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40K people, including nationalized immigrants and non-resident aliens on the dole
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Rubbish, this was used few years ago to scare the population. It didn't happen then. It will not happen in the future.There's no option to not "take in" we are in the EU, we have no choice to refuse other EU citizens coming here. Ireland has one of the best doles in Europe, I would actually think that more and more unemployed people will come here as the doles alot better than most countries.0 -
In order to qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit, you must pay Class A, H or P PRSI contributions. Class A is the one paid by most private sector employees. Class H is paid by soldiers, reservists and temporary army nurses, who do not qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit until they have left the army.
you must have 52 weeks PRSI paid since starting work and
you must have 39 weeks PRSI paid or credited in the Relevant Tax Year or
you must have 26 weeks PRSI paid in the Relevant Tax Year and
you must have 26 weeks PRSI paid in the Tax Year prior to the Relevant Tax Year
Source: citizensinformation.ie
So Jobseeker's Allowance doesn't count as "Social Welfare" in your opinion?:rolleyes:0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »When I employ someone, I don't care whether they're fresh off the dole or fresh off the boat, as long as they're the right person for the job. Immigration will only keep people on the dole if the immigrants are better candidates for jobs than people on the dole.
So it will keep people on the dole if an immigrant is a better candidate?
MM0 -
I don't begrudge people the dole because they have to have worked and paid tax for 2 years to qualify.perhaps the powers that be in Government buildings did not think it through believing stupidly that the boom was here to stay. I will plumb for the latter. I do not begrudge anybody from getting the dole no matter who they are if they are legally entitled and thats the way it should be. Like it or not planning and organization is not and never has been one of Ireland's s strong attributes IMO.
The policy was not a mistake. Unlimited immigration is a great way to put manners on the working class.0 -
In the hypothetical situation where it's a choice between someone on the dole and an immigrant, then my employing an immigrant could be said to be keeping someone else on the dole.mountainyman wrote: »So it will keep people on the dole if an immigrant is a better candidate?
As a company director, I have a legal duty of care to the company; not to the dole queue.0 -
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mountainyman wrote: »The policy was not a mistake. Unlimited immigration is a great way to put manners on the working class.
Where is this unique country located that has unlimited immigration?0 -
It shouldn't matter whether or not, the person is an immigrant or a non-immigrant. If it did matter then discrimination is taking place and then it becomes a legal matter. So long as this hypothetical position is advertised fairly and the candidate ticks all the boxes required then the applicant's nationality is irrelevant.mountainyman wrote: »So it will keep people on the dole if an immigrant is a better candidate?0 -
djpbarry wrote:From the ESRI publication I linked to: gross inward migration for 2008 is expected to be 30% lower than 2007. Net inward migration for 2008 is expected to be 31,000, down from 67,300 in 2007. Net outward migration of 20,000 is forecast for 2009.
More on this here:
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublicatio...ent/popmig.pdfJWAD wrote:Try using the website I mentioned. I said it was there in the website, not on the webpage
If the numbers are falling then I think that's good news. I'd still be interested to know why there are so many PPS numbers being issued to non-nationals though. Do you know why over 100,000 PPS numbers have been issued so far this year to foreigners?
The figure of 20,000 forecast to leave next year, will those not include a large number of Irish people forced to move because they can't find work in this country?oscarBravo wrote:In the hypothetical situation where it's a choice between someone on the dole and an immigrant, then my employing an immigrant could be said to be keeping someone else on the dole.
As a company director, I have a legal duty of care to the company; not to the dole queue.
If you can't find a suitably qualified candidate from among the available pool of labour in this country then you can apply for a work-permit for a qualified candidate from outside the country. As taxpayers with no stake in your company you can't expect us to afford you the luxury of having the best of everything.
A huge amount of our tax revenue will be going towards supporting people on the dole and so our interest is in reducing those dole queues as much as possible. Allowing huge numbers of people to enter the labour market when there are already over 200 thousand people on the dole just doesn't seem like a sensible thing to be doing.0 -
It shouldn't matter whether or not, the person is an immigrant or a non-immigrant. If it did matter then discrimination is taking place and then it becomes a legal matter. So long as this hypothetical position is advertised fairly and the candidate ticks all the boxes required then the applicant's nationality is irrelevant.
Exactly, JWAD in real life business a company will hire the best candidate for the job in the company's best interest no matter where he/she comes from if the qualifications are right. If its a salary thing, then if a foreign worker will work for a cheaper rate, provided its at or above the minimum wage of course, then this too could be a factor in hiring non national people. Business is business.
This notion that one should employ Irish people only over non nationals is just plain naive and illogical. For years we were told buy Irish in the shops but Irish goods were never at a competitive price but overpriced as many still are, our patriotism was being exploited.I have sourced many an item from England at less than half the price of Ireland. The more competition the better IMO and the same applies in the workforce as it keeps the dynamic going not to sit back and just expect.0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »In the hypothetical situation where it's a choice between someone on the dole and an immigrant, then my employing an immigrant could be said to be keeping someone else on the dole.
As a company director, I have a legal duty of care to the company; not to the dole queue.
The employer doesn't pay the true cost of employing an immigrant,
It doesn't pay for the 2000 English Language support teachers currently employed in schools, it doesn't pay for the rent allowance a person on minimum wage may receive, it doesn't pay for the social problems we may have in the future,
All in all a fair comment, however, immigration has been a good source of cheap labour,0 -
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Would you rather they worked black and undeclared? My better half (who is Norwegian) got her PPS number organised for moving here 3 yrs ago. Should she not have bothered in the first place or maybe should have p*ssed off elsewhere instead? Maybe wait until a 'national' got the jobs she was thinking of going for?If the numbers are falling then I think that's good news. I'd still be interested to know why there are so many PPS numbers being issued to non-nationals though. Do you know why over 100,000 PPS numbers have been issued so far this year to foreigners?
So you mean discriminate. No equality of application procedures. One for 'us' and one for 'them'.If you can't find a suitably qualified candidate from among the available pool of labour in this country then you can apply for a work-permit for a qualified candidate from outside the country. As taxpayers with no stake in your company you can't expect us to afford you the luxury of having the best of everything0 -
Deleted User wrote: »The employer doesn't pay the true cost of employing an immigrant,
This is true and across the board really...ie employers don't pay the true cost of most things.It doesn't pay for the 2000 English Language support teachers currently employed in schools, it doesn't pay for the rent allowance a person on minimum wage may receive, it doesn't pay for the social problems we may have in the future,
I'm not saying you don't but I just wanted to make sure you realize that us immigrants pay for this stuff and much more too.
Its a fact that immigrants pay more than they take.All in all a fair comment, however, immigration has been a good source of cheap labour,
Yes it has...on an international level. It's also been a huge source of tax revenue and wealth creation benefitting native and immigrant alike. It's also helped to drag Ireland (sometimes kicking and screaming) into the 21st Century.0 -
JWAD wrote:My better half (who is Norwegian) got her PPS number organised for moving here 3 yrs ago. Should she not have bothered in the first place or maybe should have p*ssed off elsewhere instead? Maybe wait until a 'national' got the jobs she was thinking of going for?
We're in the middle of a recession. We have over 200 thousand people on the dole. That number will probably increase by a lot more over the coming months.
Can you honestly not see why would it make sense for us to try to reduce the number of people entering the country and competing for the available jobs in this country with people on the dole in this country?JWAD wrote:So you mean discriminate. No equality of application procedures. One for 'us' and one for 'them'.
I don't mean discriminate. If someone is in this country legally and if they possess a PPS number then they should not be discriminated against on any grounds other than qualification for the job.
I think it's a mistake that we allow so many foreigners to enter the country and work here though and that's why I want us to see a significant reduction in the numbers coming in. Other European countries have a fraction of the number of immigrants that we're taking in and they will be able to deal much more effectively with any unemployment that results from a recession in their countries.0 -
I see. So people should be quizzed on their spending habits before they are offered a job? Should credit card statements be made available to prospective employers on demand?Read my post again, I said "Disposal income"
I’ve no idea what you’re on about?So Jobseeker's Allowance doesn't count as "Social Welfare" in your opinion?
I think sovtek has already addressed this, but I don’t know of any country in the world that has “unlimited immigration”.mountainyman wrote: »Unlimited immigration is a great way to put manners on the working class.
I don’t know; kids turning 16?I'd still be interested to know why there are so many PPS numbers being issued to non-nationals though.
I don’t care; the point is net emigration is not a good thing. By the way, that figure has today been revised upwards by the ESRI to 30,000.The figure of 20,000 forecast to leave next year, will those not include a large number of Irish people forced to move because they can't find work in this country?
Don’t worry; the labour force will actually be reduced in size next year.Allowing huge numbers of people to enter the labour market when there are already over 200 thousand people on the dole just doesn't seem like a sensible thing to be doing.
All these immigrants with their PPS numbers; they’re paying tax, right?Deleted User wrote: »It doesn't pay for the 2000 English Language support teachers currently employed in schools, it doesn't pay for the rent allowance a person on minimum wage may receive, it doesn't pay for the social problems we may have in the future…
I don’t know how many times I’ve said this already on this thread (and others), but we don’t have to do anything to reduce the number of people migrating to Ireland; our shambolic economy will do that for us. Migration is largely self-regulating – people are far less likely to move to Ireland if they cannot get a job here.Can you honestly not see why would it make sense for us to try to reduce the number of people entering the country and competing for the available jobs in this country with people on the dole in this country?
Emigration. Net. Year. Next.I think it's a mistake that we allow so many foreigners to enter the country and work here though and that's why I want us to see a significant reduction in the numbers coming in.
Which countries are these?Other European countries have a fraction of the number of immigrants that we're taking in…
Why? By the way, our current unemployment level is similar to the EU average of 7%.…and they will be able to deal much more effectively with any unemployment that results from a recession in their countries.0 -
Yes and non-national totals on the live register decrease and overall immigration continues to decrease.We're in the middle of a recession. We have over 200 thousand people on the dole. That number will probably increase by a lot more over the coming months
No poll can prove that immigration causes unemployment increase. They do not list circumstance or take into account employment mobility either. The problematic fraction of unemployed are those who do not wish to be employed or prefer to work black while claiming benefit. Nationals and non-nationals comprise this figure and they are the main destination for tax bucks. Not this picture-imperfect 'immigrant' some folk here object to.Can you honestly not see why would it make sense for us to try to reduce the number of people entering the country and competing for the available jobs in this country with people on the dole in this country?
Good.I don't mean discriminate. If someone is in this country legally and if they possess a PPS number then they should not be discriminated against on any grounds other than qualification for the job
Do specify. Which countries exactly? How will these countries you refer to "deal with" unemployment in a much better way than here?I think it's a mistake that we allow so many foreigners to enter the country and work here though and that's why I want us to see a significant reduction in the numbers coming in. Other European countries have a fraction of the number of immigrants that we're taking in and they will be able to deal much more effectively with any unemployment that results from a recession in their countries.0 -
djpbarry wrote:I don’t care;
I do care. If I lose my job and I find myself on the dole next year I would rather not have to leave the country to find work.djpbarry wrote:the point is net emigration is not a good thing.
It's a good thing if unemployment is high and if the people emigrating are creating vacancies that can be filled by people on the dole.djpbarry wrote:By the way, that figure has today been revised upwards by the ESRI to 30,000.
The ESRI have also predicted that unemployment could reach 8% next year.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1007/economy1.htmldjpbarry wrote:Don’t worry; the labour force will actually be reduced in size next year.
The labour force might be reduced in size but what about the size of the dole queues? The ESRI are predicting that unemployment could reach 8% next year. That means we'll have at least an extra 60,000 people on the dole queues next year. If half of those people emigrate, we'll still have an extra 30,000 people that we'll need to support and who will need to be able to find jobs again.djpbarry wrote:I don’t know how many times I’ve said this already on this thread (and others), but we don’t have to do anything to reduce the number of people migrating to Ireland; our shambolic economy will do that for us.
But it's not doing it for us. We're in a recession now and we're still seeing huge numbers of people entering the country. We'll still have huge numbers of people entering the country next year. Even if more people are expected to leave than are expected to enter it, the difference won't be enough to make up for the loss of jobs and the increase in the dole queues. We'll still be in a much better position if we reduce immigration and let the vacancies in the jobs market be filled by unemployed people in this country. Not only will it benefit unemployed people but it will also benefit the taxpayer as well because less money will need to be spend supporting those people on the dole.djpbarry wrote:Migration is largely self-regulating – people are far less likely to move to Ireland if they cannot get a job here.
But they can always get a job here. That's the problem, they can compete with people in this country for any available job that comes on the market.djpbarry wrote:Emigration. Net. Year. Next.
Immigration. Net. Year. This one.djpbarry wrote:Which countries are these?
List all the European countries you can think of and then exclude Spain from that list. Then type in the words "Demographics of" followed by each country name into wikipedia. Compare the per capita net immigration results for each country with Ireland's and you'll see what I'm talking about.djpbarry wrote:Why?
Because people on the dole will find it easier to get back into employment.djpbarry wrote:By the way, our current unemployment level is similar to the EU average of 7%.
The ESRI have predicted that it will rise to 8% next year.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1007/economy1.html0 -
JWAD wrote:Yes and non-national totals on the live register decrease
I wasn't aware that the non-national totals on the live register was decreasing. Do you have a source for that?JWAD wrote:No poll can prove that immigration causes unemployment increase.
It doesn't cause unemployment increase but it does make it more difficult for people on the dole to get back into employment and in that sense it doesn't help the economy in a time of recession.JWAD wrote:Do specify. Which countries exactly?
All of them, except Spain.JWAD wrote:How will these countries you refer to "deal with" unemployment in a much better way than here?
Any job vacancies that arise have a better chance of being filled by an unemployed person on the dole in those countries than they will in Ireland. In this country unemployed people will have to compete with tens of thousands of immigrants for jobs.0 -
Yawn, we are in recession people will stop coming because there are no jobs. Employment markets in the rest of the EU are opening up, they are going to go there before they come to us as they are nearer to home. You have to be employed in Ireland paying PRSI and Tax for 2 years before you get any employment assistance, if there are no jobs you can't get that another reason not to come.
Somehow your dramatic tidal wave has turning into a mere ripple on the pond.0 -
gandalf wrote:Yawn, we are in recession people will stop coming because there are no jobs. Employment markets in the rest of the EU are opening up, they are going to go there before they come to us as they are nearer to home. You have to be employed in Ireland paying PRSI and Tax for 2 years before you get any employment assistance, if there are no jobs you can't get that another reason not to come.
We'll just have to wait and see how it works out in the long-term. It doesn't make any difference to me whether the fall in immigration occurs naturally by itself or if it's as a result of the government restricting it. The important thing is that it falls significantly enough to ease the competition on jobs and to make it easier for unemployed people to get back into employment.
In the short-term I think we can expect to see more immigrants entering the country than the economy needs and so I think it is time for the government to act. I would expect them to do something on this within the next few months.
Would you agree with me that a fall in immigration would be a good thing for the economy in the present economic climate?0 -
Would you agree with me that a fall in immigration would be a good thing for the economy in the present economic climate?
No actually I don't, I believe the influx of hard workers from overseas has enriched the country no end. There are still jobs out there that need to be filled as you can see just walking around Dublin city centre and looking at numerous shops with Help wanted signs in them. If the Irish aren't prepared to work in those jobs they have to be filled. You wouldn't want an enterprise to fail or restrict its growth due to inability in recruiting staff in these tough economic times now would you?0 -
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I see; so non-Irish people can just up and leave at the drop of a hat, eh?I do care. If I lose my job and I find myself on the dole next year I would rather not have to leave the country to find work.
It might look good in the short-term, but it ain’t such a good thing if the people leaving are skilled workers who could be of great benefit to our economy.It's a good thing if unemployment is high and if the people emigrating are creating vacancies that can be filled by people on the dole.
Indeed they have; rising unemployment with net emigration. Hmmm…………The ESRI have also predicted that unemployment could reach 8% next year.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1007/economy1.html
We’ll also have huge numbers of people leaving, a fact which you constantly overlook or at least refuse to consider significant.But it's not doing it for us. We're in a recession now and we're still seeing huge numbers of people entering the country. We'll still have huge numbers of people entering the country next year.
It would be incredibly naive of anyone to think that it would.Even if more people are expected to leave than are expected to enter it, the difference won't be enough to make up for the loss of jobs and the increase in the dole queues.
It’s also incredibly naive to think that everyone currently on the dole wants to fill jobs in shops, cafes, restaurants, etc.We'll still be in a much better position if we reduce immigration and let the vacancies in the jobs market be filled by unemployed people in this country.
I have no idea what you mean by that.But they can always get a job here. That's the problem, they can compete with people in this country for any available job that comes on the market.
You cannot expect migration to react instantly to changes in the state of the economy; there has to be a lag.Immigration. Net. Year. This one.
How? Some people are on the dole because they don’t want to work. Some people are on the dole while they work for cash-in-hand. Most people are on the dole because they can’t find a particular job; not just ANY job, as you would have us believe. The obvious solution to the problem, to me at least, is to create more jobs. It’s also the most beneficial solution from an economic perspective.Because people on the dole will find it easier to get back into employment.
People in other countries don’t have to compete for jobs? Really?Any job vacancies that arise have a better chance of being filled by an unemployed person on the dole in those countries than they will in Ireland. In this country unemployed people will have to compete with tens of thousands of immigrants for jobs.
And how significant a fall would that be?The important thing is that it falls significantly enough to ease the competition on jobs and to make it easier for unemployed people to get back into employment.
And what exactly is it (specifically) that you think the government should do (within EU law)? Would new legislation be required every time the unemployment level changes?In the short-term I think we can expect to see more immigrants entering the country than the economy needs and so I think it is time for the government to act. I would expect them to do something on this within the next few months.0 -
In the short-term I think we can expect to see more immigrants entering the country than the economy needs and so I think it is time for the government to act.
Let me give you an idea of what the government "doing something" would look like:
-Improper detention and harrassment of anyone from a third world country, even those who have visas and every right to travel/live in Ireland
-Illegally refusing to give non-eu spouses of EU nationals residency unless they have gained residency in another state first...and then deporting those they have refused residency to
-Purposely slowing down INIS employees working on the tens of thousands of back logged applications for Long Term Residency and Citizenship resulting in almost two years wait and 3 years for the latter.
-Charging huge fees for annual GNIB registration (even if your permit is for two years)
-Prevent EU nationals from marriage to non-EU nationals
-Increase in abuse by INIS officials of foreignors coming into Ireland.
-Default denial of all asylum applications
Oh wait...I'm sorry...that's already happening. I'd hate to see how the govenment "doing something" would manifest itself.0 -
I haven't had a problem finding a suitably qualified candidate from among the available pool of labour in this country. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether I'm drawing an Irish or foreign worker from that pool, as long as they're here legally and the right person for the job.If you can't find a suitably qualified candidate from among the available pool of labour in this country then you can apply for a work-permit for a qualified candidate from outside the country.
I don't expect you (who's "us", by the way?) to afford me any luxuries. I'd rather you didn't strip out suitably qualified workers from the available pool, but luckily our EU membership means you can't do that anyway.As taxpayers with no stake in your company you can't expect us to afford you the luxury of having the best of everything.
So your answer is to somehow confound our legal obligations as an EU member, and in so doing, reduce the available pool of suitably qualified workers?A huge amount of our tax revenue will be going towards supporting people on the dole and so our interest is in reducing those dole queues as much as possible. Allowing huge numbers of people to enter the labour market when there are already over 200 thousand people on the dole just doesn't seem like a sensible thing to be doing.
No thanks.0 -
No actually I don't, I believe the influx of hard workers from overseas has enriched the country no end. There are still jobs out there that need to be filled as you can see just walking around Dublin city centre and looking at numerous shops with Help wanted signs in them. If the Irish aren't prepared to work in those jobs they have to be filled. You wouldn't want an enterprise to fail or restrict its growth due to inability in recruiting staff in these tough economic times now would you?
It appears that not only the Irish, but the 50,000 non Irish on the dole, don't want these jobs,0 -
TheDude2008 wrote: »And 112,00 immigrants have arrived so far this year acording to the cso website. HELLO we are in recession and we take in 112,00 immigrants so far this year when irish people are being layed off in there tens of thousands, there is massive anger out there massive im hearing it every day, we must be the softest touch of a nation on earth.
I do not like the association of the words "immigrants" and "anger".
If it was not for the immigrants (and the EU funding) your economy would not have been so prosperous. I find your post borderline xenophobic.
I believe the Lisbon treaty was going to give more power to the states with regards to controlling the stream of immigrants, but you voted no.
Why don't you start by recalling all irish immigrants (35 million irish in the states, 50 000 illegal at the moment).0 -
Would you agree with me that a fall in immigration would be a good thing for the economy in the present economic climate?
No, it wouldn't. A legitimate non-national out of work is just as entitled to social security as a national.
And by the way, countries such as France, Germany, Italy, Sweden, and even an EEA country like Norway do not have a lower rate of immigration than Ireland.0 -
No, it wouldn't. A legitimate non-national out of work is just as entitled to social security as a national.
As I've said before..."we" are entitled to the dole as a national only the INIS will refuse residency or citizenship if you claim it so it kinda makes it so we aren't actually entitled to it.0 -
Why don't you start by recalling all irish immigrants (35 million irish in the states, 50 000 illegal at the moment).
Or start by telling Dermot Ahern that he can't say a word about illegal immigrants in his own country. Thats unless he calls for Brian Cowen and other senior members of the Irish government to stay out of the affairs of the US immigration service.0 -
I was actually referring to 'legitimate' nationals as the "nationalised immigrants" the original poster seems to think unworthy of the same social rights as anyone else.As I've said before..."we" are entitled to the dole as a national only the INIS will refuse residency or citizenship if you claim it so it kinda makes it so we aren't actually entitled to it.0 -
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I was actually referring to 'legitimate' nationals as the "nationalised immigrants" the original poster seems to think unworthy of the same social rights as anyone else.
I agree that we/they should be entitled to the same rights although I'm confused as to what you mean by "legitimate" nationals.0
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