Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
40K people, including nationalized immigrants and non-resident aliens on the dole
Options
Comments
-
Yes, I think it's time for us to at least temporarily restrict access to people from the Eastern European countries, at least until we've gotten through the worst of the recession. They might not be happy about it in Europe but I'm sure alot of people will understand why we need to make this decision.
But we do, we restrict workers from Bulgaria and Romania to a work permit scheme. With regard to the other accession countries from 2004 the majority of the EU now allow them unrestricted access to their labour markets as well. That means they can now move from Ireland (which they are doing now!) to most other EU countries.They are there but it would help us if those jobs went to people already on the dole, rather than to new people entering the country. The fewer people there are on the dole, the less money we'll have to spend supporting them.
It would also help if the hard core of people on the dole wanted to work which clearly they don't. There is also the reality of people holding out for a job that may not come along. People will have to get realistic and reduce their initial job targets and go where the work is.Nothing more than what other European countries are doing. Temporarily restrict access to the Eastern European countries and take a much tougher line on illegal immigration. I think it might be worth reconsidering Leo Veradcar's proposal as well to pay immigrants on the dole to return home.
We are doing what the majority of EU countries are doing restricting workers from Bulgaria and Romania to work permits.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3513889.stm
A large number other EU countries are now allowing people from the 2004 treaty nations to work unhindered. Those like Germany who have restrictions issued 500,000 work permits between 2004 and 2006 for citizens from these new countries so I think you will find that Europe is actually taking the brunt of the migrant workers. And as these markets open up fully the majority of workers will be going there and not here so you will have a natural erosion of labour (maybe to our detriment).
As for Leo's idea it is reactionary and I would only support it if we can get all spongers, especially the irish ones to be included in the program with a minumum requirement of not being able to return to Ireland for at least 10 years.Nobody is saying that the immigrants are to blame for the recession or that things wouldn't be bad even if we didn't have as many people in the country. The point people are making is that in a time of recession and job shortage, it doesn't make sense for us to continue to allow tens of thousands of people a year to enter our country and to take jobs that should be going to unemployed people in this country. You can use the standard "Takin our jobs" to try to brush that aside as typical ignorant bigotry but there does come a point where these things stop sounding funny and where the reality is painfully close to the caricature.
You see my counter argument is the unemployed in this country are just going to have to compete for jobs, the Irish did it in England, the US and in Europe we should be able to do it in Ireland. You should have the advantage you are native English speakers. You may have to take a job that you feel is "beneath" you but that's the reality of the situation. The problem is I fear we have gotten lazy and we have forgotten how to work hard. Again I am a bit older than the majority of posters on this forum and I have gone through tough times.
You will also find as things get tough here a lot of the workers from other EU countries will move where the jobs are. I expect to see an awful lot of construction workers on the way to London to help construction for the 2012 Olympics.0 -
Sure about that?Originally Posted by djpbarry
Besides, nobody can claim social welfare in this country without making a minimum number of PRSI contributions.
In order to qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit, you must pay Class A, H or P PRSI contributions. Class A is the one paid by most private sector employees. Class H is paid by soldiers, reservists and temporary army nurses, who do not qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit until they have left the army.
you must have 52 weeks PRSI paid since starting work and
you must have 39 weeks PRSI paid or credited in the Relevant Tax Year or
you must have 26 weeks PRSI paid in the Relevant Tax Year and
you must have 26 weeks PRSI paid in the Tax Year prior to the Relevant Tax Year
Source: citizensinformation.ie0 -
See above.Sure about that?
Tell you what, why don't you head down to your nearest dole queue and see how many takers there are for the job in the local Spar. Let me know how you get on.They are there but it would help us if those jobs went to people already on the dole, rather than to new people entering the country.
Ironically, without the level of immigration we have had over the last number of years, it is quite possible that we would not be experiencing a recession now, because it is very unlikely that we would have experienced the same high levels of economic growth.Nobody is saying that the immigrants are to blame for the recession or that things wouldn't be bad even if we didn't have as many people in the country.
Absolutely; a little competition in the workforce is no bad thing. It gives people an incentive to better themselves, which benefits everyone in the long run. I seem to remember this point being emphasised on Questions & Answers the other night.You see my counter argument is the unemployed in this country are just going to have to compete for jobs...0 -
I personally have apain in my hole listening to people say irish people wont do menial jobs especially in construction.
Iworked in construction in Dublin from 2001 to 2007 and in that time there was a huge boom.
Most foreign workers on irish building sites were simply getting paid into the hand not paying tax.The reason foreign guys were employed in mass was you could treat them like slaves get them working saturdays and overtime for a flat rate.
Big companys are the ones to blame i dont blame the workers there only trying to make a better life for themselves but they are really undermining irish workers by working in bad conditions as well.
Ask yourself how easy is it sign on once a month and spend 10 minutes collecting your dole a week? esp if you off the radar and getting paid into the hand
i am sure many irish are at it to in lots of different jobs too.0 -
I personally have apain in my hole listening to people say irish people wont do menial jobs especially in construction.
Iworked in construction in Dublin from 2001 to 2007 and in that time there was a huge boom.
I was refering more to jobs in shops, general cleaning jobs etc.Most foreign workers on irish building sites were simply getting paid into the hand not paying tax.The reason foreign guys were employed in mass was you could treat them like slaves get them working saturdays and overtime for a flat rate.
So I reckon you have reported their employers to the Revenue with regard to the tax evasion and to Health & Safety with regard to the working like slaves bit. If you haven't then tbh I have no sympathy from you or anyone else who gives out like this.
If you see wrongdoing of this type report it.Big companys are the ones to blame i dont blame the workers there only trying to make a better life for themselves but they are really undermining irish workers by working in bad conditions as well.
I agree with you 100%, but if you don't report them then nothing will be sorted. The laws are already in place to sort out this type of abuse.Ask yourself how easy is it sign on once a month and spend 10 minutes collecting your dole a week? esp if you off the radar and getting paid into the hand
i am sure many irish are at it to in lots of different jobs too.
Again if you know its happening report the employers who are doing it.
Did you report any of the incidents of under the counter payments that you are alleging here?0 -
Advertisement
-
oscarBravo wrote:Why should they?
Because it will help to reduce unemployment. The fewer people on the dole, the less of our taxes we'll need to spend supporting those people. The more people we have entering the country and looking for jobs, the more difficult it will be for people on the dole to get back into employment. I would thought that would have been obvious.gandalf wrote:But we do, we restrict workers from Bulgaria and Romania to a work permit scheme.
So we just need to extend that to the other Eastern European countries as well.gandalf wrote:With regard to the other accession countries from 2004 the majority of the EU now allow them unrestricted access to their labour markets as well.
I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was only Ireland, Britain and Sweden who had allowed unrestricted access. Are you sure they have allowed completely unrestricted access like Ireland?gandalf wrote:That means they can now move from Ireland (which they are doing now!) to most other EU countries.
Is there any evidence that this is happening?gandalf wrote:It would also help if the hard core of people on the dole wanted to work which clearly they don't.
So there was a massive increase in the dole queues over the last few months because tens of thousands of people in this country suddenly became lazy and decided they don't want to work anymore?gandalf wrote:We are doing what the majority of EU countries are doing restricting workers from Bulgaria and Romania to work permits.
And we need to do the same with those other Eastern European countries as well. Most of the immigrants are coming from those other eastern European countries so they're the people we'll need to restrict.gandalf wrote:A large number other EU countries are now allowing people from the 2004 treaty nations to work unhindered.
I would be surprised if that's true. I'm sure they have relaxed some of the restrictions but I don't think they have granted the same kind of unrestricted access people from those those countries that our government granted.gandalf wrote:You see my counter argument is the unemployed in this country are just going to have to compete for jobs, the Irish did it in England, the US and in Europe we should be able to do it in Ireland.
But why make it more difficult for them than it need to be? You still haven't given any reason why we shouldn't restrict immigration. Why is it better in your opinion for us to continue taking in this number of people while we have so many people out of work?0 -
djpbarry wrote:Tell you what, why don't you head down to your nearest dole queue and see how many takers there are for the job in the local Spar. Let me know how you get on.
I went down and most of the lazy Irish couldn't be bothered working in a job they considered beneath them. They just want to get their money and get back under the duvet. There were a lot of hard-working Polish who seemed interested though but unfortunately when they tried to apply for the job they found that it had already been taken by a recent arrival.djpbarry wrote:Ironically, without the level of immigration we have had over the last number of years, it is quite possible that we would not be experiencing a recession now, because it is very unlikely that we would have experienced the same high levels of economic growth.
I agree completely. I couldn't have said it better myself.0 -
dante18 I linked to a BBC article which gives all the details?
18 hmmmmm AH?0 -
When I employ someone, I don't care whether they're fresh off the dole or fresh off the boat, as long as they're the right person for the job. Immigration will only keep people on the dole if the immigrants are better candidates for jobs than people on the dole.Because it will help to reduce unemployment. The fewer people on the dole, the less of our taxes we'll need to spend supporting those people. The more people we have entering the country and looking for jobs, the more difficult it will be for people on the dole to get back into employment. I would thought that would have been obvious.0 -
gandalf wrote:dante18 I linked to a BBC article which gives all the details?
And that gives the list of countries without restrictions on the Eastern Europeans. You haven't given a reason why it's better for us to continue taking in this number of immigrants each year though. Why do you think it's not a good idea for us to try to reduce the number of people entering the country at a time when we have over 200 thousand people out of work?gandalf wrote:18 hmmmmm AH?
And those just happen to be the initials of the greatest Austrian of all time. What a coincidence!
I picked the 18 at random. I regretted it at the time, thinking that people would think I was only 18 years old. I hadn't considered the neo-nazi significance of the number.oscarBravo wrote:When I employ someone, I don't care whether they're fresh off the dole or fresh off the boat, as long as they're the right person for the job. Immigration will only keep people on the dole if the immigrants are better candidates for jobs than people on the dole.
There will always be people in the world better qualified to do a job than people on the dole in Ireland. Does that mean we should open our labour market to the Chinese and the Indians?
There are huge numbers of people on the dole in this country who are more than qualified for the low-skilled jobs available. It would save us money to ease the competition for those jobs and to let them get back into employment. Things are much more difficult for them now that they have to compete with tens of thousands of new arrivals.0 -
Advertisement
-
Net emigration forecast for next year.Is there any evidence that this is happening?
We're not "continuing taking in this number of people", although I don't know what "this number" is. Immigration is declining, emigration is rising.Why is it better in your opinion for us to continue taking in this number of people while we have so many people out of work?
Not to worry; plenty more where that came from.There were a lot of hard-working Polish who seemed interested though but unfortunately when they tried to apply for the job they found that it had already been taken by a recent arrival.
I think you misunderstood my point completely.I agree completely. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Why then do you suppose they don't take those jobs?There are huge numbers of people on the dole in this country who are more than qualified for the low-skilled jobs available.0 -
-
djpbarry wrote:We're not "continuing taking in this number of people", although I don't know what "this number" is.
Did you not read that DSFA page that was linked to near the start of the thread (this one). Over 170 thousand PPS numbers have been issued so far this year. I think that's even higher than last year and we still haven't reached the end of 2008.djpbarry wrote:Immigration is declining
Is it? Over 170 thousand PPS numbers issued so far this year. Is that lower than the number issued last year?djpbarry wrote:Not to worry; plenty more where that came from.
I know there are. That's why I think we should act now before the problem gets worse.djpbarry wrote:I think you misunderstood my point completely.
I understood perfectly what your point was and I agree completely with it. Unless you were trying to argue that it's a good thing that we're in the current recession, in which case I did misunderstand your point.djpbarry wrote:Why then do you suppose they don't take those jobs?
How do you know they aren't taking them?sovtek wrote:Should the tens of thousands of fleeing Irish mentioned in djpbarry's article also be told to stay where they are by the country of their choosen destination?
Yes, each country should do what it believes to be in it's own national interest.0 -
-
oscarBravo wrote: »When I employ someone, I don't care whether they're fresh off the dole or fresh off the boat, as long as they're the right person for the job. Immigration will only keep people on the dole if the immigrants are better candidates for jobs than people on the dole.
Business people don't look at whats good for the state or even the overall economy, they look at whats good for them and their profits.
One issue I have with people employing Immigrant work seekers over Irish looking for work is the Irish are much more likely to spend their money in this state, i.e. not send it home or save it for when they return home.
Employing immigrants and giving them disposal income which won't be spent in this country while leaving Irish workers on social welfare will have a double negative effect on our economy. If the workers aren't spending their disposal income here it will have a negative effect on the economy, however SME's just aren't seeing the big picture imo0 -
TheDude2008 wrote: »And here is the link for the amount of immigrants that have applied for pps numbers so far this year...
Just because you apply for a PPS number doesn't mean you get the dole. You need a PPS number to open a bank account.0 -
-
And that gives the list of countries without restrictions on the Eastern Europeans. You haven't given a reason why it's better for us to continue taking in this number of immigrants each year though. Why do you think it's not a good idea for us to try to reduce the number of people entering the country at a time when we have over 200 thousand people out of work?
Its quite simple really, if I was "Boris" from one of the Eastern EU nations I would prefer to work on the continent where I am within a relatively short bus ride/car journey home than on a god forsaken island further away.
From the linked Irish Times article quoted by djpbarry they are talking about emigration being higher, again you will find the majority of those are probably non nationals and probably EU citizens leaving Ireland to go home or to where jobs are available within the Union. The Irish leaving to work elsewhere can do so because they are citizens of the EU.
Remember Germany still have to lift restrictions and when that happens you can kiss most of the Polish workers goodbye.There will always be people in the world better qualified to do a job than people on the dole in Ireland. Does that mean we should open our labour market to the Chinese and the Indians?
I think the initial issue is with the Eastern Europeans who make it most of the EU citizens who have migrated here. No one mentioned opening up to the Chinese and Indians? Going sideways?There are huge numbers of people on the dole in this country who are more than qualified for the low-skilled jobs available. It would save us money to ease the competition for those jobs and to let them get back into employment. Things are much more difficult for them now that they have to compete with tens of thousands of new arrivals.
Hang on, having competition saves money not the other way around that's protectionism and if that scenario comes in then the rest of us pay more for goods and services. Compete or die!0 -
The number of PPS numbers issued in a given time period is not the same as net immigration over that period; almost 63,000 of those 174,000 PPS numbers were issued to Irish nationals. But anyway, the number of PPS numbers being issued to citizens of the 2004 accession states has been declining since the beginning of 2007. Inward migration totalled 109,500 in 2007; it is expected that this will be down by at least 30% this year, with net emigration of 20,000 forecast for next year.Is it? Over 170 thousand PPS numbers issued so far this year. Is that lower than the number issued last year?
http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20080623114553/QEC2008Sum.pdf
I was referring to jobs, not foreigners. In fact, the sandwich shop where I just bought my lunch has been advertising a vacancy for at least 2 weeks now.I know there are. That's why I think we should act now before the problem gets worse.
Yes, you did. Immigrants played a big part in fuelling the massive economic growth we had in recent times, but now that we've hit tougher times, you want them all to **** off back where they came from?I understood perfectly what your point was and I agree completely with it. Unless you were trying to argue that it's a good thing that we're in the current recession, in which case I did misunderstand your point.
See above.How do you know they aren't taking them?
Which, by extension, is generally good for the economy.Business people don't look at whats good for the state or even the overall economy, they look at whats good for them and their profits.
Yeah, you're right. Immigrants don't buy food, pay rent, pay tax or anything like that. Every penny they earn is hoarded under a mattress.One issue I have with people employing Immigrant work seekers over Irish looking for work is the Irish are much more likely to spend their money in this state, i.e. not send it home or save it for when they return home.0 -
Yes, it is. The very website that the original poster uses will show you that the immigration level is down and that the rate of increase in nationals on live register is higher than that of non-nationals.Is it? Over 170 thousand PPS numbers issued so far this year. Is that lower than the number issued last year?
Like I said, get the bloodsuckers (national and non-national) to quit cheating the system and/or work. Shouldnt matter where they're from. And nationals are actually easier to trace.0 -
Advertisement
-
-
djpbarry wrote:Inward migration totalled 109,500 in 2007; it is expected that this will be down by at least 30% this year,
Do you mean gross inward migration will be down 30% or net inward migration will be down by 30% compared to last year? If you're using that 109,500 figure then that refers to gross inward immigration. If those figures from the DSFA are right, the numbers this year have already exceeded last years figures. When you subtract the 63,000 who are Irish, that leaves 110,000 non-nationals arriving here this year. It seems immigration is higher this year than it was last year.JWAD wrote:Yes, it is. The very website that the original poster uses will show you that the immigration level is down
Where does it show that the numbers are down on last years? The total this year for non-nationals getting PPS numbers is around 110,000. Are you saying that figure is lower than last year's figure?0 -
We are in the EU so any person who comes to work here is entitled to benefits and rightly so IMO.
This is one of only three countries in Europe where that is the position. Every othr country has a derogation from free movement of workers. On the other hand you have to have 2 years stamps to get the dole if you're an Eastern European.0 -
DJPBarry you read my mind. Immigrants have been great! They've really helped control wages and build houses (Thank you immigrants) !!!Yes, you did. Immigrants played a big part in fuelling the massive economic growth we had in recent times, but now that we've hit tougher times, you want them all to **** off back where they came from?
Thanks for controlling wages immigrants, thanks for doing the jobs we didn't want (or not for the wages ye'd all do them for) , thanks for being so surly and so suspicious. YAY !!!
Now plese do what DJPBarry said.0 -
From the ESRI publication I linked to: gross inward migration for 2008 is expected to be 30% lower than 2007. Net inward migration for 2008 is expected to be 31,000, down from 67,300 in 2007. Net outward migration of 20,000 is forecast for 2009.Do you mean gross inward migration will be down 30% or net inward migration will be down by 30% compared to last year?
More on this here:
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/population/current/popmig.pdf
Nonsense (see above). You are equating the number of PPS numbers issued in a particular period of time with the number of immigrants entering the country in the same period, which is totally inaccurate.It seems immigration is higher this year than it was last year.0 -
And that gives the list of countries without restrictions on the Eastern Europeans. You haven't given a reason why it's better for us to continue taking in this number of immigrants each year though. Why do you think it's not a good idea for us to try to reduce the number of people entering the country at a time when we have over 200 thousand people out of work?
That is not an option. derogation was available as far as granting the right to work to the NICE treaty accession states however our government chose not to exercise this derogation.
There were two reasons for this most importantly the government wanted to ensure that as big a slice of the housebuilding boom went to the property developer as possible and allowing an essentially limitless supply of skilled labour had that effect.
Secondly the government felt the need to mend fences with the Eastern Europeans after NICE 1. One of the reasons that such a large number of people have come to Ireland from New Europe (other than the amazing attractions of this country) is that most of Old Europe has been closed to them.0 -
-
mountainyman wrote: »This is one of only three countries in Europe where that is the position. Every othr country has a derogation from free movement of workers. On the other hand you have to have 2 years stamps to get the dole if you're an Eastern European.
We are a generous country perhaps, maybe in time other countries may follow our example or perhaps the powers that be in Government buildings did not think it through believing stupidly that the boom was here to stay. I will plumb for the latter. I do not begrudge anybody from getting the dole no matter who they are if they are legally entitled and thats the way it should be. Like it or not planning and organization is not and never has been one of Ireland's s strong attributes IMO.0 -
Where does it show that the numbers are down on last years? The total this year for non-nationals getting PPS numbers is around 110,000. Are you saying that figure is lower than last year's figure?
Try using the website I mentioned. I said it was there in the website, not on the webpage :rolleyes:
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/population/current/popmig.pdf0 -
Advertisement
-
Nonsense (see above). You are equating the number of PPS numbers issued in a particular period of time with the number of immigrants entering the country in the same period, which is totally inaccurate.
Yes and if they're registering, these people from Europe, the States, Australia, New Zealand, Sth Africa, Asia etc surely thats a good thing?
I wish some people would just come out with it and say they just don't like "foreigners".0
Advertisement