Insulated twin wall stainless steel chimney flues for a solid fuel stove

niceirishfella

Hi,

I'm looking for source insulated twin wall stainless steel chimney flues for a solid fuel stove install i'm going to do.

Now i know there is MI flues etc, but they only sell to the trade, not the end user?
Anyone know where to get it direct - its a very pricey gear?!:eek:
Hope you can help.

Rgds,
NIF.

northdublin

when instaling my own stove i bought all the materials inc the stove in bohills in drogheda........termonfeckin to be exact. very helpfull and should have everything you need there.

CJhaughey

I used Poujoulat brand twinwall stainless flue, Class stuff with all the correct fittings and clamps etc.
I got mine from Flor O'Mahony in Togher in Cork city. He also supplies the lead slates for the flue exiting the roof.

niceirishfella

How was the pricing CJ?

stapeler

I purchased directly from MI flues about 2 yrs ago. My chimney which runs approx 5 meters with four 45degree bends came to about €1600.

niceirishfella

stapeler wrote: »

I purchased directly from MI flues about 2 yrs ago. My chimney which runs approx 5 meters with four 45degree bends came to about €1600.

do MI sell direct to the public?
Or did you have a contact in there?

stapeler

I had no contact there. At the time I just phoned them (046 9558034) and they put me through to an engineer who put took a sketch and put together a list of materials. I'm not sure if it was the fact that I was local made any difference. Easiest thing is to call them and ask. I'm sure with the current softening in the market they may be more than happy to deal.

CJhaughey

NIF.
Sorry, I can't recall the price of the flue, I bought a woodstove and flue complete at the time and I can't remember the cost of the flue alone.
Plus, I was building the house at the time and the whole thing is just a blur....

Podgemcd

Hi Guys,

We are currently thinking of fittng a Stanley Erin stove to our new build. The builder has added the Stainless Steel Connector about 6ft from the ground and then standard, (orange), piping the rest of the way. We currently only have reached first floor level. Is there somthing we're missing?

P

niceirishfella

No, your is a new build..........twin wall SS flue is normally used in a retro fit application.
Talk to your engineer or builder and ask him whats what.

Podgemcd

I get you now. Thanks for the answer. It was the engineer who specified the current setup.

niceirishfella

no worries, best of luck with the build!

fmcc

podge make sure an adapter was fitted between the flexi liner and the orange clay pots otherwise you will ahve a built up of soot over the years possibly leading to chiomney fires as it makes it very difficult to clean without it.

Carlow52

fmcc wrote: »

podge make sure an adapter was fitted between the flexi liner and the orange clay pots otherwise you will ahve a built up of soot over the years possibly leading to chiomney fires as it makes it very difficult to clean without it.

my read of the thread is that the steel flue connector will take the stove pipe from the Stanley so no need for flexi

fmcc

Ana adapter is need to reduce from the orange clay pot to the 6" flue whether its flexi or rigid flue. The adapter has sloped sides to stop soot gathering.

Podgemcd

The adaptor is a tapered Stainless Steel Fitting and is in place. thanks for the assistance guys. Feel free to give me a shout if ye have any questions too.......... I am glad of all assistance I get

sooty_soupy

Firstly, I would suggest buying a better quality stove. From what I can gather the Stanley stuff is made in a factory in China along with some other stuff that is suspect to say the least. The airwash is virtually non existent which leads to blackening of the glass.
The other thing you all need to be aware of is the fact that your Irish standards will state that flue connections with spigot and socket joints should be orientated with sockets pointing upwards to contain moistures. This being said, the adapters you are talking about contravene building regulations and simply are useless when condensate issues arise. Reducing the diameter of the flue to suit the appliance is also a requirement of your building regulations, as oversize flues can be unsafe. Solid fuel heating is not something to be messed with. I have been a registered chimney technician in the North for over 20 years. I am Chairman of the Northern Ireland Association of Chimney Sweeps, the fist member of the National Association of Chimney Engineers in Northern Ireland and hae given seminars for building control with regards to flue and chimney safety. DON'T MESS WITH IT, unless you know what you are doing. Insurance companies are getting a bit sticky about paying out on fire damage if you have not complied to standards in place for YOUR SAFETY.

Our web site might be interesting reading for many of you.
BTW there is a lot of reading. We are revamping the site soon too so it might be down for a day or so, but if you need advice or supplies of flue systems, or perhaps a GOOD stove such as the prestigious CLEARVIEW stoves, give us a shout. It also is worth checking out
Hope this helps

Podgemcd

sooty_soupy wrote: »

Firstly, I would suggest buying a better quality stove. From what I can gather the Stanley stuff is made in a factory in China along with some other stuff that is suspect to say the least. The airwash is virtually non existent which leads to blackening of the glass.
The other thing you all need to be aware of is the fact that your Irish standards will state that flue connections with spigot and socket joints should be orientated with sockets pointing upwards to contain moistures. This being said, the adapters you are talking about contravene building regulations and simply are useless when condensate issues arise. Reducing the diameter of the flue to suit the appliance is also a requirement of your building regulations, as oversize flues can be unsafe. Solid fuel heating is not something to be messed with. I have been a registered chimney technician in the North for over 20 years. I am Chairman of the Northern Ireland Association of Chimney Sweeps, the fist member of the National Association of Chimney Engineers in Northern Ireland and hae given seminars for building control with regards to flue and chimney safety. DON'T MESS WITH IT, unless you know what you are doing. Insurance companies are getting a bit sticky about paying out on fire damage if you have not complied to standards in place for YOUR SAFETY.

Our web site might be interesting reading for many of you.
BTW there is a lot of reading. We are revamping the site soon too so it might be down for a day or so, but if you need advice or supplies of flue systems, or perhaps a GOOD stove such as the prestigious CLEARVIEW stoves, give us a shout. It also is worth checking out
Hope this helps

I would like t question your information you posted above. What have you based your decision to run down this manufacturer on? ......

1. Stanley / Waterford Stanley are considered one of the best in the business (Proven Over time)

2. I specified the stove through calculating heating needs and the available hot water output from the stove.

3. The Stanley Erin has one of the best efficiencies out there, losing less heat up the chimney, (most of it actually gets translated into water or room)

Don't get me wrong but it seems as though you are a tad arrogant about it and not at all helpful on this subject. As far as I'm aware, you cannot discredit a manufacturer in any way on these boards???

I checked out many stoves, just like anyone else here and came to the conclusion that the Erin was the best fit an best oveall for the application. It also looks more attractive than any of its rivals. I checked out the stove you mentioned also a long time ago and it doesn't measure up to much compared to the others.

I would however be open to any info anyone has on why not to pick the Erin stove........... that isn't bsed on opinion or the fact that you may work for a company that sells a different make of stove!!!

Podge

sooty_soupy

Podge, I am going to address the points you make first then if you can be bothered to read the rest of this reply you might get a better idea of where I am coming from.

1. I didn't mean to sound like I was running down one manufacturer directly. Stanley have built a fantastic reputation over the years...in their kitchen range products. With my experience in the field working with all the stoves, I would question how well this expertise has translated to building stoves which are a different product entirely, and perhaps not so much research has gone into the stove side of their business model. Many of their stoves blacken the glass constantly unless it is burnt very hot, which in fact reduces the efficiency, however in the instruction for the stove it would suggest this is how you keep the glass clear. A stove should be able to burn at a steady or low rate and still have a good visible flame.

2. Efficiency is something all stove manufacturers strive for. This is fine when they come out of a box new, but if you read on you will find out what happens after a while of using the stove. Your comments are interesting about the fact that flue temperatures are considered low with this stove. If this is the case it would be a major mistake to fit the stove to a clay lining system which is designed to function with an open fire which produces high flue temperatures all the time. Condensate is a stove users worst nightmare, especially if the builder has installed the liners upside down or his joints between the liners are less than perfect all the way through the system. If he has not used insulation behind the flues built there at the moment, I would suggest you think long and hard about maintianing flue gas temperatures on a controlled burn. A boiler model will only serve to reduce flue temperatures BEFORE they get into the flue. I would also question why none of the Stanley stoves have been passed to burn in smoke controlled areas if they are so clean and efficient.

3. Finally to your comment on what measures up. The stove you select needs to look attractive not just when it comes out of a box, but in 2...3...5...10 years time. Maintenance is also an issue. How often are you going to need to purchase parts for the stove, and what price are they? Things such as what is the after sales service like? what does the warranty cover and for how long? does the manufacturer give you a money back guarantee if you are not entirely satisfied? all very important questions to ask. I'm not sure which forum and review sites you have been to, while researching the credentials of stoves. I would hope they are review sites from end users rather than just salespeople. It seems your comments on the Clearview range are contrary to what many users have made, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion I guess. There are other stoves that would perhaps fit the bill that might be worthy of looking at though, such as the Charnwood range or Dunsley Yorkshire apparently is a very good central heating stove that is also approved for smoke controlled areas, and from what I can gather this is quite an accolade for a boiler model.

Now if you are willing to read on, I will try to show how helpful I am prepared to be to strangers on the internet and impart my knowledge freely. It has took me a while to prepare this advice, but after reading this you should perhaps be in a position to accept that I am trying to be of assistance.

Perhaps I need to clarify what I meant to say about the Stanley stoves. It seems universally accepted that a lot of stoves are mass produced in China, then sent back here to be packaged. "Born in Ireland" for example doesn't mean "Made in Ireland". It is just simple cost cutting, nothing more nothing less. After 20 years in the industry I have worked with every kind of stove you can imagine, and have good and bad experiences with them all. As a registered chimney technician and technical consultant, working for many of the leading insurance companies and loss adjusters, I tend to see many of the problems and some manufacturers give more than others.

When problems arise, I will base my overall impression of a product by how well the manufacturer performs with after sales which is very important. For example a certain stove arrived damaged from a certain manufacturer. We were told to continue installing the body of the stove, and a replacement door would be sent. After a month we were told a shipment was overdue from China. Long story short we waited 12 weeks. When it arrived it was the wrong colour enamel, and all the while we are without payment until the job was complete, so you can imagine it is difficult to give glowing reports.

It is also worth noting that a lot can be learnt about a company by the level of knowledge the technical wing is able to offer. A fitting firm we trained recently who are based south of Dublin approached a certain "manufacturer" in Ireland and found that much of their advice on installation flew in the face of building control guidelines and document J. If the company who are supposedly giving technical advice to the consumer don't understand the guidelines we are to work with what hope does the end user have?

The other issue we have with many stoves is the fact that the boilers are integral to the appliance. This means that if and when problems arise with the boiler, the whole stove will need to be replaced. Lets face it, glass, tiles, rope seals etc can all be replaced, but if a boiler fails, there are not many options but to dump the stove and buy a new one...which hardly seems fair on the consumer, especially when other manufacturers can supply a similar boiler output without permanently fitting it.

"Cast Iron" stoves as opposed to steel stoves has been an ongoing argument within the industry for many years. It seems there are pro's and con's for both and the discussion will continue to rumble on. It is fair to conclude that unlike VHS-Betamax and BlueRay-HDdisc, there will never be a true winner.

What we would express a concern with is scrap metal is taken to Asia...half way around the globe, resmelted, and formed into something else using a weakened grade of iron, then shipped back around the globe again. You can imagine that any benefit of burning a carbon neutral fuel to help the planet on such a well travelled lump of cast has been undone. Then when you take it out of a box and put heat into it, you find that the stove you thought was made of cast iron is actually a weaker derivitive of CAST, and when it is exposed to heat, the plates can suffer in quite a short space of time. Cast stoves are made with plates that are sealed and bolted together. The constant movement of expansion and contraction can weaken the seals. Controllability of the stove and it's efficient burn rate suffers as it sucks excessive air through the seals and causes over burn and eventually thermal shock will crack the plates. Over burn can often effect the enamel stoves too which takes away from their good looks. Cast stoves will retain heat for a longer period, but a lot of the steel stoves are as heavy in construction these days to help bring them up to the levels a cast stove can give. The steel stoves are easier to seal and often many of the steel products are folded steel reducing joints. This means that the risk of excessive air being introduced to the firebox that is not controllable is significantly less. Being steel they are more forgiving if the inadvertant overburn occurs a few times

A key feature of a good stove is the facility to bring the combustion air required for such a big stove directly into the appliance. Failing this, you will be required to put a permanent vent in the wall to bring oxygenated air to the room to replenish the air a big stove requires to allow for complete combustion. Carbon Monoxide is a killer and the stove will win the battle for reducing oxygen in the home. It will be worth checking with building control if you need to validate what I am saying, ut you will find it to be correct. It would appear that such a large KW output on the Stanley will require a lot of permanent air, which in turn will lead to unpleasant draughts in the room whether the stove is lit or not. Something the home owner needs to be made aware of when they are striving to make the home as airtight and efficient as possible I suspect.

Flue gas temperatures are going to be significantly lower with a boiler stove as opposed to a dry model, so it is worth noting that the need to use the correct size of flue is critical, and a steel lining sleeve, with a backfill of insulation is one of the best ways to ensure the chimney does not allow condensates to build up.

I am sorry I might have come across as arrogant, and it was not my intention, but when people are seeking advice through these forums and the incorrect advice is being given to them, I tend to get hot under the collar. I feel it is only right to guide them in the correct direction.

I have had meetings with the Irish Standards Agency and found that Document J has been adopted which is the current document for England and Wales also. Everything I have said in relation to flue systems and installation are within the document. I have trained installers in the South as well as the North, give seminars for Building Control and have given guidance to manufacturers on flue issues, so I feel I am in a position to give sound advice. If I mix this with personal experiences of stoves it is only in an effort to offer guidance.

Good luck with your stove installation and if you would like any further advice, I would be prepared to help accordingly.

Best regards

Podgemcd

Thanks Sooty Soupy,

I have to admit that reading your first post, it sounded like you had an axe to grind with the "Manufacturer"! but in reading your latest one, you have based it on experience in the business.

I did actually read all of your post as anybody who puts that amount of information out there for free deserves people to read it. I am very thankful for the advice and also the insight into how the stove will work within my home.

I appologise for my previous post as I was reading others also and being given advice here and there about all aspects relating to our build. Maybe I wasn't reading what I wanted to read!

My choice of stove was based on end user opinion and not a sales guy. I'm an engineer myself and have learned to take all sales pitches with pinch of salt! Thats just life though! I will continue to look into it and will definitely give your suggestions a second look and implement your suggested actions.

Thanks again for the assistance. You were most helpful.

Podge

sooty_soupy

You are most welcome Podge. I spend a lot of time educating people on the use and installation of stoves, more often than not, AFTER the thing has been fitted. It annoys the hell out of me to be the one to pick up the pieces the cowboys leave behind them.

I am not sure if you have heard of an organisation called HETAS, which is like the watchdog body over the solid fuel industry, much like CORGI covers the gas industry in England Scotland and Wales. Our association of chimney sweeps are actively working to bring about changes to the industry in the North and I know there are individuals working to do the same for you guys down there.

On a final note, if you are ever in the North, our showroom and flue training centre is about 35 minutes from Newry, even if you do decide to buy the Stanley. If you have an engineering background, I would be VERY surprised if you were not impressed with the Clearview range if you were ever passing by. We have tea rooms adjoining which is an ideal way to experience one of our three live stoves which are lit to demonstrate their performance.

All the very best

David

sooty_soupy

Podge, on a final note, if you let me have your email address I have a couple of interesting photos on my travels as a flue inspector. One of a cast iron stove after a few years and one being a very good example of why the steel increasing adapters should never be used....see how helpful I am trying to be

agentsmith

Hi David, thanks for your post which I found very informative and helpful. Can you maybe pm me your showroom/website address etc as would like to check out. Would also like to get some advice on stove/flue design for new extension (can fwd pics etc).

rgds

sooty_soupy

Hi Agentsmith,

I opening share the advice as you will see to try and put paid to the cowboys in the solid fuel industry. You will find details of our showroom and the Clearview stove range which are considered one of the industry leaders for many different reasons.

The 17 customers from the Republic that bought their Clearview from us last week alone can't all be wrong.

Best regards

dafeens

Folks,
Following on from the above thread, maybe you could help me out with this query?

I am building a house at the moment and want to install a solid fuel free standing stove. The stove will only be used for room heating. Our house does not have a chimney. The house has single membrane low pitch roof (~3 degrees).
The insulated flue will need to be about 2.5 - 3m to go from the stove through the ceiling area and out through the roof.
Is there a universal insulated chimney/flue stack available that I can install to allow the roofers flash to the flue?

Thanks

sooty_soupy

Twin wall flue is a very versatile product for installing a venting system to a property with no chimney provision. Like everything in life, however, there are good and bad and just OK quality systems out there. Most of the registered chimney technicians use Docherty Chimney Group products, which carry a 20 year warranty. Often as chimney sweeps we find the inner core rotting through within a short period of time with the cheaper brands. Just like stoves, you have to ask yourself why some companies charge more than others, and yes some of the reason might be prestige and branding, but you have to accept the R&D and quality of the products used have to be part of the reason.

If you want to come up to our showroom in the North, we have a flue training centre, as well as the Clearview stove range. Our web site makes for interesting reading also.

Be aware that if you are installing a stove with a greater KW output than 5KW you will be forced by building control to install a permanent vent to the outside to allow for combustion air to be introduced into the room. If you think about big stoves, and their insatiable appetite for oxygen...the stuff your body wants too, all too often the modern home does not have the movement of air to serve both, and your stove will win the battle. Carbon Monoxide is nicknamed the silent killer for a reason.

One of the main reasons we sell so many Clearview's to the North and South market is not only the superior clean window they are famous for, but the ability to connect this air supply directly to the appliance, much like the original BAXI fire...the one with the sunken ashpan. The air is ducted under the floor or through the wall. The advantage of this fireplace was the reduction of draughts under doors and through windows, which happens with all combustion appliances when you need flue gasses to rise up through a chimney system, and our Clearview is one of the few that can do this on all models.

Have a look our site. It may be a bit of reading, but sometimes doing your homework now will pay in the long term.

Carlow52

SS:
from your website

So much so, building control guidelines for UK and Ireland state "a flue should be lined to reduce the diameter to suit the appliance as over sized flues can be unsafe".

Can u provide links to the source documentation for both jurisdictions please

sooty_soupy

Hi forum users,

I am publicly apologising to all users and Delly the Mod, for the use of our website link on the posts. I would be lying if I were not actively encouraging people to see the info on the stoves, as I am confident they are some of the better units available, but my main intention was to clear up some of the myths about flue systems and encourage users to do a little more research before installing solid fuel heating systems, which would carry combustion products through the home, without understanding the risks associated with it.

As Chairman of the Northern Ireland Association of Chimney Sweeps, registered instructor of chimney technicians throughout the North and South, and a technical advisor to Building Control, I don't take the safety of the general public in my industry lightly, and to hear that people are just "sticking things in" or "adapting this part to that" is infuriating when we have so many people overcoe with or losing their lives to Carbon Monoxide poisoning in Ireland and the UK.

I guess anyone who really wants to find out about such matters can PM me, or google us.

Apologies once more

David

Carlow52

sooty_soupy wrote: »

Hi forum users,

I am publicly apologising to all users and Delly the Mod, for the use of our website link on the posts. I would be lying if I were not actively encouraging people to see the info on the stoves, as I am confident they are some of the better units available, but my main intention was to clear up some of the myths about flue systems and encourage users to do a little more research before installing solid fuel heating systems, which would carry combustion products through the home, without understanding the risks associated with it.

As Chairman of the Northern Ireland Association of Chimney Sweeps, registered instructor of chimney technicians throughout the North and South, and a technical advisor to Building Control, I don't take the safety of the general public in my industry lightly, and to hear that people are just "sticking things in" or "adapting this part to that" is infuriating when we have so many people overcome with or losing their lives to Carbon Monoxide poisoning in Ireland and the UK.

I guess anyone who really wants to find out about such matters can PM me, or google us.

Apologies once more

David

I concur with the technical concerns expressed here.
As the AT of houses increases, proper ventilation for all fuel burning appliances need to be done properly.
Prior to the advent of the double glazed/weather stripped/ AT house it did not make much difference as houses were so drafty.

The one thing I would add here is the need to sweep the chimney twice a year, at the end of the burning season and at the beginning of the new, just to make sure that the chimney has not been blocked by birds nests or other debris.

A properly installed stove should be fitted with suitable access to facilitate this cleaning: most DIY jobs dont.

PureBred

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/member.php?u=236668 Could you pm me details of your store?

sooty_soupy

An agreement between myself and the Moderators, I am not prepared to blatantly publish the details in the open forums, but I would say that following the advice of one of the mods, you will find the details you need by either checking out our profile, or following the clues in the signature.

Best regards

David