China is rapidly developing a highly modern military

conceited

China aims for military might

China is rapidly developing a highly modern military that will be the equal of Western armies with the ability to operate anywhere in the world.



By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent
Last Updated: 3:08AM BST 29 Sep 2008

China isdeveloping a modern military, second only to America Photo: REUTERS


Senior defence analysts said that within the next decade the country will have an army that will be second only to America's military might which could "embolden" it to military action.
The rapid growth of China's navy is matched by its desire to expand into the Indian Ocean and South China Sea to feed resources into its voracious economy.
The analysts, from Jane's Information Group, believe that the Chinese Communist Party can only continue to rule the country if it maintains economic growth at more than 10 per cent. It is already investing heavily in Africa for food and natural resources but this could lead to conflict with India with the trade route that crosses the Indian Ocean.
Within the next year the first navy pilots will begin training for aircraft carrier operations that are expected to be operational early in the next decade.
A London conference attended by defence business leaders was told that new air-to-air refuelling planes are being delivered that will double the range of the Chinese air force's increasingly modernised fighters.
The army has been substantially slimmed down into a leaner fighting force with new tanks and armoured vehicles coming off the production line.
"China is developing a modern highly manoeuvrable force able to operate anywhere as good if not better than Western armies," said Christopher Foss, editor of Jane's Armour and Artillery.
In the last 10 years China had made "dramatic progress, make no doubt about that," he warned.
But it is China's growing naval might that poses the greatest threat. By 2015 it is expected to have six Jin-class submarines capable of firing the JL2 ballistic nuclear missile that could threaten both the western and eastern American seaboards acting as deterrent to any US intervention if Taiwan or other areas erupted in conflict.
China's nuclear attack submarine force is expanding "quite considerably" with six T93 hunter killers and more than a dozen Kilo class boats.
Fast attack craft, each carrying eight anti-ship missiles, are to increase from 40 to 100 giving the navy "a considerable capability", the conference heard.
Christian Le Miere, editor of Jane's Intelligence Review, said China would fear America less if it had the threat of nuclear weapons off US waters with a "very capable military to back up diplomatic moves".
"People will keep an eye on China but there is no reason to think that conflict is inevitable," he said.
He added that the "greatest threat of violence" would come when China's military was fully revamped by 2020 and when it was "emboldened by military growth".
While there has been a "step change in capabilities" the Chinese navy is a considerable distance from US Navy which spends ten time China's budget building twice the number of vessels.
China, with an estimated defence budget of £35 billion, is currently on one of three countries developing a "fifth generation" advanced fighter called the J-XX that could be on a par with American planes although the project is highly secret.
Increasingly technology from European countries is being seen in Chinese equipment, the conference heard.
A major programme is in place to build 6,000 armoured vehicles at a cost of £7 billion that will include a "very advanced armoured package" of T99 tanks and the eight-wheeled VN1 armed with a 100mm gun, 30mm canon and 7.62mm machine gun.
As one of the "most significant vehicles" on the battlefield for the People's Liberation Army the 2,500 VN1 will be air transportable.
In recent years China has spent considerable sums on improving capability, new landing craft and special harbours. There had been a major build up of assault ships including 30 large tank landing craft that would allow long range operations.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/3096464/China-aims-for-military-might.html

lostexpectation

US announces plans to sell arms package to Taiwan
http://wiredispatch.com/news/?id=406333

arms dealers always win

conceited

God help us all :pac:

Run_to_da_hills

In Revelation 9 verse 15 to 16, the Bible prophesies that an army of 200 million soldiers will launch a war which will kill "the third part of men". Never in the history of the world, until our present generation, has there been a power on earth that could field 200 million soldiers.

However, Mao Tsetung boasted in his diary that he could field an army of 200 million soldiers. We see that this prophecy pertaining to the very last times could not ever have been fulfilled until now.

"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them". Rev 16 vs 15 toi 16

faceman

no one would win a new global conflict if nuclear weapons are being bandied about.

King Ludvig

There's apparently more soldiers in the Chinese army than there is citizens in the USA :eek:

Tenger

King Ludvig wrote: »

There's apparently more soldiers in the Chinese army than there is citizens in the USA :eek:

In a full blown conflict with the PRC the USA would not have enough munitions. The US experienced a severe restriction on cruise missile missions in 1991 and again in 2003 due to their lack of large stockpiles. Am sure at the actual frontline supplies of ammo for rifles and support weapons might have a simialar problem against the Chinese,didn't that happen in the Korean War when the Chinese crossed teh Yalu river? I realise that the Chinese have changed tactics since then.

Leadership

During my military training we were told the Chinese tactics were based on 3 waves.

1st Wave - The peasant army, armed with pitch forks these lads only had one task and that was run like mad at the enemy. There would be thousands running at you.

2nd Wave - The reservists, lightly armed with out of date weapons and even shared (like enemy at the gate). Again these would run en-mass at the enemy.

3rd wave - Regular army, by now the idea is that any enemy would have run out of ammunition and these guys would hold the new position.

I guess China has moved on and is now building an offensive army. This would put the fear of god into the Americans so I guess we prepare for a new cold war.

Grizzly 45

Before they get anywhere in world power.They have to build a viable Blue water navy to be able to tackle the US navy on equal terms.It is one thng to build the navy ,another to operate it.The US has been running Carrier battle groups for nigh on 60 years worldwide,so they have a strong learning curve as well to catch up on.Not that the Chinese are madly intent on invading anywhere bar Tibet at the moment.It is more than likely that they will implode and become a "communist" state in name only.War is bad for the old busisness,so they can own and invade just by financial power alone.

Run_to_da_hills

China is now the biggest importer of Iron Ore and recycled steel in the world. They have been responsible for the surge in steel among industry in this country over recent years. It did not take the Germans much time to build up their navy, U boats and tanks during WW2.

Grizzly 45

Mmm,true enough on both pints.But then again different times and situations.China has to import raw materials to keep it's economy going by producing cheap goods.Germany OTOH in the 30s was gearing to build up it's armed forces,not become a world trade power.[Imagine if Adolf had decided to go down that route instead.Germany would have been THE world power by now].True,the Germans did build up their armed forces in a very fast period,but again that mightnt have happened if the Westen powers hadnt been so gutless and intervened and challanged Hitler over the Versailles treaty when Germany moved back into the Alsace reigion.
Currently,it is a bit hard to build under cover massive aircraft carriers or armies without the world knowing about it.Nor is it that easy the way the world has now interlinked financially to easily go around proclaiming world domination or conquest.China is providing jobs for itself and has to somhow keep it's people occupied,lest they start thinking about more democracy .

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

So should the world have anything to worry about with this type of military growth? I know I rather not die for another 40-50 years at least

Tenger

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Before they get anywhere in world power.They have to build a viable Blue water navy to be able to tackle the US navy on equal terms............................so they have a strong learning curve as well to catch up on..................................War is bad for the old busisness,so they can own and invade just by financial power alone.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

China is now the biggest importer of Iron Ore and recycled steel in the world...............................It did not take the Germans much time to build up their navy, U boats and tanks during WW2.

This point came up in a previous China Vs USA thread. And the precedent of Nazi Germany was used. China in theory could build a sufficient (2 carriers groups with support)blue water navy now. Get the tactics and training in, then have a sudden surge of shipbuilding in the 3-5 years before they think they will need to use a larger force. In reality China only needs to project force a (relatively) short distance,so they would not need the 12 carrier groups that the US have. They want to have Taiwan and probably knock out Japan as a threat before facing the US response. They would however need efficient nuclear missile boats in operation to keep a nuclear option open and away from US/Western eyes. And this may cause them more problems.

I read a book about Genghis Khan a while back(by Jogn Man,would reccomend....stay with me here). It mentioned how the Chinese now consider him to have been the founder of a CHINESE dynasty rather than a Mongol Warlord/Emperor. Thus the current people of China have claim to all of lands rules by this emperor. The book made the point that if Russia ever lost control of parts of Siberia perhaps China could make a play for all those resources. (And yes, I have read Bear and Dragon by Tom Clancy)

lostexpectation

meanwhile back in the land of reality where its what america does that has far more affect on us....

twinytwo

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In Revelation 9 verse 15 to 16, the Bible prophesies that an army of 200 million soldiers will launch a war which will kill "the third part of men". Never in the history of the world, until our present generation, has there been a power on earth that could field 200 million soldiers.

However, Mao Tsetung boasted in his diary that he could field an army of 200 million soldiers. We see that this prophecy pertaining to the very last times could not ever have been fulfilled until now.

"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them". Rev 16 vs 15 toi 16

the next great war will be over food and water as their will eventually not be enough to go around...

mawk

I personally cant imagine that war will ever break out between china and the us. both have too much to lose. someones voice of reason will claim that second place is ok.

and if china wants to beef up its navy and go protecting its own shipping routes.. thats fine by me. pacification of the pirate riddled seas is a good thing
http://www.icc-ccs.org/extra/display.php

notice how many of these are in south east asia? and where do china's other boats go to? thats right, africa.

Tenger

twinytwo wrote: »

the next great war will be over food and water as their will eventually not be enough to go around...

Isn't this the scenario for the Battlefield 2 expansion pack?

Grizzly 45

[

quote=Bramble;57476210]This point came up in a previous China Vs USA thread. And the precedent of Nazi Germany was used. China in theory could build a sufficient (2 carriers groups with support)blue water navy now.

Theory is one thing...practibility is another..First reason is WHY would they???

Get the tactics and training in

,
Hummm versus sixty odd years of the US running carrier battle groups in peace and war.With these kind of situations reguarly war gamed in reality and computor???

.

In reality China only needs to project force a (relatively) short distance,so they would not need the 12 carrier groups that the US have. They want to have Taiwan

Again they have to get boots on the ground in Taiwan.That means shipping troops and materialby ship as they dont have airlift capability for their size to Taiwan.250 sea miles appx.That would leave them at the mercy of the US Sub fleet,especially the Sea Wolf class boats.Question is would the US risk an est 2 or 3 carrier battle group engagement to slow down the invasion???

and probably knock out Japan as a threat before facing the US response

.
For some reason the Chinese are still scared of the Japanese..After being over in China,it is quite scary as to how much influence Japan has in Chinese day to day life.Do you know according to Chinese schoolbooks[printed in Japan] We didnt win WW2!!!No words of Hiroshma,Nagasaki or Pearl harbour...:eek::eek:.Yet China if it wanted could walk over Japan in the morning,and the Chinese also consider them ignorant sods.A feeling responded by the Japanese.If it kicks off it will be with those two.

I read a book about Genghis Khan a while back(by Jogn Man,would reccomend....stay with me here). It mentioned how the Chinese now consider him to have been the founder of a CHINESE dynasty rather than a Mongol Warlord/Emperor. Thus the current people of China have claim to all of lands rules by this emperor. The book made the point that if Russia ever lost control of parts of Siberia perhaps China could make a play for all those resources. (And yes, I have read Bear and Dragon by Tom Clancy

Yup,China has always laid claim to Mongolia,and parts of Siberia.Reason why Ivan had somthing like 30 divisions facing China in the Cold War,and a piddling 14 facing the West in Europe[figures on this might be wrong].Also the reason russia still has some key divisions down there.Although,I reckon if China did make a claim for it Moscow will just turn that area into radioactive glass.

mental - they will have lots of cannon fodder

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055302667

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thirdfox

*Putting on my ranting nationalistic hat*
Yes yes, big bad China will build up its military and go around conquering and colonising like it did in the last few centuries...oh wait that was the Europeans. When the Chinese naval expedition "discovered" Africa they turned around and went home. I should probably add in a "foreign devil" slur in there somewhere...
*taking off my ranting nationalistic hat*

There is an element of truth in that ranting nationalist - what's wrong with China scaling down its military and investing in more modern technology? Why can't they/we have planes that aren't made during the cold war? Compactisation a la the US method is the modern way to project force in regional conflicts. Just like the cavalry charge, trench warfare etc. are outdated having a 1 million full time army isn't what China needs for modern times.

I suppose the reaction is that people here don't trust China (or specifically the Chinese government). Funnily enough - in Newsweek (hardly a mouthpiece for the CCCP) they found that the people of China do believe the government is heading in the right direction (improving economics, with a promise of political development too (at some stage)).

For me - I'm more concerned that the money spent on potential carrier fleets etc. could be better spent on further improving the lives of people living in the west...but hey, how dare the Chinese spend 1/10th what the Americans spend on defense?
From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
1 United States 711,000,000,000
European Union 311,920,000,000
2 France 65,392,432,500
3 United Kingdom 59,903,400,000
4 China 58,800,000,000

btw Ireland is placed number 62 - 1.3 billion - between Libya and Serbia.

the_syco

Thirdfox wrote: »

how dare the Chinese spend 1/10th what the Americans spend on defense?

Do they pay more than a 10th the wage, though?

Thirdfox

I doubt it... then again the dollar is worth 8x more than the yuan (euro is worth 11x) so really you can live like a king over there for a modest wage here...