Ireland V Cyprus

taidghbaby

luckyloyd i dont think anyone can accuse trapp of not knowing his stuff!!

however a blind man with no eyes could see that we were overun in the centre, especially in the second half!

trapp seems to be stubborn, which isnt a good trait in a manager!!

noodler

taidghbaby wrote: »

luckyloyd i dont think anyone can accuse trapp of not knowing his stuff!!

however a blind man with no eyes could see that we were overun in the centre, especially in the second half!

trapp seems to be stubborn, which isnt a good trait in a manager!!

Yeah, a better summary of my essays.

+1

LuckyLloyd

Most talented? If we are going to overachieve and do something worth talking about at the next world cup - it ain't going to be because of how much more talented we are relative to our opponents.

I just want to win. Don't care how. Neither did those teams.

event

noodler wrote: »

Their first one, saved by Given, the follow up which was put over and the on in the second half when we were completely cut open and were only saved by the player's miscontrol in the 6 yard box. Finally, the one where the right side of our defence was ripped aprt as they sauntered through and set up for Dunne to Block. Now I hope you are taking note but theres two moments where we were ripped apart by the Cypriots and another two chances which came from our own mistakes.

no no, i meant the ones that were better than the chances we had, like you said. Cos i dont think they are better chances that mcgeadys one, the one that was knocked over the bar, duffs and doyles and the goal. 3 of ours were actually on target, one of theirs.
So how are they better chances than ours, when only one brought a save from the keeper?
We had the better chances and we put ours away. Thats how you win football games. They deserved nothing, the had drew one good save from our keeper. We scored, and took 2 very good saves from the keeper, and had two chances just over. They had all the possession but so what?Possesion doesnt win games, goals do
perhaps you should keep some of those notes, as you so condacendingly put it

noodler wrote:

You love to sum things up in one line don't you? Lets delve a little deeper shall we? If we had our best team available on the pitch and if our midfield had been in existance then winning would have been good enough despite being totally dominated at home by much lower seeds for huge chunks of the second half. However we were dominated as a result of stubborn team selection (if Whelan or Gibson were on fire for their clubs then maybe their inclusion would be more justified at the expense of the more talented Reid).

i really dont get what you are even saying there, so ill leave it

noodler wrote:

If Given doesn't make that point blank save then they score. If Dunne doesn't make that block then they score. We played poorly even with two or three excelling, what are you saying? That these players playing worse may NOT have affected the outcome? Tell me your theory on how the result would not have been in doubt had these three players not excelled?

If, if, if........

if dunne hadnt made the block yer man might have struck it wide, hit the post, scored, given could have saved. you dont know, and neither do i so there is no point talking about that.
maybe we would have lost IF those 3 players werent on form, but they were, so whats the point giving out about it?

CiaranC

Did Greece and South Korea play reserve team footballers in the centre when there were better players on the bench?

Daysha

CiaranC wrote: »

Did Greece and South Korea play reserve team footballers in the centre when there were better players on the bench?

No, but we have a better manager than the two of those teams ever had.

noodler

event wrote: »

no no, i meant the ones that were better than the chances we had, like you said. Cos i dont think they are better chances that mcgeadys one, the one that was knocked over the bar, duffs and doyles and the goal. 3 of ours were actually on target, one of theirs.
So how are they better chances than ours, when only one brought a save from the keeper?
We had the better chances and we put ours away. Thats how you win football games. They deserved nothing, the had drew one good save from our keeper. We scored, and took 2 very good saves from the keeper, and had two chances just over. They had all the possession but so what?Possesion doesnt win games, goals do
perhaps you should keep some of those notes, as you so condacendingly put it



i really dont get what you are even saying there, so ill leave it




If, if, if........

if dunne hadnt made the block yer man might have struck it wide, hit the post, scored, given could have saved. you dont know, and neither do i so there is no point talking about that.
maybe we would have lost IF those 3 players werent on form, but they were, so whats the point giving out about it?

Rinse and repeating I see.

You'd make a terrible football manager or player.

When you play poorly in a football match and still win it shouldn't deflect from what needs to be changed for the next game. The same flaws in the performance would have been there had Cyprus scored late on.

LuckyLloyd

CiaranC wrote: »

Did Greece and South Korea play reserve team footballers in the centre when there were better players on the bench?

No idea. I know they played to a specific system and relied on tactics and hard work to win though.

luckylucky

deise59 wrote: »

No, but we have a better manager than the two of those teams ever had.

?

Not sure if you are joking or not!?. If not... I really don't know who's the better manager but Guus Hiddink would surely be considered a world class manager.

Daysha

luckylucky wrote: »

?

Not sure if you are joking or not!?. If not... I really don't know who's the better manager but Guus Hiddink would surely be considered a world class manager.

I never said he wasn't.

ShooterSF

Was at the game myself. First time in croker

Great debate here. Personally I like Reid though he's no world beater. I can also understand from watching England that having your best 11 individuals on a pitch does not always make a good team.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is we've yet to see how Trap handles us falling behind or struggling to break down a team at home. Maybe then we'd see a bit more of an attacking minded player like Reid.

He does things differently thats for sure but we're in a great position at the minute.

On a side note from watching the match without commentary Kilbane goes for some serious walks into the middle and doesnt get tight enough on his man when he has the ball. Though maybe he's out of position.

McGeady is the most frustrating player to watch great sparks of talent. Brilliance of inconsistency.
If I could take his confidenc on the ball and give it to Duff it could be special

luckylucky

deise59 wrote: »

I never said he wasn't.

So Traps must be Intergalactic class then if he is so clearly better than Hiddink

redout

luckylucky wrote: »

?

Not sure if you are joking or not!?. If not... I really don't know who's the better manager but Guus Hiddink would surely be considered a world class manager.

Hiddink is a **** manager. Won European cup 20 years ago that is his lot. Not won anything as a coach except in his own country and lets face it dutch football is rather poor. He has gotten some good results with Korea and Russia but as I said never won a thing. Dont mind what anyone tells you, football is all about winning trophies and that guy has not. He is over hyped.

luckylucky

redout wrote: »

Hiddink is a **** manager. Won European cup 20 years ago that is his lot. Not won anything as a coach except in his own country and lets face it dutch football is rather poor. He has gotten some good results with Korea and Russia but as I said never won a thing. Dont mind what anyone tells you, football is all about winning trophies and that guy has not. He is over hyped.

In danger of getting into another pointless debate and I can't be arsed. So i'll just say that I would totally disagree that hiddink is a sh1t(if that what your **** meant) manager and I would also disagree with some of your analogies.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

Would love to see this team:

---

Given

Finnan - Dunne - O'Shea - Delaney

McGeady - S.Reid - Ireland - Duff

---

Keane - Doyle

SUB 1 = C.Doyle/Kenny
SUB 2 = Kilbane
SUB 3 = S.Kelly
SUB 4 = McShane
SUB 5 = A. Reid
SUB 6 = Hunt
SUB 7 = Murphy

With fringe players like Owen Garvan, Chris McCann, Liam Lawrence, Rory Delap, James McCarthy and John Joe O'Toole.

event

noodler wrote: »

Rinse and repeating I see.

You'd make a terrible football manager or player.

When you play poorly in a football match and still win it shouldn't deflect from what needs to be changed for the next game. The same flaws in the performance would have been there had Cyprus scored late on.

brilliant, personal insults when you cant answer, i thought as much

btw, i never said things didnt need to be changed for the next game, but you seem to read what you wish anyway.

best of luck

eirebhoy

zAbbo wrote: »

Andy Reid is not 10 times better than Whelen or Gibson at playing a holding CM role.

Why should Trap have changed his game plan to accommodate Reid when we were 1-0 and Cyprus didn't look to create anything through the centre, a few balls over the top which Dunne could eat up all day long.

The only time they looked dangerous is when we played it loose and lost it down the flanks, and their full backs tried to overlap, but Duff and McGeady were very impressive with tracking back.

Gibson and Whelen may not have got on the ball as much as we'd like a CM pairing to do, but with their limited ability and experience - they kept things relatively quiet through the middle, something which I doubt Andy Reid has the work rate and discipline to achieve.

Cyprus still created 2 or 3 fantastic chances which they really should have scored from. With Andy Reid on the pitch we wouldn't be required to defend as much because we'd have a lot more of the ball.

We should be dominating games like this. Cyprus are a decent team but Celtic play decent teams all the time at home. We used to be like Celtic at home in Europe and only a couple of teams have finished the game with more possession. Even after the crisis in Cyprus we got back to Dublin and had the better of the play against the Czechs. They were happy with a point. I don't want to lose that. It's all well and good sitting back on a lead with 40 minutes left against Spain, Holland, Italy or the best of them but not Cyprus.

Anyway, that's Traps way but if we had Andy or Steven Reid in midfield Cyprus wouldn't have dominated possession like they did in the 2nd half imo.

redout

To respond to what you said about Trapp Yes he is in a totally different class to Hiddink look at the guys record for christ sake. The guy has won then lot and managed teams in the best league during his career and got results. Hiddink gave that a go in Real Madrid and won nothing ?

SantryRed

Trappatoni's system is set up to win one nil.

Put in Andy Reid, he jeopardises the system because he's lazy. It's as simple as that.

luckylucky

redout wrote: »

To respond to what you said about Trapp Yes he is in a totally different class to Hiddink look at the guys record for christ sake. The guy has won then lot and managed teams in the best league during his career and got results. Hiddink gave that a go in Real Madrid and won nothing ?

Let's make it clear I'm not saying that Hiddink is better than Traps. FWIW though I think you might have a lot of Koreans and Russians disagreeing with you. I know the Russians got money to throw around these days but surely he's not one of the most highly paid managers in the world for nothing or so I would have thought.

Anyway though I could say a lot more I've said more than I even meant.. the whole Traps vs Hiddink is a whole other debate and doesn't belong on this thread I wouldn't have thought. If you want to start a new one on hijm feel free, can't guarantee Ill get involved but I probably will

IRISHSPORTSGUY

For anyone who watches Andy Reid and Sunderland regularly (like me a Sunderland supporter) you will see he can do his share of graft defensively and he is not just a creative player. RTE even showed a few clips of him against Arsenal before the match to highlight this.

We NEED Premier League quality players like him and not dross like Gibson (who produced one of the poorest performanced I've ever seen from an Ireland player) and Whelan who was slightly better but he is not international class either and can't even break into the Stoke first team ahead of Rory Delap who isn't even called up ffs!

And I can't believe for the first time ever, I wanted Liam Miller to come on in an international match! Sunderland want to move to the "next level" as Keane says, so to speak (i.e mid-table) and Miller has made just one start so far this season (whereas he was a regular last season) and is more a relegation-zone level player but he is a streets ahead of Whelan and Gibson.

eirebhoy

SantryRed wrote: »

Put in Andy Reid, he jeopardises the system because he's lazy. It's as simple as that.

Because he's big he's lazy? He said himself the Prozone stats are well above average. Did you see him against Arsenal? He was required to do a lot of defending against them and was far from lazy.

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

We NEED Premier League quality players like him and not dross like Gibson (who produced one of the poorest performanced I've ever seen from an Ireland player) and Whelan who was slightly better but he is not international class either and can't even break into the Stoke first team ahead of Rory Delap who isn't even called up ffs!

Last night probably showed why Whelan isn't in the Stoke team. He might just need to play with good players. Steven Reid the playmaker seems to bring out the best in him.

gosplan

I think it's clear at this stage that Trappatoni wants two stoppers in midfield and is happy to leave the attacking up to the wingers and forwards.

A.Reid simply doesn't suit that plan.

Part of the problem people have with this is that following the last few years of poor performances, Ireland fans now become terrified any time our team is defending. Put simply, any time we've recently looked conceding, we have. I think that's changed now and I think that Trapp's style is to welcome pressure and cope well with it.

Whatever you say about possession last night, the Cypriots had two good chances, one due to a defensive mistake in the first half and one due to decent attacking in the second.

We created far more chances on goal then they did and I've no idea where this 'Shay Given played his usual blinder' stuff being spouted in the press today came from - they guy barely had a thing to do bar make one early save and collect a few crosses.

We're handling pressure very well these days, we're not giving up chances and we're never chasing back frantically to catch players - note the lack of yellow cards. That's Trappatoni's system - it uses two defensive midfielders and if he thinks it can't bend to accommodate A.Reid, who isn't a defensive midfielder, then I'll believe him.

gosplan

eirebhoy wrote: »

Because he's big he's lazy? He said himself the Prozone stats are well above average.

I think he said that his prozone stats say that he covers the most ground in a game. I'm not the one calling him lazy but I don't think it's enough to simply say that he runs a lot. That alone does not mean that he has defensive qualities.

Also this exact stat would be amplified is he had to chase back after getting forward - something Trappatoni clearly doesn't want his central midfielders to do.

gosplan

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

For anyone who watches Andy Reid and Sunderland regularly (like me a Sunderland supporter) you will see he can do his share of graft defensively and he is not just a creative player. RTE even showed a few clips of him against Arsenal before the match to highlight this.

I think they showed about three clips of tackles - really doesn't say much either way to be honest.

Also the one they really highlighted was where he chased back from a forward position. Neither Whelan or Gibson got forward much last night and they were clearly under instructions not to.

On a similar point, after the match Dunphy showed a series of clips from the game which he claimed showed that the Irish team hadn't been coached well at all. I mean seriously??? He just picks whatever clips suit his rant of the day. The man used to be slightly entertaining but he's officially now a total tool.

eirebhoy

gosplan wrote: »

Also this exact stat would be amplified is he had to chase back after getting forward - something Trappatoni clearly doesn't want his central midfielders to do.

Pirlo, Carrick, etc. would usually run more than most on the pitch and they don't get forward much. Reid is intelligent enough to follow instructions. If Trap wants him to sit in he'll sit in. S.Reid is playing his role superbly. Not afraid to move outside the boundaries. He's using his intelligence which Andy obviously has a lot of too.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

gosplan wrote: »

I think they showed about three clips of tackles - really doesn't say much either way to be honest.

Also the one they really highlighted was where he chased back from a forward position. Neither Whelan or Gibson got forward much last night and they were clearly under instructions not to.

On a similar point, after the match Dunphy showed a series of clips from the game which he claimed showed that the Irish team hadn't been coached well at all. I mean seriously??? He just picks whatever clips suit his rant of the day. The man used to be slightly entertaining but he's officially now a total tool.

There were just a few some instances of his defensive play, it is an aspect of his game that is quite underrated. If you watch Sunderland regularly, like I do, maybe then you would understand.

I get the impression you're a happy clapper and Trapattoni can do no wrong in your mind.

Boggles

gosplan wrote: »

On a similar point, after the match Dunphy showed a series of clips from the game which he claimed showed that the Irish team hadn't been coached well at all. I mean seriously??? He just picks whatever clips suit his rant of the day. The man used to be slightly entertaining but he's officially now a total tool.

Although he was ranting, he actually had a point. There was no evident homework done on any of Irelands set pieces, corners and freekicks were dreadful.

To highlight the point, one of the main reasons Villa finished as high as they did last season was because of their set pieces.

Pigman II

1988. Jack Charlton makes it clear that skillful star player Liam Brady doesn't figure in his plans. Public outcry. Ireland play rubbish football. Ireland win matches.

2008. Giovani Trappatoni makes it clear that skillful star player Andy Reid doesn't figure in his plans. Public outcry. Ireland play rubbish football. Ireland win matches.

Go figure.

All I'll say is I'm glad most of you armchair experts don't have any say in the selection of this team.

BaZmO*

And how ironic that Brady is part of the management set up this time

shane86

Last night.

The crowd.

WTF?!?

I was in Davin upper. Seemed to be pockets of energy around the place (stand to my right had a fair few songs and chants belting) but absoloutely bollix all from my end. The most enthusiastic supporter in ours was some lad of about 8, the rest of the crowd were largely dead, only rising with a roar during the runs around the 70-80 minute mark, or disgruntled roars at bad reffing. Were a few gangs trying to get some chants etc going but apart from the occasional "clapclapclapclap Ireland!" and Stand Up for the Boys in Green (which for some reason Ive never been into) there was **** all encouragement for the lads on field. Even the Fields of Athenry didnt get a belt. Im glad Ive seen us play in such a world class stadium before we have to vacate but tbh there is usually more atmosphere in my local pub or in my own ****ing sitting room for an Ireland match than there was in my particular stand. Dare I say it Croker needs the bar open to get these people out of their shells (IIRC is drink banned at internationals across Europe?)

Severe amount of little scobie fuuckers about the place and all , god knows how we dont have violence at internationals, more wee schwars about than a UFC fight night.

As for the match, got the 3 points, not the most attractive football ever but if it gets us to SA who cares for now. McShane is an awful liability and is simply not up to the task. The people were right on this one, whatever Trap saw in him in training just did not show itself on field.

redout wrote: »

Hiddink is a **** manager. Won European cup 20 years ago that is his lot. Not won anything as a coach except in his own country and lets face it dutch football is rather poor. He has gotten some good results with Korea and Russia but as I said never won a thing. Dont mind what anyone tells you, football is all about winning trophies and that guy has not. He is over hyped.

lol.

estebancambias

Pigman, what about

2002: Mick McCarthy: Ireland play class free flowing one touch football. They win matches.

I'm a Trap supporter but there is no exuse for letting that midfield problem persist last night.

BaZmO*

shane86 wrote: »

Severe amount of little scobie fuuckers about the place and all , god knows how we dont have violence at internationals, more wee schwars about than a UFC fight night.

There has been trouble at nearly every Ireland match I've been to in Croker (and I've been to them all) and it's always in the same place too, the Lower Davin over beside the Cusack, and last night was no exception. A couple of little knackers thumping lumps out of each other. :rolleyes: I suppose trying to start a Mexican Wave wasn't exciting enough for them.

PHB

Gibson I thought did well enough for his age and experience. Think he can make it as a premiership player.

Shocking performance. Ultimately, a passing game starts with the full backs wanting the ball all the time, and McShane was terrible, terrible on the ball.

Without a strong midfield to take control, it was always gona be ****e.
But we scored early, no need to bring on Reid.

This was a tactical victory. Nothing more. We did enough to win. We rode some luck, not a huge amount, and won. We coulda scored more, but we didn't. I'll happily take it.

gosplan

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

There were just a few some instances of his defensive play, it is an aspect of his game that is quite underrated. If you watch Sunderland regularly, like I do, maybe then you would understand.

I get the impression you're a happy clapper and Trapattoni can do no wrong in your mind.

LOL, yeah and you're a Sunderland fan(or someone who goes out of their way to watch them) arguing for your player to be in the national team. I get the impression that Andy Reid can perhaps do no wrong?

Anyway, I just don't think that Andy Reid should play as a defensive midfielder.

Maybe if I watched Sunderland regularly I'd see that he could but if memory serves, I don't think he's played there for them yet. You can perhaps prove me wrong?

Xavi6

redout wrote: »

Hiddink is a **** manager.

I've seen some shite posted in this forum but that is a serious contender for the biggest steaming pile ever.

Pighead

Pigman II wrote: »

1988. Jack Charlton makes it clear that skillful star player Liam Brady doesn't figure in his plans. Public outcry. Ireland play rubbish football. Ireland win matches.

2008. Giovani Trappatoni makes it clear that skillful star player Andy Reid doesn't figure in his plans. Public outcry. Ireland play rubbish football. Ireland win matches.

Go figure.

All I'll say is I'm glad most of you armchair experts don't have any say in the selection of this team.

Ah c'mon Pigman II. That's way too simplistic an argument. You're not comparing like with like.

Big Jack dropped Brady but still had a midfield of Whelan, Sheedy/McGrath. Traps has dropped Reid in favour of a midfield combo of Gibson(Man Utd Reserve) Whelan (Stoke substitute)

The two scenarios don't compare.

ongarite

Stephen Reid out for the rest of the season with knee injury. The injury curse strikes again.

Xavi6

FFS

ongarite

Needs surgery on his knee, out for 6-7 months. Thats gonna have to change Trap's plan for midfield for the 2 crucial games in early '08.

Boggles

Fúckíng Tragedy, but not one bit surprised.

Lets hope Whelan can get his place back at Stoke, or at the very least loaned out to someone, ditto Gibson.

Im_No_Superman

ongarite wrote: »

Needs surgery on his knee, out for 6-7 months. Thats gonna have to change Trap's plan for midfield for the 2 crucial games in early '08.

FFS, poor guy, Irelands very own Saha. Very dissapointing news.

Xavi6

Probably big enough news to warrant its own thread tbh

zAbbo

Career threatening?

That's a horrible series of injuries in fairness.

Prufrock

shane86 wrote: »

Last night.

The crowd.

WTF?!?

I was in Davin upper. Seemed to be pockets of energy around the place (stand to my right had a fair few songs and chants belting) but absoloutely bollix all from my end. The most enthusiastic supporter in ours was some lad of about 8, the rest of the crowd were largely dead, only rising with a roar during the runs around the 70-80 minute mark, or disgruntled roars at bad reffing. Were a few gangs trying to get some chants etc going but apart from the occasional "clapclapclapclap Ireland!" and Stand Up for the Boys in Green (which for some reason Ive never been into) there was **** all encouragement for the lads on field. Even the Fields of Athenry didnt get a belt. Im glad Ive seen us play in such a world class stadium before we have to vacate but tbh there is usually more atmosphere in my local pub or in my own ****ing sitting room for an Ireland match than there was in my particular stand. Dare I say it Croker needs the bar open to get these people out of their shells (IIRC is drink banned at internationals across Europe?)

lol.

I noticed this too. I was in Hogan upper and the place was dead. These two lads in particular in front of me didn't do anything for the whole first half. Then one of them turned to me and in broken English asked me how many people the stadium holds. :rolleyes:

Is atmosphere a problem in Croke Park?

Töpher

Prufrock wrote: »

Is atmosphere a problem in Croke Park?

Was at the match myself, I put the poor atmosphere down to the fans, not the stadium (other than the having to sit down bit).

Sherifu

ongarite wrote: »

Needs surgery on his knee, out for 6-7 months. Thats gonna have to change Trap's plan for midfield for the 2 crucial games in early '08.

Ah ****e.

Mushy

Prufrock wrote: »

Is atmosphere a problem in Croke Park?

For soccer and rugby I can see it being a problem due to the pitch being that bit further away. Also maybe there aren't enough people overly bothered about it(the match), so would easily detract from atmosphere quickly. Maybe Lansdowne being kept to smaller venue will prove more beneficial in this way.

BaZmO*

Lansdowne for competitive matches always had a fantastic atmosphere (obviously more quiet for friendlies) but the atmosphere since moving to Croker has been fairly sh1t. I think it's a cross between the pitch being enormous relative to the size of the actual playing area and a lot of people going to the matches on freebies and therefore not that ársed about the match.

x in the city

ummmm


Does anyone else worry about the current team being ass whipped by the big guns such as Holland, Spain, Germany, Italy et al?

We give the ball away far too much and our midfeild will be destroyed by the big boys.

We are well placed in the group but wait until we play a big team.