had a genuine change take place in their life and they are just overawed by it and possibly a little naïve as to how it relates to others but I don’t see any malice or even conceit in his words.

Let's analyze what he says bit by bit and see what evil lurks shall we?

New Babe in Christ wrote:

"Keep going forward.. God is good man"

What's wrong with that?

New Babe in Christ wrote:

He has good plans, you can trust Him...

He obviously believes this so why not tell people? Do you light a candle only to put it under a bed? Just because you can’t accept it that should not be a reason to think he is delusional. It’s real to him at least.

New Babe in Christ wrote:

Man when I was talking to you, that night I felt it, sometimes I'm just given boldness and those words I spoke to you, that boldness came from the Holy SPirit..

Again I fail to see what is wrong with this? Is this man's experience with what he believes is the Holy Spirit invalid just because the listener does not accept it? I fail to see how one can deduce delusion on the man’s part based on that.

New Babe in Christ wrote:

That's how it all works..

He's right, that is how it all works. If it’s not then Christianity is really a load of BS. We are told that it is God's spirit in us that changes us, it is not a change made by the person by and of themselves, if Christianity is true then it IS a work of the Holy Spirit.

New Babe in Christ wrote:

That is the situation and God wants you bad man...

I disagree with him on this point. It is pretty obvious that God doesn't want his friend (well yet anyway), if God wanted him he would know about it believe me. No man comes to the Father save the spirit draw him. I don’t believe the spirit is doing this so he’s wrong there but still and all it’s not like he’s saying anything bad is it? He’s just mistaken and needs to be corrected on it.

New Babe in Christ wrote:

I know you know the story and are along the path.

This to me is probably what he is actually most delusional about. The person he is talking to is obviously not on the same path as him, but it is not being communicated to him adequately that he has no desire to be on that path. This is due to lack of strong communication on the part of the friend. You need to break eggs if you want to make an omelet so I suggest offering the guy an ultimatum in stern and clear terms that if he continues his wooing then the friendship must come to an end. I will side with anyone on this one even though I might share the other guy’s beliefs. When some tells you they don't want to know then stop talking about it to them. Just answer as best you can whatever questions they might have concerning your faith with honesty and clarity and live your own convictions. Stop trying to drag people whose time has not arrived yet into the Kingdom because God has called you in your time. Just grow and flower and be ready to give a defense of your faith but for God’s sake stop whipping people with it.

New Babe in Christ wrote:

It's been insane man, God is using me, 'He uses the foolish things to confound the wise'

He's right about that too. “The preaching of the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing (perishing in a spiritual sense) but to the ones being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18

New Babe in Christ wrote:

There is no better way to live, being used by Him to change peoples lives for an eternity.. It's pretty crazy...

I agree but he must see that not everyone wants to be changed and he should filter his words and use a bit of wisdom and discernment when preaching. He should also remember that the spirit is subject to the prophet and not to allow the spirit to let fly with emotion too much when trying to make clear his new found faith. As Paul said to the Corinthians, I rather speak one word understood than a thousand in an unknown tongue. He was talking to people who constantly showed off the gifts of the spirit in them by talking in tongues and so forth, but who forgot that these gifts are for the edification and building up of the body of believers not for spiritual one-up-man-ship of for showing off. I’m not suggesting that this guy is doing this but it’s a point worth making anyway.

New Babe in Christ wrote:

Philippians1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Well like I said if there is no God then Christianity is all bunkum anyway so the best advice I can give is stay friends with this guy and give things a while to settle. Listen to what he is actually saying and ask the probing questions that need to be asked instead of clenching up like a clam. Give him food for thought on how he might be mistaken and he will pursue it further I’m sure and leave you alone until he settles it and you never know he might end up coming back teaching you a thing or two about your own unwavering faith in yourself.

Tim Robbins

Soul Winner wrote: »

I'm sorry guys I just have to interject again. What is SO BLOODY WRONG with what that guy says in His email????

This is actually a very very very good question. Why does this sort of stuff freak non - believers out?

I think the answers lies in the human condition. All of us are insecure and troubled by the fact that we cannot know everything, we will die, we will loose loved ones, we make decisions with uncertainty, we can never be sure of anything, there is no ultimate meaning to our lives, we will be hurt by the sad realities of life.

The Christian thinks they have solved these problems and when they project their dogma to the atheist, they only remind the atheist of these problems because their answers are so obviously flawed.

To the atheist, they haven't solved these problems, they only escaped from them by accepting a delusion and fantasy, which in terms of objective evidence is absolutly baseless.

So, if you excuse the analogy, this is what it is like.
Suppose you have a real problem, you have lost your job or your girlfriend has gone off with your mate. Your other wacko friend tries to convince you and console you by subverting reality - he says these things didn't actually happen and it was only a dream. But you know they did happen. You show your friend your P45 and photos you have from your girlfriend having an affair.

He then tries to tell you the P45 is a fake as is the photo "is only a theory" and that you need more faith. He smiles and tries to act all happy, trying to make you feel the same way by subverting reality. But this only makes your unhappiness worse. Because it's even more obvious that you have no solution to your problems accept to engage in fantasy.

aidan24326

Soul Winner wrote: »

I'm sorry guys I just have to interject again. What is SO BLOODY WRONG with what that guy says in His email???? It might come across as weird to someone who knew the person previously when they didn't talk like this, but to me it just sound like someone who has had a genuine change take place in their life and they are just overawed by it and possibly a little naïve as to how it relates to others but I don’t see any malice or even conceit in his words.

It's not so much what he says more the tone of it (partly the content too tbh). Would you not agree that it could be perceived as a bit over the top by someone who isn't a believer? - as the op apparently isn't.

I mean stuff like 'god needs you bad man' sounds a bit heavy. I'd agree that he's just being a bit naieve rather than showing any malice or negative intent. But he's unlikely to win any converts with that sort of approach, and even though he may mean well it is unfair to try and push this on his friend in such an in-your-face kind of way.

aidan24326

Tim Robbins wrote: »

To the atheist, they haven't solved these problems, they only escaped from them by not accepting a delusion and fantasy, which in terms of objective evidence is absolutly baseless.

Fixed.

Tim Robbins

aidan24326 wrote: »

Fixed.

No fixing necessary. To the atheist, Christianity is nothing more than a fantasty.

aidan24326

Tim Robbins wrote: »

No fixing necessary. To the atheist, Christianity is nothing more than a fantasty.

Oh yeah sorry my mistake, I misinterpreted. Thought you meant atheists had accepted a delusion and fantasy, but I can see that I read it wrong.

JimiTime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The Christian thinks they have solved these problems and when they project their dogma to the atheist, they only remind the atheist of these problems because their answers are so obviously flawed.

Except that some atheists don't see these 'obvious flaws' and in turn the message gets through and they become Christian. Just ask PDN.

To the atheist, they haven't solved these problems, they only escaped from them by accepting a delusion and fantasy, which in terms of objective evidence is absolutly baseless.

And as a Christian, I would understand that this kind of thing is often spouted. So there is nothing wrong with trying to show a person thats not the case. There is so much cr@p out there about all kinds of things, I'd like to make sure their atheism is not based on ignorance and mis-information.

So, if you excuse the analogy, this is what it is like.
Suppose you have a real problem, you have lost your job or your girlfriend has gone off with your mate. Your other wacko friend tries to convince you and console you by subverting reality - he says these things didn't actually happen and it was only a dream. But you know they did happen. You show your friend your P45 and photos you have from your girlfriend having an affair.

He then tries to tell you the P45 is a fake as is the photo and that you need more faith. He smiles and tries to act all happy, trying to make you feel the same way by subverting reality. But this only makes your unhappiness worse. Because it's even more obvious that you have no solution to your problems accept to engage in fantasy.

Get it?

Again, this works on the assumption that the atheist is right. I wouldn't like someone to not share info with me because he thought I'm just too stuck in my ways. Let me hear it, and I'll decide. Same goes for the Christian and the atheist. Give him the message, and see how it goes.

Admittedly, some of the delivery of that letter seemed a bit OTT, but its all about motivation. I'm always skeptical when people say the holy spirit is telling me to do this or that, but thats my personal opinion.

karen3212

Personally, the issue for me with people who are trying to convert me to their religion is: the lack of respect for me as a human being, not their issues with my beliefs.

Sorry, don't think I could be good friends with someone who feels it is their mission to convert me.

Soul Winner

Tim Robbins wrote: »

This is actually a very very very good question. Why does this sort of stuff freak non - believers out?

If I was a non believer then stuff like this would be nonsense to me and therefore it would not be taken seriously enough to warrant being freaked out about it. It always amuses me the lengths some atheists will go in order to convince someone they perceive to be delusional that they are delusional. If they are truly delusional then they need to avoided.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think the answers lies in the human condition. All of us are insecure and troubled by the fact that we cannot know everything,

Does this included not knowing what lies outside nature?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The Christian thinks they have solved these problems and when they project their dogma to the atheist, they only remind the atheist of these problems because their answers are so obviously flawed.

No, the Christian does not think that THEY have solved these problems. They believe that God has.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

To the atheist, they haven't solved these problems, they only escaped from them by accepting a delusion and fantasy, which in terms of objective evidence is absolutly baseless.

The conclusion that this is a delusion and a fantasy are predicated on the presupposition that nothing outside of nature exists. Do you know of any naturalists that will tell you that nature is all that there is? How do they know? If our sensory apparatus only extends to the confines of nature then how can we ever know that there is nothing beyond it? One of the most basic claims of Christianity is that God intruded into nature and struck a tent in human flesh called Jesus.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

So, if you excuse the analogy, this is what it is like.
Suppose you have a real problem, you have lost your job or your girlfriend has gone off with your mate. Your other wacko friend tries to convince you and console you by subverting reality - he says these things didn't actually happen and it was only a dream. But you know they did happen. You show your friend your P45 and photos you have from your girlfriend having an affair.

He then tries to tell you the P45 is a fake as is the photo "is only a theory" and that you need more faith. He smiles and tries to act all happy, trying to make you feel the same way by subverting reality. But this only makes your unhappiness worse. Because it's even more obvious that you have no solution to your problems accept to engage in fantasy.

Analogy excused but not accepted as adequate IMO. Nothing has happened to the friend. The friend is only hearing what happened to the new convert. The new convert has something now that both of them previously did not have. What they both had got in common prior to the new convert’s conversion was that they both had unanswered questions. The new convert believes that some of his questions at least have been answered to a degree that warrants exultation.

I could use your analogy from the converts side of things as well.

Suppose you have a real problem, you don’t believe Christ rose from the dead. But you study the issue intensely and come away convinced that it is true . Your other wacko friend tries to convince you and console you by appealing to nature - he says these things didn't actually happen and it was only a dream. But you know they did happen. You show your friend the evidence that has convinced you but he won’t accept it based on the presupposition that these things can’t happen and therefore didn’t happened and as such they are not even worth the time it would take to study.

He then tries to tell you that the evidence is fake "is only a fable" and that you need more evidence. He smiles and tries to act all happy, trying to make you feel the same way by using a poor academic approach to the issue. But this only makes your unhappiness worse. Because it's obvious to you that you have the solution to your problems without needing to engage in fantasy.


What might be a P45 to one person is the opportunity to start a new job to another

JaneyP

Every one is entitled to their own beliefs. As long as they keep it just that. THEIR OWN. Nothing infuriates me more than people trying to force their beliefs/faiths/customs on you. Everybody's different

JimiTime

karen3212 wrote: »

Personally, the issue for me with people who are trying to convert me to their religion is: the lack of respect for me as a human being, not their issues with my beliefs.

Sorry, don't think I could be good friends with someone who feels it is their mission to convert me.

I think you need to be a bit more empathetic. In fact I think all the 'Keep it to yourself' type posters need to be. As a christian in would be wholly 'irresponsible' to keep it to onesself. I don't think many would mind if their friend came into a fortune and decided to share it with them. Thats what a good christian does. They share their fortune with you. Now where I'd readily concur with you, is when it becomes harassing. If you make it clear that you don't want to know, then if the person in question wont stop, move on. Though in saying this, I'd hope that people would respect their friends enough to hear them out first. If you reason it out and you are still not convinced, then put a stop to it. Again, its all about the motivation.

ironingbored

CPT. SURF wrote: »

"Keep going forward.. God is good man, He has good plans, you can trust Him... Man when I was talking to you, that night I felt it, sometimes I'm just given boldness and those words I spoke to you, that boldness came from the Holy SPirit.. That's how it all works.. That is the situation and God wants you bad man... I know you know the story and are along the path. It's been insane man, God is using me, 'He uses the foolish things to confound the wise'.. There is no better way to live, being used by Him to change peoples lives for an eternity.. It's pretty crazy...

Philippians1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Did the Bill and Ted-esque surver lingo come with the born-again experience or was that extra?

PDN

JaneyP wrote: »

Every one is entitled to their own beliefs. As long as they keep it just that. THEIR OWN. Nothing infuriates me more than people trying to force their beliefs/faiths/customs on you. Everybody's different

I don't think he's tying CAPT SURF up and forcing him to watch the God Channel or anything like that, is he?

Tim Robbins

Soul Winner wrote: »

Does this included not knowing what lies outside nature?

Outside space time - yes.

No, the Christian does not think that THEY have solved these problems. They believe that God has.

You misunderstand what the problem is. The atheist has a problem by getting a pain in their head wondering about things, they are stuck with the burden uncertainty. The Christian doesn't have this problem because they invoke "I don't know, but God does". So they shift the problem away from their head onto God. To the atheist, God doesn't solve anything but is a representation and reminder of the problem.

The conclusion that this is a delusion and a fantasy are predicated on the presupposition that nothing outside of nature exists. Do you know of any naturalists that will tell you that nature is all that there is? How do they know? If our sensory apparatus only extends to the confines of nature then how can we ever know that there is nothing beyond it? One of the most basic claims of Christianity is that God intruded into nature and struck a tent in human flesh called Jesus.

I am not arguing whose right w.r.t. atheist V christianity, I am trying to describe how the atheist feels. What you are doing is an annoying characteristic of most Christian, you are ignoring how the atheist feels. You wonder why the atheist feels such and such and I am trying to tell you why, but instead of trying to understand that you are reverting to trying to question the validity of the position.

Suppose you have a real problem, you don’t believe Christ rose from the dead. But you study the issue intensely and come away convinced that it is true .

That is only possible if you use a non - rational approach to establish truth. In fact, it's an act of sophistry and rhetoric in Christianity to claim "the truth" because there is no differentiation between belief and knowledge.

I don't believe in God, but I accept my knowledge is limited to what I can experience by conciousness and hence I may be simply wrong. The certitude of the extreme Christian, transcends all this and they simply ignore very simple facts which point to the limits of knowledge for any human being.

Your other wacko friend tries to convince you and console you by appealing to nature - he says these things didn't actually happen and it was only a dream. But you know they did happen. You show your friend the evidence that has convinced you but he won’t accept it based on the presupposition that these things can’t happen and therefore didn’t happened and as such they are not even worth the time it would take to study.

He then tries to tell you that the evidence is fake "is only a fable" and that you need more evidence. He smiles and tries to act all happy, trying to make you feel the same way by using a poor academic approach to the issue. But this only makes your unhappiness worse. Because it's obvious to you that you have the solution to your problems without needing to engage in fantasy.[/I]


What might be a P45 to one person is the opportunity to start a new job to another

I apologise for the analogy.
Ok, the problem is Christians use a non - rational approach to establish truth. I agree it may help some people. But so does Angel card reading and Tarot Cards.

So you:
1. Either accept it's non - rational.
2. Or you think it's rational.

If you are number 2, you have no right to irritate a non believer as you just haven't considered your own position critically and objectively.

I think this is the problem with the Bible Bashers. They ignore the counter arguments to their own position while they spout off their views. It's irritating listening to someone who tries to force you to have a certain opinion when they refuse to consider that opinion objectively, critically.

Tim Robbins

JimiTime wrote: »

I think you need to be a bit more empathetic. In fact I think all the 'Keep it to yourself' type posters need to be. As a christian in would be wholly 'irresponsible' to keep it to onesself. I don't think many would mind if their friend came into a fortune and decided to share it with them. Thats what a good christian does. They share their fortune with you. Now where I'd readily concur with you, is when it becomes harassing. If you make it clear that you don't want to know, then if the person in question wont stop, move on. Though in saying this, I'd hope that people would respect their friends enough to hear them out first. If you reason it out and you are still not convinced, then put a stop to it. Again, its all about the motivation.

The christian has no right to spout off opinions and beliefs without considering their own opinions critically. What makes you think they have?

JimiTime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The christian has no right to spout off opinions and beliefs without considering their own opinions critically. What makes you think they have?

To me its not about 'Rights', or 'The Christian'. Its about a friend talking to a friend. Even if it was a stranger I wouldn't see it in such terms. I remember in my years living in London, being approached by Muslims all the time on Kilburn high road. Never had an issue with it. Personally I think you're just being dramatic, but each to their own I suppose.

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think this is the problem with the Bible Bashers. They ignore the counter arguments to their own position while they spout off their views. It's irritating listening to someone who tries to force you to have a certain opinion when they refuse to consider that opinion objectively, critically.

I'd agree with this.

JimiTime wrote: »

I remember in my years living in London, being approached by Muslims all the time on Kilburn high road. Never had an issue with it. Personally I think you're just being dramatic, but each to their own I suppose.

I would say the OP's friend has gone beyond the "approach" stage, and has veered closer to the "harass" stage you mentioned earlier.

At which point, I think we're agreed, he needs to 'give it a rest'.

JimiTime

Dades wrote: »

I would say the OP's friend has gone beyond the "approach" stage, and has veered closer to the "harass" stage you mentioned earlier.

At which point, I think we're agreed, he needs to 'give it a rest'.

I'd only say its time to give it a rest when the guy on the recieving end openly tells him to stop. That doesn't seem to have happened, so I don't think its reached that stage yet IMO. The guy is obviously irritated, but until he says it, he shouldn't really be expecting a stop to it.

seamus

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd only say its time to give it a rest when the guy on the recieving end openly tells him to stop.

Hardly. If I was to stand at the end of someone's garden every morning and watch them leave for work, am I OK to continue doing that until I'm asked to stop? Or should I have the common sense to act in a socially acceptable way and ask for someone's permission before I act in this way?

Exactly the same with talking directly to someone in regards to religion. You should wait for them to give the green light and then proceed, and not just proceed and keep going until asked to stop. Civility and social norms dictate that nobody else is interested in your views on religion, therefore keep them to yourself until you're asked about them.

Anyone who does otherwise is showing a complete lack of respect for other people and social boundaries.

jim o doom

+1 on the previous post. Christians may regard it as necessary to try and "save" the souls of non-christians, but that doesn't mean it's right or not rude.
Also a previous poster stated that it was his responsiblity to try and help/save/talk to his friend as a christian about religion, would you still feel that way if your actions caused your friend to no longer want to be friends with you?
And what is so wrong with the letter? As some Christians have stated here, even to them its a bit "over the top" - and to a person who not only has no interest in religion, but is clearly against it - this sort of thing seems like mindless drivel - the email also serves to clearly illustrate (as was the OP's point in showing us the email) - that all of his conversations & emails with his friend more or less take place in this fashion. Whats wrong with one email like that? not much, but if it's every email & every conversation, then staying in contact with that person becomes difficult or impossible, his old friends mannerisms, ways & dealings have all now boiled down to religion which he appears to be determined to shove down the ops throat. THAT'S what is wrong with it.

Tim Robbins

JimiTime wrote: »

To me its not about 'Rights', or 'The Christian'. Its about a friend talking to a friend. Even if it was a stranger I wouldn't see it in such terms. I remember in my years living in London, being approached by Muslims all the time on Kilburn high road. Never had an issue with it. Personally I think you're just being dramatic, but each to their own I suppose.

If I had a friend who kept spouting off opinions about anything without examining counter arguments - it would annoy the crap out of me.

Did you engage and have debates about the Koran with the Muslims?

If not why not?

Tim Robbins

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd only say its time to give it a rest when the guy on the recieving end openly tells him to stop. That doesn't seem to have happened, so I don't think its reached that stage yet IMO. The guy is obviously irritated, but until he says it, he shouldn't really be expecting a stop to it.

Here's a cringy analogy.
Three smokers enter a guests house.
Smoker 1 lights up because he thinks its ok to light up unless explictly told not do.
Smoker 2 while inside says: "do you mind if I smoke?". He puts the owner of house in a slightly awkard position, because he may have to say "Yes I do mind, could you go outside" and then the owner come across as a party pooper or a kill joy.
Smoker 3 says: "Would you mind if I went outside to have a smoke". The chances are the owner won't mind and if he really doesn't mind smoking indoors he can say:
"No not at all, infact you can smoke inside".

Now it's clear smoker 3 gives the owner the best range of options and has put a bit of thought into his communication, more specifically into the owner's feelings.

It's an analogy but it's similar with the Christians. Different forms of communication present their friend with different options. By being a bit considerate, they can achieve objectives but in a considerate respectful way.

Unfortunately the heavy christians don't get this, because ironically they don't think about other people's perspectives that much.

Get it?

JimiTime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If I had a friend who kept spouting off opinions about anything without examining counter arguments - it would annoy the crap out of me.

This is the bit you are missing. If you tell the friend to stop and explain why etc, and he doesn't. Then fair enough. If you don't say anything, but just whinge about it to others, I think thats a poor decision on your part. He is alledgedly a friend afterall. Can't you just speak openly? Can't you have empathy to what this friend is doing? Can't you understand that this friend feels like he has something to give you? If you don't tell him you don't want it, why complain about the friend who thinks he's giving you a gift?

Did you engage and have debates about the Koran with the Muslims?

Yes, regularly. When I was in a hurry, I'd say 'Sorry, I'm in a rush'. I wouldn't go home a tell my wife I've been harassed though. Or whine about Muslims harassing me. Whatever the group, I'd often engage with them. It takes courage to approach people in the streets. If I can, I'll stop and chat. Be them atheists, Muslims or whatever. As I said, I think you are just a little dramatic.

5uspect

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Get it?

So you're saying we should have a ban on discussing religion similar to a smoking ban? :pac:

JimiTime

seamus wrote: »

Hardly. If I was to stand at the end of someone's garden every morning and watch them leave for work, am I OK to continue doing that until I'm asked to stop? Or should I have the common sense to act in a socially acceptable way and ask for someone's permission before I act in this way?

You are comparing this to a 'friend' who feels like he'd like to share a gift with you? As I said earlier, you need to understand the friend a bit more. Would you have an issue with a friend who won the lotto and wanted to share his winnings? Or would you see him as a good friend. Even if you did not accept the share, would you not still see the motivation behind the offer?

Exactly the same with talking directly to someone in regards to religion. You should wait for them to give the green light and then proceed, and not just proceed and keep going until asked to stop. Civility and social norms dictate that nobody else is interested in your views on religion, therefore keep them to yourself until you're asked about them.

Just dramatic IMO. Its certainly is not a 'social norm' to not talk about things. You are saying spiritual things are taboo are they? To speak about things like this is against 'civility' is it?

Anyone who does otherwise is showing a complete lack of respect for other people and social boundaries.

LOL. Such drama. 'Social boundaries'.ROFL.

As for the complete lack of respect. I go back to your lack of understanding. If it was a pot of gold he had to share with you, would you be so maligned? Well thats what a good christian has. Also, why can't a friend feel he can talk to you about things that are important to him?

seamus

JimiTime wrote: »

You are comparing this to a 'friend' who feels like he'd like to share a gift with you? As I said earlier, you need to understand the friend a bit more. Would you have an issue with a friend who won the lotto and wanted to share his winnings? Or would you see him as a good friend. Even if you did not accept the share, would you not still see the motivation behind the offer?

If he deposited the cash in my account without even asking me, I would have a problem with that.

Just dramatic IMO. Its certainly is not a 'social norm' to not talk about things. You are saying spiritual things are taboo are they? To speak about things like this is against 'civility' is it?

To attempt to convince someone that your religion is the right one, when they haven't even broached the topic, is rude at least. I would consider it the domain of scumbags - preachers and the like. But that's just me. Asking someone about their religion, yes it is against social norms. Do you routinely query everyone on their religious beliefs? Do you routinely try to convince them that your way is the right way?

As for the complete lack of respect. I go back to your lack of understanding. If it was a pot of gold he had to share with you, would you be so maligned? Well thats what a good christian has. Also, why can't a friend feel he can talk to you about things that are important to him?

What a good christian fails to realise that unless you ask the question, "Would you like me to share this pot of gold with you?", then he can expect people to become offended when he starts jabbing gold coins into the unlucky recipient's eye.

What you fail to understand is that you don't have any pot of gold. You have a rainbow which promises a large leprechaun and a pot of gold at the end, but you have no means of verifying that the gold, or the leprechaun or the end of the rainbow actually exist.