Biden-Palin Debate

Kama

Are you Hockey Mom or Joe Sixpack?

I DON'T KNOW ANYMORE!!??!! :eek:

Hockey-Joe Mom-pack, maybe?
As such, I'm the Palin-Perfect democratic actor... :rolleyes:

Talking about Palin being a dumb hockey mom, and her voters being idiots plays right into the strat they are moving forward with is basically my point.

Hobbes

Inquitus wrote: »

Are you Hockey Mom or Joe Sixpack?

Joe sixpack comments reminded me of Mr Burns run for the governer.

Inquitus

Kama wrote: »

I DON'T KNOW ANYMORE!!??!! :eek:

Hockey-Joe Mom-pack, maybe?
As such, I'm the Palin-Perfect democratic actor... :rolleyes:

Talking about Palin being a dumb hockey mom, and her voters being idiots plays right into the strat they are moving forward with is basically my point.

Well Modern Democracy relies on people making an informed decision, if people are unwilling / unable to get informed then what can you do?

Drift

Dave! wrote: »

BTW, Palin's voice reminds me of the film Fargo. Is [wherever that is set] near Alaska? I presume so, because there is snow in both.

HAHA, not really. It's about 2300 miles. Roughly the same distance as there is between Ireland the the Pyramids in Giza!!

Her accent does sound similar though, I'll grant you that.

Kama

Well Modern Democracy relies on people making an informed decision

Meh I think that's classical democracy. Modern democracy relies on polling, swing votes, and push-button issues. Also snap judgements on peoples faces. With a little framing thrown in, et voila!

Academic notions are all very well, but I'm a bit dubious that's how elections are fought.

Manic Moran

leninbenjamin wrote: »

sidenote: anyone know what the American General in Afghanistan (can't remember his name) actually said about using the 'surge' there?

McKiernan. It's a sort of 'none-of-the-above.' The line Biden relies on is "The word I don't use for Afghanistan is 'surge.'"
I'm having some difficulty tracking down a full transcript, as it appears to have been a comment taken from an interview with the Washington Post. He did do a full press conference the same day which may give context to his thinking, but the quoted line does not appear in the transcript.

This is the Biden quote from the debate.

The fact is that our commanding general in Afghanistan said today that a surge -- the surge principles used in Iraq will not -- well, let me say this again now -- our commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan, not Joe Biden, our commanding general in Afghanistan.

He said we need more troops. We need government-building. We need to spend more money on the infrastructure in Afghanistan.

This is Palin's response.

Well, first, McClellan did not say definitively the surge principles would not work in Afghanistan. Certainly, accounting for different conditions in that different country and conditions are certainly different. We have NATO allies helping us for one and even the geographic differences are huge but the counterinsurgency principles could work in Afghanistan. McClellan didn't say anything opposite of that. The counterinsurgency strategy going into Afghanistan, clearing, holding, rebuilding, the civil society and the infrastructure can work in Afghanistan

Well, firstly, she got the man's name wrong, but we'll gloss over that.

Part of the problem is a definition over just what 'surge' means. To some, it just means 'shoving more troops into an area for a short while.' That's 'surge' with a small 's'. To others, the 'Surge' (big 's') in the Iraq context involved a total strategy shift on how the troops were utilised in addition to simply having more troops around for a while.

If you simply take the former definition, which I believe is the way McKiernan used it in the WaPo interview, then Biden is fairly correct. McKiernan is not of the opinion that simply throwing troops at the problem for a brief period of time will fix it. However, he did not say that the overall Surge principles would not work, and in this Palin is also correct. McKiernan does want more troops, he's looking for at least four more brigades, but cautioned it's not a case of in for a year and then back home. It's a 'sustained commitment' that he thinks is required, involving a wide range of assets and programs.

So it all comes down to how you interpret what McKiernan was saying and what Biden was saying. However, there is one more piece of context to be thrown into the mix. The whole subject was brought up by Palin, with this remark.

The surge principles, not the exact strategy, but the surge principles that have worked in Iraq need to be implemented in Afghanistan, also.

My take on this is that she was referring to 'how the troops are used', not 'how long they will be there.' Biden took this as "how long they will be there" and thus was actually arguing a different issue.

So, within their own frames of reference, both are correct. Within the context in which the Afghanistan Surge was brought into the debate, Biden was wrong.

NTM

metrovelvet

Is that what he porposed to save the BOSNIACS? or did he use the drill he bought at Home Depot for that?

Lirange

Dave! wrote: »

BTW, Palin's voice reminds me of the film Fargo. Is [wherever that is set] near Alaska? I presume so, because there is snow in both.

I think Police Chief Marge would be more reassuring than Sarah. :pac:

She doesn't really have an Alaskan accent apparently. Saw part of a doco that said she grew up in a rural area so took on the accent of her parents/extended family who all have the upper midwest/Northern Rockies accent. Think Principal Victoria from South Park or Charlize Theron as Josey Aimes. Any way she may be a noice looking bird but I can't stand to listen to her. The nasally nunce.

turgon

I thought Palin was very shallow, and just trying to tug at the emotions of ignorant voters who will base their decision more on Palins demeanor than her actual views.

Like at the start, "Can I call you Joe?". Totally trying to pull off the "one of you" thing. For me the $300 glasses override that.

Dave!

A quality video of Bill Maher being interviewed about his new movie 'Religulous', but spends a good bit of time talking about Sarah Palin... hilarity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UieI2A3DMCM

JK: "Maybe she's being badgered by the team around her, and they're telling her to be so careful, don't say this, don't say that, do say this, do say that... etc"
Bill Maher: "Yeah. And she's also just a moron."

FrankGrimes

turgon wrote: »

I thought Palin was very shallow, and just trying to tug at the emotions of ignorant voters who will base their decision more on Palins demeanor than her actual views.

+1 on that though the sad thing is she did a very effective job at pitching her vague rhetoric to what amounts to a very large segment of American society that will lap that up and go for the whole 'maverick' thing despite the fact that she clearly has very little depth of knowledge. It was a smart ploy though I thought she came across as quite patronising at times with that big smug grin on her face during Biden's answers (would have anticipated this being the other way around).

Have to say she surprised me in how well she managed to learn off her responses (I wouldn't call them answers) and quickly lead into them regardless of what question was asked - it actually reminded me of the Irish orals for the Leaving Cert! The polls I saw on CBS suggested a lot of people have an improved opinion of her afterwards, though it's heartening to see only 46% of those polled thought she would do an effective job as president if needed. So despite the lack of any major blunders, I'm hoping enough people saw through her unwillingness or inability to answer most questions and that will leave people wondering about her ability and how poor judgement McCain has displayed in choosing her.

On the other hand, I personally was highly impressed by Biden - I thought he demonstrated excellent real insight into all areas, particularly foreign policy and he really went after McCain. That was a great tactic as going after Palin directly would have led to allegations that he was bullying her, which is another example of the benefits of sexism she is receiving (e.g. who honestly believes McCain would have picked her if she was a man with the same record, who would have thought those seeking to publicise her gross inadequacies would be accused of doing so based on her sex if she were a man?).

I think if most voters actually took the time to educate themselves on the key topics they would clearly see Obama/Biden have more understanding and real actionable ideas than McCain/Palin and it would be a convincing win for Obama. But I do fear that too many voters in middle America still have the frontier attitude of 'us against the world' and anyone who appeals to that on a very simplistic chest beating way will really appeal to them, so I do fear it is still too close to call. And I do genuinely fear the economic and world stability consequences if they do get elected.

besty

Good post mortem of the debate going on at the moment on Larry King, CNN if anyone has any interest. They just compiled a montage of Palin's winking and "folksy" comments.

is_that_so

73 million watched it. Must make the main protagonists feel inadequate.

Pocono Joe

In my opinion Palin won the debate. Biden's responses were filled with multiple errors - much much more than Palin.

I going to see John and Sarah next week... any questions ya'll want me to ask?

Macha

Pocono Joe wrote: »

In my opinion Palin won the debate. Biden's responses were filled with multiple errors - much much more than Palin.

Joke, right?

BenjAii

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I going to see John and Sarah next week... any questions ya'll want me to ask?

Ask John how many houses he owns, and see if he can remember it's 8 :-)

I was disappointed in Biden; given all his advantages he should have done so much better, but didn't.

I have increasing respect for Sarah Palin's abilities as a natural communicator, she has some of that Ronald Reagan magic about her.

However, I'm convinced her chance to use it will be another day. It's just looking more and more likely it will be President Obama.

Macha

BenjAii wrote: »

I was disappointed in Biden; given all his advantages he should have done so much better, but didn't.

I have increasing respect for Sarah Palin's abilities as a natural communicator, she has some of that Ronald Reagan magic about her.

However, I'm convinced her chance to use it will be another day. It's just looking more and more likely it will be President Obama.

Biden did as much as he could, given the circumstances. If he had come down too hard on her, the Republicans would have been screaming sexism. If you call talking in circles, not answering the question, winking and being folksy a "natural communicator" well..I don't know what to say.

For those interested in the facts, this is a good non-partisan organisation that checks the facts of all the debates, etc. Not surprisingly, Palin did quite a bit of lying & exaggerating. They pointed out a few from Biden, some of which were withdrawn in the corrections at the bottom:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

Palin - 9 lies
Biden - 4 lies ...as far as I can make out..

BenjAii

taconnol wrote: »

Biden did as much as he could, given the circumstances. If he had come down too hard on her,

No taconnol, he should have won overwhelmingly.

Given the complete and utter disaster Republican policies have brought America to at this point, he should have been able to communicate that,
and reach out and talk to people at an emotional level given these extraordinary times.

Instead he was competent and just ahead on points.

Technically a victory i'll grant you, but such a poor show considering what was called for.

Macha

BenjAii wrote: »

No taconnol, he should have won overwhelmingly.

Given the complete and utter disaster Republican policies have brought America to at this point, he should have been able to communicate that,
and reach out and talk to people at an emotional level given these extraordinary times.

Instead he was competent and just ahead on points.

Technically a victory i'll grant you, but such a poor show considering what was called for.

Ok he isn't the most moving speaker. But the format really suited Palin & didn't suit him. It also doesn't help when the person you're debating is lying as much as she did - and not answering the question. I think he put that across quite clearly.

BenjAii

taconnol wrote: »

Ok he isn't the most moving speaker. But the format really suited Palin & didn't suit him. It also doesn't help when the person you're debating is lying as much as she did - and not answering the question. I think he put that across quite clearly.

I get your point taconnel, and despite being on the Democrats side, I'm just looking at this objectively.

Biden failed to truly communicate with people over their anger/fear on what seems to be happening in the world at the moment.

And you know what, as true as it is to say Palin lied more, she outfoxed him.

She went into this with people thinking she would be a disaster and triumphed.

He went into this with the potential to be memorable or triumph and was merely competent, a huge missed opportunity.

Just saying ......

Black Swan

BenjAii wrote: »

Given the complete and utter disaster Republican policies have brought America to at this point, he should have been able to communicate that, and reach out and talk to people at an emotional level given these extraordinary times.

Instead he was competent and just ahead on points.

Indeed! He could have mounted a very strong attack on Bush's failed economic policies (or lack of effective policies), while tying McCain to Bush with a 90% Bush-favourable voting record over the past 8 years, and pounded away in terms understandable to the common folk, using Bush-McCain over and over again, as if that was the ticket and not McCain-Palin. By not attacking her directly, but McCain through her, it would have put her on the defensive, without Biden appearing to be bullying her? Palin, with her talking points note cards at the podium, would not have been able to ignore a heavy, constant attack on Bush-McCain, and would stumble when she was forced to leave the predetermined Karl Rove agenda, as she did in prior interviews?

The ultimate nightmare of this Republican presidential campaign is to tie McCain to Bush, because his job performance ratings have sunk to historic lows. This was where Biden should have focused, as if the ticket was Bush-McCain. If Obama is smart in the next two debates, this is what he will focus on.

turgon

taconnol wrote: »

Joke, right?

Dont worry about it taconnol, Sarah Palin could push someone off of a cliff, claim she thought they were terrorists, and Pocono Joe would be on here praising her. Clue: bias.

Its a pity people cant see past Palins blatant low information signals, and trying to appeal to the electorate by being a hockey mom instead of having real good issues.

silvervixen84

I thought it was hilarious when Palin would avoid the question being asked and start spouting gibberish about her energy policies - the screen would then split and all you see is Joe Biden flashing his all-American Colgate grin, kept me entertained anyway!

is_that_so

turgon wrote: »

Dont worry about it taconnol, Sarah Palin could push someone off of a cliff, claim she thought they were terrorists, and Pocono Joe would be on here praising her. Clue: bias.

Its a pity people cant see past Palins blatant low information signals, and trying to appeal to the electorate by being a hockey mom instead of having real good issues.

The trouble is that issues don't really count any more and Palin appeals or is attempting to appeal to a certain part of the electorate.

In performing as she did she restored a degree of credibility with that group. What I think is also true, and not just in the US, is that some people don't really care as long as they think someone is worth voting for.

Meanwhile the looming spectre of economic doom overshadows absolutely everything else. McCain is being associated with the problem and Obama is being seen as part of the solution.

As for the Palin digs, well that's what she's there for, however dubious or untruthful they are. This election really has degenerated into a competition of lies, although the GOP can claim the lion's share. As threads here have shown it doesn't really matter half the time whether there is any truth to a story just as long as it gets some oxygen.

The GOP recognise that this election is very much down to who "people think they can trust" and to hell with issues. There's may be an air of desperation about it , but with 30 odd days to go anything could happen.

CtrlSource

BenjAii wrote: »

Instead he was competent and just ahead on points.

Oh come on! He was way ahead on points! She didn't answer hardly any of the direct questions asked. She simply rattled off a series of cliches and referenced her prepared talking points. Obviously, she wasn't as bad as the Couric debates, but that wasn't exactly hard.

Biden did an excellent job. He was a firm but respectful debater, who showed more than a little passion for his brief in the second half of the debate

Pocono Joe

turgon wrote: »

Dont worry about it taconnol, Sarah Palin could push someone off of a cliff, claim she thought they were terrorists, and Pocono Joe would be on here praising her. Clue: bias.

Its a pity people cant see past Palins blatant low information signals, and trying to appeal to the electorate by being a hockey mom instead of having real good issues.

LOL. Not true in the least bit, but I understand it sounds witty to the like minded. As for the bias comment, unlike 90% or more of the print and television news sources, at least I have the courage to admit I am bias towards the republican side. Tell me, how much have you heard from “the media” about things like the Annenberg Papers, Khalid Al-Mansour, or the Philip Berg lawsuit. All matters of interest that would have been relentlessly perused by the media if they were associated with the McCain/Palin ticket.

As for the debate, look at the answers and follow-ups to the question of Who was at fault in the subprime financial crisis, probably one of the most important parts of the debate. But I would also look at the truth to the “points” that Biden is so credited for as “winning the debate” before I would make any blind comments. And I find it sadly telling of this election that Obama, who after 100 or so days as a US Senator decides he is qualified to be President of the United States. Yet a Governor who has a 80% favorability rating, of one of the largest states that poses some of the most problematic infrastructure systems and that alsoo provides us with so much of our domestic energy resources, is portrayed as a buffoon. Also, Palin is the only one of the four to have any executive experience in this run for the executive positions of President/VP. It simply boggles the mind.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

she also thinks dinosaurs and people lived together and believes in witches.

metrovelvet

Both Palin and Biden are the top of their ticket;they should be the pres candidates.

Palin did a Reaganesque job of insipiring the American people but where she failed as a debator is in tackling Biden's gaffes. I want to see the pitbull.

Who showed up? The hockey mom.

FatherTed

Pocono Joe wrote: »

...

I going to see John and Sarah next week... any questions ya'll want me to ask?

Not much point in asking Sarah anything, she'll either won't have a clue what you're talking about or she'll just talk about something completely unrelated.