Budget 2009

ninty9er · 08-10-2008 12:24am

If I could get 5 minutes with Lenihan before Tuesday (unfortunately I won't be in the same room as him until Friday week:mad:) I'd ask him to put a % surcharge on NoX and CO emissions so that there's afairer measure of environmental efficiency than just Co2 and reduce the wighting of Co2...so that for example a 1.8 Avensis (outgoing model) with 171 g/km Co2 and 0.48g/km CO and .05 g/km NOx.

so 18% for the Co2, 8% for the CO figure and 2% for the Nox....still giving 28%, but the NOx figure wil compensate for the skew to diesel in the current system.

ninty9er · 08-10-2008 12:27am

steve06 wrote: »

sure, someone works hard for their money so they can buy luxuries and then you think it's fair to take their money back from them!!!

This is the problem with Ireland - it's easier to sit back, get a council house and do as little as possible and claim as much as you can and let people who actually work really hard pay the way.... load of rubbish, I hate that attitude!

If someone works hard and buys a Ferrari, why should they be penalised for the hard work they've put in? Why on earth should they pay for everyone else? In times like these, they're the ones who've put in the work and should now be able to sit back and relax and enjoy the luxuries they've worked so hard to get!

People should not have to pay for doing something right!

You don't need to buy a Ferrari with your hard earned cash, and just because you drive a Ferrari doesn't mean you're completely loaded, you could be a drug dealer on the dole, doesn't mean you work hard.

Darragh29 · 08-10-2008 12:43am

ninty9er wrote: »

If I could get 5 minutes with Lenihan before Tuesday (unfortunately I won't be in the same room as him until Friday week:mad:) I'd ask him to put a % surcharge on NoX and CO emissions so that there's afairer measure of environmental efficiency than just Co2 and reduce the wighting of Co2...so that for example a 1.8 Avensis (outgoing model) with 171 g/km Co2 and 0.48g/km CO and .05 g/km NOx.

so 18% for the Co2, 8% for the CO figure and 2% for the Nox....still giving 28%, but the NOx figure wil compensate for the skew to diesel in the current system.

NoX and CO emissions are so low that they are neglible. CO is effectively zero in any type of modern car! CO and NoX are not causing climate change, CO2 is the gas that is fu*king up our climate!?!?!

eringobragh · 08-10-2008 12:52am

ninty9er wrote: »

If I could get 5 minutes with Lenihan before Tuesday (unfortunately I won't be in the same room as him until Friday week:mad:) I'd ask him to put a % surcharge on NoX and CO emissions so that there's afairer measure of environmental efficiency than just Co2 and reduce the wighting of Co2...so that for example a 1.8 Avensis (outgoing model) with 171 g/km Co2 and 0.48g/km CO and .05 g/km NOx.

so 18% for the Co2, 8% for the CO figure and 2% for the Nox....still giving 28%, but the NOx figure wil compensate for the skew to diesel in the current system.

LOL That would not work!. That would be chaos IMO. The new system is confusing enough to alot of motorists adding more figures and percentages into the mix.

As for the CO2 nonsense well in fairness were a pimple on an elephants arse. As long as the worlds biggest polluters (America, India, China, Etc) keep going the way there going I doubt it matters what any of us are driving.

Gormley can keep his bicycle and his Toyota Smug.

Darragh29 · 08-10-2008 12:57am

Also, I don't know of a single garage that tests for NoX. The NCT can't test for it, because there is no need to.

kikel · 08-10-2008 6:52am

Whatever about increasing taxes on the average motorist that is already under pressure. How about introducing a new way of creating revenue. Introduce personalised registration plates. This is big business in the UK and maybe this would be an ideal opportunity to introduce it here. I know many on here will be disgusted by the taught of it, but it would be a flamboyant tax and a tax of those that wanna pay it.

smash · 08-10-2008 9:24am

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well most people I see driving X5's and overpriced cars, are earning no more than me. If it's a luxury, tax it, if it's a necessity, leave it alone.

Why should you be taxed on a luxury? not everyone wants to drive 1.4ltr Micras ffs!

To a lot of people a car is a luxury and not just seen as an a-b mode of transport. I don't see the government downgrading their fleet of A8's to drive smart cars so why should the public?

L1011 · 08-10-2008 10:01am

steve06 wrote: »

Why should you be taxed on a luxury? not everyone wants to drive 1.4ltr Micras ffs!

To a lot of people a car is a luxury and not just seen as an a-b mode of transport. I don't see the government downgrading their fleet of A8's to drive smart cars so why should the public?

Thats the entire basis of our sales tax system - 21% VAT on "luxuries", 0% on "nessecities" and 13.5% on whatever they want it to be on...

smash · 08-10-2008 10:11am

What I'm saying is that, you pay tax when buying the car, you pay tax on fuel, you pay motor tax and now people are saying that the motor tax on these cars should be put even higher because "if you can afford a big car, then you can afford to pay extra for tax".... It's an attitude I don't agree with at all, the tax has already gone up and shouldn't be put up again!

If it is put up again it wont only be affecting the X5's etc which people seem to be obsessed about mentioning - it will affect a lot of cars with a lot smaller engines. Lotus Elise for example!

Anan1 · 08-10-2008 10:22am

steve06 wrote: »

What I'm saying is that, you pay tax when buying the car, you pay tax on fuel, you pay motor tax and now people are saying that the motor tax on these cars should be put even higher because "if you can afford a big car, then you can afford to pay extra for tax".... It's an attitude I don't agree with at all, the tax has already gone up and shouldn't be put up again!

Slightly OT, but if you were to tax all cars equally then in real terms you'd be hitting poorer people harder than the rich. More taxation for someone on a low income can mean less food, clothing, heat, etc - for someone on a high income, it may just mean fewer options on the BMW.

Cyrus · 08-10-2008 10:27am

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'd say that anyone driving an SUV is going to be taking it up the arse in this budget, Range Rovers, X5's, VW Touaregs, Porche, etc. Kind of not unfair either I think, if they have the money for these hummers, then I don't see the problem with leaning on these folks when the chips are down...

who do you think they are leaning on as it is. People in work are contributing to the exchequer, the more they earn the more they pay,

Bugrudgery stinks, get over it

Cyrus · 08-10-2008 10:28am

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well most people I see driving X5's and overpriced cars, are earning no more than me. If it's a luxury, tax it, if it's a necessity, leave it alone.

how in gods name can you know that

smash · 08-10-2008 10:40am

Anan1 wrote: »

Slightly OT, but if you were to tax all cars equally then in real terms you'd be hitting poorer people harder than the rich.

I never said tax all cars equally, I just don't agree with putting up the tax again on cars that have big engines or higher CO2 output. If it was to be fair then the prices would be up at the pump and down on motor tax so you pay for usage!

Anan1 wrote: »

More taxation for someone on a low income can mean less food, clothing, heat, etc

Yea and it's already gone up this year so the government have already hit people on low incomes. In fact they're forcing people to buy new cars, which causes more damage to the environment and the economy because people can't afford it!

Anan1 wrote: »

for someone on a high income, it may just mean fewer options on the BMW.

Why should they have to settle for less than they want? If they've worked for it, they should be able to get it and not pay massive yearly tax's for it! And why are people focusing on BMW's all the time?

Biro · 08-10-2008 10:46am

steve06 wrote: »

sure, someone works hard for their money so they can buy luxuries and then you think it's fair to take their money back from them!!!

This is the problem with Ireland - it's easier to sit back, get a council house and do as little as possible and claim as much as you can and let people who actually work really hard pay the way.... load of rubbish, I hate that attitude!

If someone works hard and buys a Ferrari, why should they be penalised for the hard work they've put in? Why on earth should they pay for everyone else? In times like these, they're the ones who've put in the work and should now be able to sit back and relax and enjoy the luxuries they've worked so hard to get!

People should not have to pay for doing something right!

Are you in Government? Because it's THIS attitude that's rampant in every Government we ever had. Reward the wealthy and screw the working class. That's the way it always was, and I don't get it. Are you honestly telling me that a wealthy person definately works far harder than someone not wealthy? If you believe that then you're a fool. The whole reason we have a Government system is to make all the necessary services available to us, either without paying or paying a small amount.
Would you prefer that they introduced education fees and abolished VRT on Ferraris? Make you feel great wouldn't it? Cowen buys his nice new Ferrari cause it's now affordable for him while you look for a 2nd job to send your third child to school... wow... how fair! If you can afford luxuries then you can afford to pay taxes on them. Most people work just as hard as the next person, some people get lucky breaks, others don't. Reward the lucky with tax breaks? What a sham. Bono and his kind paying no tax... cause he deserves it more than a nurse in the childrens hospital, struggling to keep a childs spirits up but knowing he won't see Christmas?
It's time to kick the country into shape. Foreigners coming over here to live off our taxes because this is the biggest hand out country (and I'm not talking about all foreigners before I get lambasted... I've no problems with them coming over here for education or work), house built for some young one who gets herself knocked up and then letting the boyfriend live there for free, it's all arseways. The people who are the wealthiest and the people who are the laziest get the biggest rewards. Giving away free Gas to shell, giving away tolls to companies then buying the roads back of them... the list is so long! But no, it's far easier to screw the working class.

E92 · 08-10-2008 10:52am

Cyrus wrote: »

Bugrudgery stinks, get over it

+1.

If people can afford something then good luck to them.

The only time I begudge anyone is whenever I see them buying something to keep up with the Joneses. If people are buying something because they actually want to buy it for them and not to impress the neighbours/friends/relatives etc and are fortunate enough in life to have the kind of money that can buy a nice big powerful car then I think that's great, and I wish more people had an interest in cars like that.

Cyrus · 08-10-2008 11:01am

Biro wrote: »

Are you in Government? Because it's THIS attitude that's rampant in every Government we ever had. Reward the wealthy and screw the working class. That's the way it always was, and I don't get it. Are you honestly telling me that a wealthy person definately works far harder than someone not wealthy? If you believe that then you're a fool. The whole reason we have a Government system is to make all the necessary services available to us, either without paying or paying a small amount.
Would you prefer that they introduced education fees and abolished VRT on Ferraris? Make you feel great wouldn't it? Cowen buys his nice new Ferrari cause it's now affordable for him while you look for a 2nd job to send your third child to school... wow... how fair! If you can afford luxuries then you can afford to pay taxes on them. Most people work just as hard as the next person, some people get lucky breaks, others don't. Reward the lucky with tax breaks? What a sham. Bono and his kind paying no tax... cause he deserves it more than a nurse in the childrens hospital, struggling to keep a childs spirits up but knowing he won't see Christmas?
It's time to kick the country into shape. Foreigners coming over here to live off our taxes because this is the biggest hand out country (and I'm not talking about all foreigners before I get lambasted... I've no problems with them coming over here for education or work), house built for some young one who gets herself knocked up and then letting the boyfriend live there for free, it's all arseways. The people who are the wealthiest and the people who are the laziest get the biggest rewards. Giving away free Gas to shell, giving away tolls to companies then buying the roads back of them... the list is so long! But no, it's far easier to screw the working class.

screw the working class, are you for real?

the working class in ireland have it better than in most other places, free bloody everything.

You think people that have gotten on in life and earn more money were lucky? are you off your rocker.

Of course this is the kind of sentiment that leads to people voting for sinn fein :mad::(

peasant · 08-10-2008 11:06am

emmm ...topic is that way ...

>

Biro · 08-10-2008 11:13am

Cyrus wrote: »

screw the working class, are you for real?

the working class in ireland have it better than in most other places, free bloody everything.

You think people that have gotten on in life and earn more money were lucky? are you off your rocker.

Of course this is the kind of sentiment that leads to people voting for sinn fein :mad::(

Honestly now.... what the hell are you talking about?
I still can't see where I said that.

smash · 08-10-2008 11:30am

God, there's so much wrong with your rant there!

Biro wrote: »

Are you in Government? Because it's THIS attitude that's rampant in every Government we ever had.

No I'm not.

Biro wrote: »

Are you honestly telling me that a wealthy person definately works far harder than someone not wealthy? If you believe that then you're a fool.

no not all the time but most of the people with a lot of money made it themselves without help so why should the country lean on them? and I'm not a fool!

Biro wrote: »

Would you prefer that they introduced education fees and abolished VRT on Ferraris? Make you feel great wouldn't it?

No, I didn't say that and I never mentioned VRT!

Biro wrote: »

Cowen buys his nice new Ferrari cause it's now affordable for him while you look for a 2nd job to send your third child to school... wow... how fair!

Cowan wouldn't fit into a Ferrari

Biro wrote: »

If you can afford luxuries then you can afford to pay taxes on them.

But why should your tax's be so much higher than everyone else just because you treat yourself?

Biro wrote: »

Most people work just as hard as the next person, some people get lucky breaks, others don't. Reward the lucky with tax breaks? What a sham.

I never once mention tax breaks did I?

Biro wrote: »

Bono and his kind paying no tax... cause he deserves it more than a nurse in the childrens hospital, struggling to keep a childs spirits up but knowing he won't see Christmas?

I never said that and I totally disagree with with that statement. I personally know the **** that nurses go through and they should be payed a hell of a lot more for what they do!

Biro wrote: »

It's time to kick the country into shape. Foreigners coming over here to live off our taxes because this is the biggest hand out country (and I'm not talking about all foreigners before I get lambasted... I've no problems with them coming over here for education or work), house built for some young one who gets herself knocked up and then letting the boyfriend live there for free, it's all arseways. The people who are the wealthiest and the people who are the laziest get the biggest rewards.

that was my point, but I think the wealthy people should be allowed enjoy their money, the lazy should be kicked out but they're not because they have it too easy. Wealthy people should be allowed have it easy without the country leaning on them because they've worked for it. (most of them)

Biro wrote: »

Giving away free Gas to shell, giving away tolls to companies then buying the roads back of them... the list is so long! But no, it's far easier to screw the working class.

I never said screw the working class, I said stop leaning on the wealthy... stand on your own feet and make a difference instead of waiting for someone else to fix things just because they have money!

If we were all to subscribe to your way of thinking then the rich should be tax'd to hell and the working class should get a lot more benefits - this discourages people from making money and so everyone becomes lazy so they can get stuff for free! It's the typical Irish attitude and if you made a lot of money tomorrow I can guarantee your attitude would change pretty quickly!

pburns · 08-10-2008 11:34am

I think the government lost a lot of tax/VRT revenue by mis-calculating the amount they would take from the new CO2-based system. I mean €150 road-tax for a new 5-series:eek:! It's not the buyer's fault, in fact they should be commended for playing the system. But maybe the government needed a few petrolhead 'consultants' to brief them on the pletora of low-CO2 models that were waiting in the wings to take advantage of the new system.

They could easily introduce a major increase within each of the existing bands and most 08 buyers would still be paying less than they were under the old system.

(Yes, I guess I am saying we should be paying more tax:rolleyes:...)

kikel wrote: »

How about introducing a new way of creating revenue. Introduce personalised registration plates. This is big business in the UK and maybe this would be an ideal opportunity to introduce it here. I know many on here will be disgusted by the taught of it, but it would be a flamboyant tax and a tax of those that wanna pay it.

I think this is a good idea - in theory at least. It would be of limited value though given falling sales, worsening conditions and the fact that our boring plate system makes a play on words extremely difficult.

As for begrudgery - I think it'll be interesting to compare the threads that appear here over the next year or so with the messages that have been posted hitherto

...

Cyrus · 08-10-2008 11:38am

Biro wrote: »

Most people work just as hard as the next person, some people get lucky breaks, others don't. Reward the lucky with tax breaks? What a sham.

here is where you said it :rolleyes:

Cyrus · 08-10-2008 11:39am

pburns wrote: »

As for begrudgery - I think it'll be interesting to compare the threads that appear here over the next year or so with the messages that have been posted hitherto ...

in what sense?

jhegarty · 08-10-2008 11:39am

pburns wrote: »

I think the government lost a lot of tax/VRT revenue by mis-calculating the amount they would take from the new CO2-based system. I mean €150 road-tax for a new 5-series:eek:!

But isn't this exactly what the hippies green party wanted...

geoff29 · 08-10-2008 11:41am

pburns wrote: »

I think the government lost a lot of tax/VRT revenue... But maybe the government needed a few petrolhead 'consultants' to brief them on the pletora of low-CO2 models that were waiting in the wings to take advantage of the new system...

This is the problem when you have a lawyer in charge of finance. They. Don't. Know. Anything.

It's a joke.

Anyway, reading through, I think you all have valid points, just everyone's frustrated.

Zube · 08-10-2008 11:41am

E92 wrote: »

If people can afford something then good luck to them.

There are lots of people driving about in expensive machines that don't make me think "Good luck to them", they make me think "Look at that muppet!". This is not begrudgery, I like to see people in some expensive cars, it's just that I do dislike a lot of cars.

So, my proposal is that the Minister should ask me to rate each car based on whether I like it or not, and then he can set appropriate tax rates. This will be good news for the Fiat 500 and Maserati Granturismo, but bad for the 2 door Rolls and SSangyong Odius.

Biro · 08-10-2008 11:52am

steve06 wrote: »

God, there's so much wrong with your rant there!

Not really when you think about it.

steve06 wrote: »

no not all the time but most of the people with a lot of money made it themselves without help so why should the country lean on them?

The country should lean on everyone.

steve06 wrote: »

No, I didn't say that and I never mentioned VRT!

I didn't say you did.

steve06 wrote: »

Cowan wouldn't fit into a Ferrari

Very true!

steve06 wrote: »

But why should your tax's be so much higher than everyone else just because you treat yourself?

Because luxuries aren't necessary. They are luxuries! I like luxuries sometimes, but I know I don't need them, so I pay for them. I treat myself like everyone else treats themselves, but I've no problem paying for that. That's the attitude I'm talking about. I'd rather pay more tax on something I don't need if it meant that I'd pay less on something I do need. Or even if some person less well off, but trying just as hard to be sucessful is suffering.

steve06 wrote: »

I never once mention tax breaks did I?

Using it as an example, not saying you said it.

steve06 wrote: »

I never said that and I totally disagree with with that statement. I personally know the **** that nurses go through and they should be payed a hell of a lot more for what they do!

True, we're both singing off the same hymn sheet there then.

steve06 wrote: »

that was my point, but I think the wealthy people should be allowed enjoy their money, the lazy should be kicked out but they're not because they have it too easy. Wealthy people should be allowed have it easy without the country leaning on them because they've worked for it. (most of them)

I don't think they should have it easy, that's my point. I don't think they should be screwed, but I don't see why we should lay off them. It should be a fairly scaled system. If you're 20% better off than average, pay 20% more taxes. 60% better off then 60% more taxes. That's the point I'm trying to make. Not this attitude of "Well, he did work hard to make it to the top, so we should let him off with paying the same as someone who is only making average money, cause obviously they didn't work as hard". Tell that to some fisherman in Donegal who works harder than most people here and makes feck all cause the Government gave away our fishing industry to the Spanish etc.

steve06 wrote: »

I never said screw the working class, I said stop leaning on the wealthy... stand on your own feet and make a difference instead of waiting for someone else to fix things just because they have money!

Most people already do that.

steve06 wrote: »

If we were all to subscribe to your way of thinking then the rich should be tax'd to hell and the working class should get a lot more benefits - this discourages people from making money and so everyone becomes lazy so they can get stuff for free! It's the typical Irish attitude and if you made a lot of money tomorrow I can guarantee your attitude would change pretty quickly!

You're missing the point. I'm countering the arguement that the wealthy should get let off with things and let the rest of us pay cause we were too stupid to make money. We should make the necessary things easy to attain or use, and the unnecessary things not necessarily hard, but less easy.

Darragh29 · 08-10-2008 12:03pm

geoff29 wrote: »

This is the problem when you have a lawyer in charge of finance. They. Don't. Know. Anything.

It's a joke.

Anyway, reading through, I think you all have valid points, just everyone's frustrated.

Well some band of people in the budget are going to be hit hard and I reckon the motorist won't be getting out of it without being asked to bend over.

I'd say it'll be SUV drivers, they are game for the government, they are wide open to the whole, "we want to get people into smaller cars to save the environment", etc, etc, etc. When I see yuppie mummies dropping 2 kids off to school in a Range Rover though, I do feel that tax on those sort of trucks should be at least doubled, you don't need a 100K truck to bring two kids to school.

Biro · 08-10-2008 12:03pm

Cyrus wrote: »

here is where you said it :rolleyes:

SOME

smash · 08-10-2008 12:06pm

Biro wrote:

I don't think they should have it easy, that's my point. I don't think they should be screwed, but I don't see why we should lay off them. It should be a fairly scaled system. If you're 20% better off than average, pay 20% more taxes. 60% better off then 60% more taxes.

If someone earns 100k and they pay 40% then they come out with 60k
If someone earns 200K and they pay 60% then they come out with 80k - that's not right by any means, where's the justice in that or the incentive to work to get to that level?

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'd say it'll be SUV drivers, they are game for the government, they are wide open to the whole, "we want to get people into smaller cars to save the environment", etc, etc, etc. When I see yuppie mummies dropping 2 kids off to school in a Range Rover though, I do feel that tax on those sort of trucks should be at least doubled, you don't need a 100K truck to bring two kids to school.

This is the problem with the way things are run and it shows how ill informed people are... IT'S NOT ONLY SUV's that are being affected because they have high emissions! cars as low as 1.8 are being lumped on crazy tax bands almost 4 times more that they were on previously, and a 1.8 is a small car! If you double the tax for "SUVs" based on the emissions system you will not be punishing SUVs, your attitude would mean that some 1.8 cars will pay 4k tax.

Biro · 08-10-2008 12:30pm

steve06 wrote: »

If someone earns 100k and they pay 40% then they come out with 60k
If someone earns 200K and they pay 60% then they come out with 80k - that's not right by any means, where's the justice in that or the incentive to work to get to that level?

That's not what I meant. Paying 60% more on taxes doesn't equal paying 60% tax.

Budget 2009

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