Budget 2009

-Chris-

With the Budget being announced early this year (14th October) and the turmoil/confusion/mess caused to new and used car prices by last years "tweaking" of the VRT regime, does anyone have any opinions on what should and shouldn't be done this year?

Will the VRT or Road Tax rates be re-tweaked?
Will the CO2 bands be revised?
Will the gov't use VRT to fill in the gaps in the tax coffers?
What kind of incentives or changes would you like to see?

superjosh9

I'd say that bands will stay the same but that the tax/band will change.

I think that the G band will be increased. The reason being that if people went out and still bought G rated cars post-July, knowing of the high price, then if they can pay €2000 - why not let them pay €3000 or more? I'd rather they did this than increase the price on the A-D bands.

E, F, G should all be increased.

They have between €2.8 and €9 Billion to make up, have to do it somewhere.

If they aren't getting the money that they were getting from the Automotive side, which they aren't, then they have to find it elsewhere. After VRT/Road-Tax, the only other place is probably going to be petrol. I think they are going to tax the hell out of it. I see BIG increases here.

It's all very sad.

And say good by to public Healthcare and Education! Yeh!!

A$$HOLES.

E92

Hopefully they will tax diesel at a rate reflecting the fact that it burns 13% more CO2 per litre than petrol. Well naturally I would prefer no tax on fuel but taxing fuel both achieves the Government's objective of reducing CO2 by making us drive less and/or more ecologically. It would also make the polluter pay, another important objective, particularly if the tax them on a CO2 per litre basis as outlined above.

I would be completely opposed to any increases in road tax and in particular VRT though. Reductions in VRT in particular would be welcome, particularly for the newer super low CO2 cars coming on stream that manage below 100 g/km. I know it's not going to happen though, so with that in mind the best thing would be to leave it alone.

The car market is in enough turmoil without cars becoming even more expensive than they already. There'll be even more job losses if we start increasing VRT now that people will be on tighter budgets than they have been previously.

I am hopeful that given the amount of pandering to the SIMI the Government does that there will not be any increases in VRT for the time being.

By the way superjosh9, band F and especially band G cars have been losing value hand over fist since the VRT changeover came in even though pre July cars would have been both cheaper to buy and (most likely) cheaper to tax too.

The sales for these cars has slumped, so the last thing they need is yet more tax because people are simply not buying these types of cars anymore.

Also, the average car since July pollutes 21 g/km less CO2 than before July, so that's an imporvement of between 1 and 2 bands depending on where you're looking at.

Zonda999

AudiChris wrote: »

With the Budget being announced early this year (14th October) and the turmoil/confusion/mess caused to new and used car prices by last years "tweaking" of the VRT regime, does anyone have any opinions on what should and shouldn't be done this year?

Will the VRT or Road Tax rates be re-tweaked?
Will the CO2 bands be revised?
Will the gov't use VRT to fill in the gaps in the tax coffers?
What kind of incentives or changes would you like to see?

1.Yes. Absolutely.An increase on all bands i would imagine
2.Possibly. I thknk from around 140g to 190g should be revised
3.Yes.Why wouldnt they.People will always need cars, and i think its an easy way of bringin in more cash

IMO, Of course

I think some sort of scrappage scheme would be welcome in order to help shift all the used cars

bazz26

Duty on fuel to increase, possibly a VAT rate increase,
Some sort of overhall of the new VRT rules especially diesel cars,
Old and new motor tax system rate increases.
Increase in Government levy on motor insurance.

The Irish motorist better have a large jar of vasaline ready for next Tuesday.

Gypo

E92 wrote: »

Hopefully they will tax diesel at a rate reflecting the fact that it burns 13% more CO2 per litre than petrol.

I don't understand this , if diesels produce 13% more CO2 for every litre burned, are they not in effect taxed for this already?

To answer the AudiChris's question, I would be surprised to see any significant changes to the new scheme, even in the current situation. Perhaps a slight price increase on the old tax scheme and on tax bands in the new scheme, rather than any changes to the bands themselves.

superjosh9

Meant to say, I wouldn't be surprised either if they decide to back date the road-tax on the pre July cars to that they are based on the new system!

I still can't believe they guaranteed the banks. With what money are they doing this exactly? Oh wait..!

Biro

superjosh9 wrote: »

I think that the G band will be increased. The reason being that if people went out and still bought G rated cars post-July, knowing of the high price, then if they can pay €2000 - why not let them pay €3000 or more? .

A similar arguement could be constructed that if someone can afford to spend €65,000 on a full spec 520d, why let them away with only €150 a year road tax? There's nothing they can do but punish everyone. I think they might add 5% to all tax bands maybe to claw some back, now that they realise that half the country is paying less road tax than they were before.
There's more to be made elsewhere though. I'd have no problem with them increasing the higher income tax bracket, or even introducing another one for 6 figure earners would be fairer. Ditch that artist tax-free ****. They'll make changes to the building industry, maybe first time buyers or something, but it'll be in the favour of buyers to try and get a trickle of sales back into the housing market. Fags and booze are going to get walloped.

Biro

superjosh9 wrote: »

I still can't believe they guaranteed the banks. With what money are they doing this exactly? Oh wait..!

That's the thing. If they never did that, there was a high chance of at least one of the banks folding. That'd cause mayhem with the Irish economy. By saying what they said they immediately reduced the risk of it ever happening. It's kind of like a poker move. It's quite clever really, now people in UK are investing in Irish banks.

faceman

Increase the tax on the higher emmission rate vehicles and also introduce a "height" tax on non commercial, tall or wide vehicles used in cities such as SUV's.

smash

superjosh9 wrote: »

I'd say that bands will stay the same but that the tax/band will change.

I think that the G band will be increased. The reason being that if people went out and still bought G rated cars post-July, knowing of the high price, then if they can pay €2000 - why not let them pay €3000 or more? I'd rather they did this than increase the price on the A-D bands.

E, F, G should all be increased.

They have between €2.8 and €9 Billion to make up, have to do it somewhere.

If they aren't getting the money that they were getting from the Automotive side, which they aren't, then they have to find it elsewhere. After VRT/Road-Tax, the only other place is probably going to be petrol. I think they are going to tax the hell out of it. I see BIG increases here.

It's all very sad.

And say good by to public Healthcare and Education! Yeh!!

A$$HOLES.

E, F, G should be increased... are you for real? it's already a rip off the way it is. A lot of cars as low as 1.8 are paying double the tax they would have last year and you want that increased?

WTF are you on.....

siralfalot

steve06 wrote: »

E, F, G should be increased... are you for real? it's already a rip off the way it is. A lot of cars as low as 1.8 are paying double the tax they would have last year and you want that increased?

WTF are you on.....

+1

superjosh9

Biro wrote: »

That's the thing. If they never did that, there was a high chance of at least one of the banks folding. That'd cause mayhem with the Irish economy. By saying what they said they immediately reduced the risk of it ever happening. It's kind of like a poker move. It's quite clever really, now people in UK are investing in Irish banks.

They're taking the chance that they won't need to honour the guarantee. I might as well have made the guarantee. If they were taking over the bank(s) as in Northern Rock situation, then fair enough. But this is totally different.

There was no reason to do it. The banks are simply businesses, granted with more importance to the Irish public. Indeed, they don't even know exactly how much money they are dealing with.

Now we'll have to hope that nothing happens, because if it does, well then you can watch the taxes. And you can be sure that major businesses will be the worst hit. And that spells more unemployment and chaos alike.

If things go bad, that decision could have been the final back-breaker of the economy. There was a reason that other countries weren't doing the same, Greece and Germany are obviously in trouble.

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

@Steve06 I was thinking what they might do, not what I want. I'd be against any change - but do you really think that will happen? So get off your horse.

Biro

superjosh9 wrote: »

They're taking the chance that they won't need to honour the guarantee. I might as well have made the guarantee. If they were taking over the bank(s) as in Northern Rock situation, then fair enough. But this is totally different.

There was no reason to do it. The banks are simply businesses, granted with more importance to the Irish public. Indeed, they don't even know exactly how much money they are dealing with.

Now we'll have to hope that nothing happens, because if it does, well then you can watch the taxes. And you can be sure that major businesses will be the worst hit. And that spells more unemployment and chaos alike.

If things go bad, that decision could have been the final back-breaker of the economy. There was a reason that other countries weren't doing the same, Greece and Germany are obviously in trouble.

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

@Steve06 I was thinking what they might do, not what I want. I'd be against any change - but do you really think that will happen? So get off your horse.

So honestly, do you think that if the banks went wallop without this Government backing that everything would still be rosey? No Government can let the banks go, it's the worst thing that can happen.

E92

Gypo wrote: »

I don't understand this , if diesels produce 13% more CO2 for every litre burned, are they not in effect taxed for this already?

Funnily enough they are not; diesel is taxed at 6 c less per litre than petrol in spite of being 13% more polluting of CO2 per litre burned(than petrol) and the fact that petrol is far better for our health and air quality(diesel fumes cause cancer). IIRC petrol has an excise of around 44.3 cent per litre, while diesel has an excise of around 38.3 cent per litre. I am suggesting that the either the excise on petrol be reduced to around 33.9 cent per litre(though really I'd be in favour of it being lower than that because it is better on other non CO2 pollutants too) or alternatively that we increase the excise to around 50.1 cent per litre.

I know I'm not going to get a lot of support for my proposal but nevertheless if we really DO care about CO2 and of far more importance to me is if we don't want to be overloading our health service even more so than it already is and value our health, then we need to stop the shameless and irresponsible promotion of diesel in passenger cars. Petrol is flawed too, but far less flawed than diesel.

Petrol is a much cleaner burning fuel than diesel; the fact that you have to burn as much as 30% more of it than diesel in a car does not change this for a second.

A 50 mpg petrol is as good as a 56.5 mpg diesel for the planet, but vastly superior for our lungs and the quality of air we breathe(the EU is far more leniant on emission standards with diesels than they are with petrols to the point that a Euro 6 diesel, which will be mandatory from September 2014 is only as clean as a euro 4 petrol, a standard introduced in September 2005, in other words they're giving diesels 9 years to catch up to petrols, and needless to say the standards for petrols will have gotten tougher in the intervening period.

superjosh9

Biro wrote: »

So honestly, do you think that if the banks went wallop without this Government backing that everything would still be rosey? No Government can let the banks go, it's the worst thing that can happen.

Our government is outta cash! There is no guarantee! If *one or a few* banks go, yes people will be screwed. But now if they go, *everyone* is screwed because of the long-term damage that it will be cause. You'll be paying for it still in 50 years time!

peasant

Could we possibly stick to the motoring side of things and leave the banking issues to the releveant fora?

Thanks

superjosh9

It was entirely relevant to this thread Peasant, as the money that doesn't come from the automotive side has to come from somewhere else, and vice-versa.

I'll leave, don't lock it.

pburns

I don't think they can change the tax bands so soon but it was a massive mis-calculation. €150 tax and measly VRT on a 520d constitutes a loophole! Not the BMW driver's fault - the beancounters ****ed up in underestimating the surge of low CO2 cars about to hit the market.

They can make a start by introducing a % increase across the board. Most people who bought a new car in 08 (myself included) are getting too good a deal on road tax...

positron

So is it the general consensus then that the VRT might go up soon? Should those who are currently looking to buy one from the UK should just hurry up and buy before before budget?

peasant

I could possibly see a different way of calculating motortax emerging from this.

A combination of the old and new system in that the CO rating becomes a multiplicating factor of the old cc rate so that a small cc band B car is going to be cheaper than a big engined band B car ...or something like that.

galwaytt

pburns wrote: »

I don't think they can change the tax bands so soon

of course they can !! - they did a u-turn on the pre-08's inside the space of (2?) months already, so embarrassment won't be holding them back, that's for sure....

...but it was a massive mis-calculation. €150 tax and measly VRT on a 520d constitutes a loophole! Not the BMW driver's fault - the beancounters ****ed up in underestimating the surge of low CO2 cars about to hit the market.

++1. I think 40W is about to fall on his sword on this one......and Cowan will be the guy to push him........they absolutely gave away a fortune on this, and the R-word is the perfect excuse for them to recoup it. That's my prediction, anyhoo. Which raises an interesting point.........if they do do something like that, then they will have proven with stroke of the pen, that the 'environment' comes a poor second to Revenue (which we all know anyway..), but I wonder if this latest sacrifice of the Green manifesto will have any political repercussions.......mmm, interesting.....

They can make a start by introducing a % increase across the board. Most people who bought a new car in 08 (myself included) are getting too good a deal on road tax...

I think the old system might go up a %, but the newer ones much higher - in fact, probably close to bringing them back in line with the older system...........

interesting times, interesting times..........

I wonder does Ivan Yates take bets on the budget.......??

E92

peasant wrote: »

A combination of the old and new system in that the CO rating becomes a multiplicating factor of the old cc rate so that a small cc band B car is going to be cheaper than a big engined band B car ...or something like that.

But then that would go against the principle of encouraging people to buy a greener option(well when I say greener I mean lower CO2, not actually greener because that would require promoting the green pump rather than the black one).

When the VRT changes were announced last November John Gormley made particular reference to the fact that the Greens wanted a CO2 only system and not a part engine size/ part CO2 FF were thinking of.

As for the idea of hiking up the annual motor tax rates as per the 520d with 136 g/km CO2 going back towards the old levels, well if they do that then that will make petrol versions of cars like the Fiesta, Yaris etc cost the same as a 2.0 under the old system, and I highly doubt that the Government wants to make small cars an unattractive owning proposition.

What I could definately see is a widening of the road tax bill between band A and band B, somehow I don't think saving €50 on a bill of €150 per annum is really going to persuade people to go for a band A rather than a band B car, particularly when band A cars are either low power diesel(for the most part) or hopelessly low power petrols, either way it's a very small amount of money relatively speaking.

Definately the thing about taxing diesel more is a possibility, while one half of me would like to see the idea happen because of my opposition to diesel, another half of me knows that this would promote low power 1.6 petrol Paddy special family saloons once again, and I'd really be hoping we can move away from that and get proper versions of cars.

I also know that this would make Gormless a hypocrite as well.

mick.fr

People ain't buying car, it is not gonna change anytime soon, so what the hell increasing VRT is gonna change?
A better option to raise cash, even if I don't like it, would be to increase taxes on gas.

Berty

I pay insurance which of courses differs with everybody, €500 tax per year and around €85 a week on diesel. I think I pay enough to people and the government is surely taking a nice chunk out of my outgoings to feed its habit.

A habit of paying chief executives bonus's of up to €3.5m each. How many is there again? Around 7 execs? But there are not enough beds and there is always pay freezes and recruitment freezes. I wonder why.

And there is Bertie driving around for the rest of his life with a chaffeur driven car. Madness!

Willie O'Dea has a car and you never see him in it. Want to see Willie O'Dea. Drive down the dock road in Limerick any Sunday morning. He is strolling along in his long trenchcoat. Actually, that sounds very worrying............thats where the ladies of the night work. Is he actually.......................

heyjude

I'll be staggered if petrol/diesel taxes aren't increased by 5-10c per litre in the budget(I bet they're glad we went metric, a 10c per litre increase would be 45c per gallon!), but if Lenihan describes such an increase as anything other than a simple tax raising matter, I'm gonna chuck the remote out the window and if he calls it a green tax, then the TV's going out too. Why can't they just tell the truth....the coffers are empty we need some quick cash and motorists are an easy mark, oh and yes, screw the effect such an increase will have on inflation.

They might increase the insurance levy and motor tax rates too. Bad news all round

Sandwich

E92 wrote: »

Hopefully they will tax diesel at a rate reflecting the fact that it burns 13% more CO2 per litre than petrol.

13% more CO2/l, but diesel consumption 25% less than petrol l/km with equivalent power engines. Net diesel CO2 emissions 10% less than petrol per km. Fairer environmentally to increase the price of petrol.

Darragh29

I'd say that anyone driving an SUV is going to be taking it up the arse in this budget, Range Rovers, X5's, VW Touaregs, Porche, etc. Kind of not unfair either I think, if they have the money for these hummers, then I don't see the problem with leaning on these folks when the chips are down...

E92

Sandwich wrote: »

13% more CO2/l, but diesel consumption 25% less than petrol l/km with equivalent power engines. Net diesel CO2 emissions 10% less than petrol per km. Fairer environmentally to increase the price of petrol.

Why should we be trying to promote something that kills 80,000 Europeans and 21,000 Americans a year over something that kills 10,000 Americans a year, and that's in a country where nobody drives a diesel and car usage is far higher than it is over here in Europe?

And even on the environmental thing taxing diesel at a lower rate than petrol means that you have to go for a much lower CO2 car for petrol than you have to for diesel to make the numbers work, even though petrol is vastly cleaner than diesel?

smash

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'd say that anyone driving an SUV is going to be taking it up the arse in this budget, Range Rovers, X5's, VW Touaregs, Porche, etc. Kind of not unfair either I think, if they have the money for these hummers, then I don't see the problem with leaning on these folks when the chips are down...

sure, someone works hard for their money so they can buy luxuries and then you think it's fair to take their money back from them!!!

This is the problem with Ireland - it's easier to sit back, get a council house and do as little as possible and claim as much as you can and let people who actually work really hard pay the way.... load of rubbish, I hate that attitude!

If someone works hard and buys a Ferrari, why should they be penalised for the hard work they've put in? Why on earth should they pay for everyone else? In times like these, they're the ones who've put in the work and should now be able to sit back and relax and enjoy the luxuries they've worked so hard to get!

People should not have to pay for doing something right!

Darragh29

steve06 wrote: »

sure, someone works hard for their money so they can buy luxuries and then you think it's fair to take their money back from them!!!

This is the problem with Ireland - it's easier to sit back, get a council house and do as little as possible and claim as much as you can and let people who actually work really hard pay the way.... load of rubbish, I hate that attitude!

If someone works hard and buys a Ferrari, why should they be penalised for the hard work they've put in? Why on earth should they pay for everyone else? In times like these, they're the ones who've put in the work and should now be able to sit back and relax and enjoy the luxuries they've worked so hard to get!

People should not have to pay for doing something right!

Well most people I see driving X5's and overpriced cars, are earning no more than me. If it's a luxury, tax it, if it's a necessity, leave it alone.