It's an ill wind...nice to see bankers making best of bad times

jmayo

There are two reports of "alleged" incidents making the news today that just goes further to possibly show what our bankers really think of us the taxpayers, the government and the bailout, sorry guarantee, they recieved earlier in the week.

From Independent
"The Financial Regulator is reportedly set to investigate an email circulated by the son of Irish Nationwide boss Michael Fingleton in relation to the Government's bank deposit guarantee.
He reportedly cited the protection of the Government's deposit guarantee and described Irish Nationwide as "the safest place to deposit money in Europe".

See full article here ...
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/financial-regulator-to-investigate-irish-nationwide-email-1488825.html

The other article concerned that other fine financial institution Anglo and two of it's leading lights.

"THE Irish Stock Exchange is investigating a number of share dealings in Anglo Irish Bank, including those by the bank chairman Sean FitzPatrick and fellow director Lar Bradshaw, in the run-up to the Government's decision to introduce its €400bn bailout package."

See full article here ...
http://www.independent.ie/business/stocks-markets/bank-chiefs-facing-share-deals-probe-1488613.html

Personnally I believe if these articles prove to be true the people concerned should be hung out to dry if not jailed.
The Anglo issue looks like a possible case of using inside knowledge to make a quick buck at the gravest of times for our economy and entire banking sector.
Fingelton's letter could have huge reprecusions, because it will only inflame the concerns that the Uk government and the EU commission authorities have about our government bailout and what it does to competition.

magick

while i would welcome a bailout, i would however name and shame the people who brought about this collapse

MCMLXXXIII

magick wrote: »

while i would welcome a bailout, i would however name and shame the people who brought about this collapse

Whether or not there is a bailout, or how much it would be, I think we deserve to know who is responsible for this.

I'm sure they will learn from their mistake, but I don't think they deserve to be "rewarded" for their actions by keeping their positions or taking another high-ranking position at any kind of company. This has caused almost irreparable damage to the economy and the people of Ireland and any of the companies or people that have invested here.

Even if they do keep their job or get a new position, we deserve to know so that we may watch that company and position more closely.

Agent J

NAme & Shame?

More like fired and & jailed.

And Irish nationwide should be publically told in no uncertain terms that if so much as sneeze out of line from this point on this guarentee will be whipped out from under them.

Something should be done publically and quickly or else we get a "see, told ya so " from the EU about competition.

Mr Magnolia

jmayo wrote: »

There are two reports of "alleged" incidents making the news today that just goes further to possibly show what our bankers really think of us the taxpayers, the government and the bailout, sorry guarantee, they recieved earlier in the week.

From Independent
"The Financial Regulator is reportedly set to investigate an email circulated by the son of Irish Nationwide boss Michael Fingleton in relation to the Government's bank deposit guarantee.
He reportedly cited the protection of the Government's deposit guarantee and described Irish Nationwide as "the safest place to deposit money in Europe".

See full article here ...
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/financial-regulator-to-investigate-irish-nationwide-email-1488825.html

The other article concerned that other fine financial institution Anglo and two of it's leading lights.

"THE Irish Stock Exchange is investigating a number of share dealings in Anglo Irish Bank, including those by the bank chairman Sean FitzPatrick and fellow director Lar Bradshaw, in the run-up to the Government's decision to introduce its €400bn bailout package."

See full article here ...
http://www.independent.ie/business/stocks-markets/bank-chiefs-facing-share-deals-probe-1488613.html

Personnally I believe if these articles prove to be true the people concerned should be hung out to dry if not jailed.
The Anglo issue looks like a possible case of using inside knowledge to make a quick buck at the gravest of times for our economy and entire banking sector.
Fingelton's letter could have huge reprecusions, because it will only inflame the concerns that the Uk government and the EU commission authorities have about our government bailout and what it does to competition.

I'm not aware of what way the government is charging the banks for this bail-out* but if it's based on % profits then is this not a revenue generator?



*has this info been released yet?

jonny72

I blame the lack of rules in the market place more than the bankers..

It needs to be regulated more, people will always be there to make a fast buck/expoit loopholes

easy guv'nor

The taxpayer should demand a return on the bail-out and this should be outlined in specific terms asap. A realistic return.
As for the "alleged" insider trading, naming and shaming is not enough, surely a law can be found to prosecute if it's warranted.

is_that_so

A lot of this is still being hammered out although the option of kicking banks out of the guarantee does seem to be under discussion, along with a number of other ministerial powers. This seems to include Govt members on the board, State loans/recapitalisation, possible forced mergers and nationalisation. The key thing will be to get the balance on it right, i.e. stringent enforceable controls and conditions without taking a bank down. We should know by early next week.

mountainyman

The buying from the Anglo Directors seems to me to be entirely apporpriate. It is the best way for directors to 'put their money where their mouth is'.

wasper

jmayo wrote: »

There are two reports of "alleged" incidents making the news today that just goes further to possibly show what our bankers really think of us the taxpayers, the government and the bailout, sorry guarantee, they recieved earlier in the week.

From Independent
"The Financial Regulator is reportedly set to investigate an email circulated by the son of Irish Nationwide boss Michael Fingleton in relation to the Government's bank deposit guarantee.
He reportedly cited the protection of the Government's deposit guarantee and described Irish Nationwide as "the safest place to deposit money in Europe".

See full article here ...
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/financial-regulator-to-investigate-irish-nationwide-email-1488825.html

The other article concerned that other fine financial institution Anglo and two of it's leading lights.

"THE Irish Stock Exchange is investigating a number of share dealings in Anglo Irish Bank, including those by the bank chairman Sean FitzPatrick and fellow director Lar Bradshaw, in the run-up to the Government's decision to introduce its €400bn bailout package."

See full article here ...
http://www.independent.ie/business/stocks-markets/bank-chiefs-facing-share-deals-probe-1488613.html

Personnally I believe if these articles prove to be true the people concerned should be hung out to dry if not jailed.
The Anglo issue looks like a possible case of using inside knowledge to make a quick buck at the gravest of times for our economy and entire banking sector.
Fingelton's letter could have huge reprecusions, because it will only inflame the concerns that the Uk government and the EU commission authorities have about our government bailout and what it does to competition.

I think the government should demand that all CEOs & top level management in all the financial sector that nearly brought this country to its knees demand to be removed from their positions.

heyjude

wasper wrote: »

I think the government should demand that all CEOs & top level management in all the financial sector that nearly brought this country to its knees demand to be removed from their positions.

Agreed and they should demand substantial share options(at todays prices to be exercised 5-10 years from now) in all the major banks that stand to benefit from state guarantees.

If the taxpayer is to be asked to act as insurer for these huge financial institutions, then we should ensure that we fully benefit from the recovery in their share price. The banks were happy to give such share options to the senior management that presided over the banks' decent into the current crisis, so why not offer the same incentive to those responsible for their recovery(ie. the taxpayers)

Mr.Micro

This whole banking fiasco is obviously worse than we have all been led to believe as it is worldwide problem. The banks have so much debt that in reality they are all probably bankrupt. Governments have no choice but to back them. The IMF talking about a $trillion plus bailout now, so what the hell was the $750 billion then, the wages and bonuses I guess.


This from Bush the most disasterous President in history IMO and he still talking, as if anybody believes aword he says.



Bush urges joint crisis response
A common response must be "well thought-out", Mr Bush says.

Thats rich coming from him.....well thought out.

jmayo

Mr.Micro wrote: »

This whole banking fiasco is obviously worse than we have all been led to believe as it is worldwide problem. The banks have so much debt that in reality they are all probably bankrupt. Governments have no choice but to back them. The IMF talking about a $trillion plus bailout now, so what the hell was the $750 billion then, the wages and bonuses I guess.

This from Bush the most disasterous President in history IMO and he still talking, as if anybody believes aword he says.

Bush urges joint crisis response
A common response must be "well thought-out", Mr Bush says.

Thats rich coming from him.....well thought out.

Yes there are problems in the worldwide financial markets but our problems are not down to subprime toxic debt per se.
We have a huge problem with the lending our banks/building societies carried out over the last 6 odd years in relation to property and construction industry. According to some JP Morgan report our top 3 banks are under capitalised ?

Nobody will lend to Irish banks becuase they firmly believe there are huge problems with the amount of property related debts they are carrying.
The banks/institutions are refusing to admit this is a problem.
The inept and useless financial regulator refuses to admit this is a major problem. His Prime Time interview hardly instilled confidence, in fact it had the opposite effects.

David McWilliams had a valid point the other night on Q & As, when he stated that the Minister for Finance and the Dept. of Finance should demand full disclosure from the banks.

They should send into the banks non-Irish related banking & financial experts to ascertain the true state of the balance sheets.
The property markets are not moving because people believe that prices will drop even futher and it is becoming a drawn out affair.
The banks need to move on developers & builders, something they have refused to do so far in the vain hope some miracle comes down the tracks to safe their ar**s.
It may become a fire sale but at least we might know we have reached the bottom of the market and things could start to pick up.

Anyway back to topic, nice to see Nationwide were fined €50,000 for the greedy attitude of one of their execs :rolleyes:
What percentage was that of the actual money transferred into them as a result of OUR guarantee?

At a time like this in other countries both Fingeltons would be on their ar*** out in the street, either through internal pressure from their own institution, banking regulators or government, but in good old Ireland they sail happily on laughing at us :rolleyes:

Mr.Micro

jmayo, I watched that Primetime programme and I posted earlier in the week on it. The so called regulator is a joke and I agree with your sentiments. He appeared clueless and refused to accept that the banks were to blame and harped on about liquidity. To me he looked and acted like a banker there to regulate other bankers which in effect was no regulation. I too felt even worse after the interview and he appeared totally incompetent IMO.

Following that this week the chairman of AIB too refused to accept that the banks are to blame. All these peope should be sacked as soon as things settle down and not as business as usual. The rot has set in and will stay with a totally IMO inept, weak, pointless, toothless regulator and a just as bad Central Bank. One person that has been in the media can run up loans of 85 million Euro then how many more are there out there like that?

djpbarry

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Following that this week the chairman of AIB too refused to accept that the banks are to blame. All these peope should be sacked as soon as things settle down and not as business as usual.

And all the people who took out mortgages that they couldn't afford; they should all be punished in some way too, right?

I'm not saying that the bank execs are saints; far from it. But it's all too easy to point the finger at the big bad banks for the current mess, when essentially all they were doing was giving everyone the money they wanted to build/buy houses. People weren't complaining when they were getting the money they needed, but now, all of a sudden, the conduct of the banks was totally unacceptable (largely because the media is telling them that’s the case).

jmayo

djpbarry wrote: »

And all the people who took out mortgages that they couldn't afford; they should all be punished in some way too, right?

I'm not saying that the bank execs are saints; far from it. But it's all too easy to point the finger at the big bad banks for the current mess, when essentially all they were doing was giving everyone the money they wanted to build/buy houses. People weren't complaining when they were getting the money they needed, but now, all of a sudden, the conduct of the banks was totally unacceptable (largely because the media is telling them that’s the case).

Yes, lots of people were foolish to accept crazy mortgages that they are saddled with for the rest of their working lives and beyond.

There was a concerted effort by all the so called vested interests to get people to borrow more in order to spend more on the great housing industry. Anyone that was benefiting in any way was busy making sure the gravy train kept running as long as possible.
Anyone that shouted stop was condemmed as a whinger.

The thing that bankers did was keep feeding money into this merrygoround with no thought to the fact that at some stage the prices could not continue rising, supply would far exceed demand and things would stop.
Any idiot knows that after every boom there will be a correction i.e. a bust.
It is the way of the world so why not prepare a little for it ?

Why continue to fire money at developers when you know the housing market is reaching saturation point and shows signs of slowing. Why finance the collosal over inflated purcashe price of a couple of major Dublin hotels, when the whole profitability of the deal could hinge on the fact you have to get planning to build a bloody skyscraper and sell appartments at over €1,000,0000.

IMHO the banks lent recklessly, giving people 100% mortgages and considering renting a room as part of people's income. They were giving loans to students not for study fees but for cars, holidays, etc.
Properties were often overvalued so that inverstors could remortgage and buy more.
To highlight how shoddy the whole system had become see how the likes of Ling pulled the wool over multiple institutions eyes by mortgaging the one place multiple times. Yes I knwo that is also problem with the way we do handle house purchases.

All the while the bankers were taking more bonuses for their increased sales.
People depositing money were treated as if we were gob*****. Sure why not borrow more and buy an investment property, we can do you a great deal on a mortgage :rolleyes:

Then when the wheels do fall off, they run off to the government demanding bail outs because of course without the banks the economy crashes completly.

You have to have some sort of regulation both for the customers good and for the industry itself long term. Look what a mess the legal system is now in. Another cosy self regulated cartel.
There was no regulation it now seems in banking, or what there was was a joke and this goes for right around the world.
The bankers came up with interesting products to circumvent regulations, allow themselves to earn even more bonuses and carry on their merry way.
But it is the ordinary joes that are now going to be carrying the can.

Mr.Micro

djpbarry wrote: »

And all the people who took out mortgages that they couldn't afford; they should all be punished in some way too, right?

I'm not saying that the bank execs are saints; far from it. But it's all too easy to point the finger at the big bad banks for the current mess, when essentially all they were doing was giving everyone the money they wanted to build/buy houses. People weren't complaining when they were getting the money they needed, but now, all of a sudden, the conduct of the banks was totally unacceptable (largely because the media is telling them that’s the case).

No, you are being far too simplistic about it. Its not just about mortgages here in Ireland, its also massive foreign debt as well. The banks worldwide are an exclusive club and between them they have brought near economic meltdown, pension funds, investments obliterated. Are you happy to see the likes of the incompetents keeping their jobs and salaries and continuing to do business as normal? Can we afford the insecurity? The banks will never be trusted again. Have you seen what the banks have done in Iceland? Have you read about Lehman, AIG, Fortis etc that is not just the media?

Starting in the US the financial institutions have manipulated interest rates for the last number of years to keep them historically low and encouraged borrowing and more borrowing, and then sucked in sub prime borrowers when the good customers were saturated with debt, all to keep the bubble going. Ireland along with other countries followed suit with absolutely no limit to the amount of money being loaned also no safety net. What happened tp prudence and pragmatism, not to mention logic and commom sense? If your accountant behaved in such a fashion, first you would sack him/her, then report him/her or take some form of action. sack the banking executives as they cannot be trusted ever again with their cosy self regulation. It makes me laugh whenever I hear on the radio " regulated by the financial regulator ".