Breeding question

AmyG

Hope someone can help me..

Have a one year old Samoyed bitch and wish to breed her at least once before she gets the snip.
But have never gone down this route before. can anyone please tell me how do i know she in heat? when would be the best age? and how or where do i get a male for stud, as the male i had in mind is being sold so unable to use him in the future..

kerrysgold

Why are you breeding her, or are you just breeding her for the sake of it?

Has she been health tested?
Has she been shown?
Is she a wonderful example of her breed?

AmyG

kerrysgold wrote: »

Why are you breeding her, or are you just breeding her for the sake of it?

Has she been health tested?
Has she been shown?
Is she a wonderful example of her breed?

As i said above im brand new to the whole situation. Only advice ive had was vet recommendation to say she be ideal to breed... And she is prefect example of her breed...

i want her to have one litter before i get her spayed

carwash_2006

You need to do a lot of research. There are one or two on here that know something about breeding, but you should talk to as many people as you can.

She will need to be at least 2 before you breed her. She should be health tested for any specific breed problems before you breed her, you need to find out what these are.

You will need to have plenty of time around the time when she is due, you cannot go off to work leaving her alone if she is due pups in the next few days, she will need to be babysat by someone who knows what to look for.

You must prepare yourself that things go wrong with breeding, there was a chap on here earlier this year looking for advice about breeding, his bitch had her pups recently, I think 4 survived? I'm not sure if it was even that many, also I think he nearly lost the bitch too? But it is certainly a possibility.

Once you have done your research and are sure that you can offer all the veterinary care, special feeding and other uncertainties of breeding, then you can go ahead and start researching suitable sires for the pups.

Beth

Since no one has posted -

A one year old bitch is very young to be bred from. Would you be willing to wait a while until she's older, possibly around 2? First and second heats aren't recommended, due to immature eggs, its the third heat that would be better - when the bitch herself is after maturing and is no longer a puppy herself.
That would also give you the time to get the health tests done, if you havent already done them. You'd have to contact your vet about getting them done, if you don't have them done, and don't know where to go. Vets will give you all the info on the tests you need to do, or you could search online and see which tests should be done on Sammy's and then ask your vet if he/she can carry them out, and what the costs involved would be.

I'm curious to know why you want to breed her once before she's spayed. If its because of bitches needing to have one litter before hand, thats a myth. They don't need a litter before they're spayed at all, in case you didn't realise that it was a myth.

Where to get a stud dog -
Is she IKC registered?
Do you show her?
Is she doing well?

If you show your Samoyed, and she is doing well in shows, then you could keep your eye out for a Samoyed dog that is winning (no younger than 2 yrs old is advised). Speak with the owner and see how well the dog would have done throughout his career, check if there are health tests done, and you could strike up a deal to have him used for stud for your bitch. Sometimes depending on the stud owner, you would only pay a stud fee, or you might pay a reduced stud fee and/or they would require a puppy from the litter. A dog that is winning would be considered a good example of the breed, and once health/genetic tests are done then it would be better than finding an ad in a newspaper.

Puppies from two champions (or two dogs that are doing well so far in their careers) that have been properly tested, should be pretty close to the breed standard and should be relatively free of any defects that could cost you or future owners huge amounts in vet bills.

This is the breed standard for the UK Samoyeds Breed Standard

How you'd know she's in heat -
She may swell around her vulva. It can occur the week before or the day before. She might also start to lick/clean herself down there a lot. She will also have a distinctive smell - sometimes humans can smell it, sometimes not. But dogs can so do not let her out of your sight for a minute if there's a possibility of an intact dog jumping a wall or being on the other side of a fence, as it only take a minute of taking your eyes off her and they can mate through the fence. You might also get some visitors that would sit outside your front door, if she's a house dog. If she's a garden dog, then make sure there is no possibility of any dog getting near her by having a secure garden. Try to find another way of exercising her while she's in heat as well as walking will only draw trouble.

She might also have a bloody coloured discharge, so if she's a house dog, be prepared for spotting on your floors. Bitches are usually very good at keeping themselves clean at this time but you might still end up with spotting. By the time she's ready to mate, the discharge will have changed colour to a more yellowish colour/less blood coloured. She can also begin to bump her rear against your leg because now is the time when she will be fertile and willing to stand for the male to mount her. If she's a strong dog, watch out for this Her teats/nipples may also become more noticeable.

There's an interesting bit of reading here To breed or not to breed. Have a read of the whole lot. and then see if you are ready/able/willing or whether you're not prepared to put your dog through it.

Remember, breeding isnt plain sailing and is very costly. There is also a chance, slim chance that you could lose your own dog due to complications with a pregnancy.

Proper food for Mammy and proper materials for puppies can all add up. Things like whelping boxes, supplements, tests, examinations, worming for the puppies can make it really expensive for anyone breeding a bitch. What if the dogs dont tie - will you fork our for artificial insemination? what if she cannot deliver properly - will you pay for a section and all the costs that come with it?

What if Mammy wont take to the puppies? are you prepared to take time off work (if you work) and hand rear the puppies with special formula from the vets or go to the trouble of finding a foster mum?

Breeding responsibly means that you would do all the tests and only use a stud that has had the tests too, that you would provide everything the bitch needs at all times including postnatal care, when the puppies are born that you would take the time to start socialising them and care for them as well as worming them as they need regular worming when they're young.

A responsible breeder will take back a puppy if for any reason the new owners cannot keep them - can you afford to take them all back if all the owners needed you to? Do you have the space, time and energy to do it?

Edit - oops sorry, Carwash and Kerrysgold had replied while i was typing

kerrysgold

Excellent post Beth. I hope the OP realises what a massive responsibility and commitment breeding her dog will be. and definetly not cheap either so make sure if you do decide to breed that you have sufficient funds to cover any vet bills etc.

SuzyS1972

AmyG wrote: »

Hope someone can help me..

Have a one year old Samoyed bitch and wish to breed her at least once before she gets the snip.
But have never gone down this route before. can anyone please tell me how do i know she in heat? when would be the best age? and how or where do i get a male for stud, as the male i had in mind is being sold so unable to use him in the future..

If you dont know the answers to these basic questions I'd leave breeding to people who KNOW about their dogs.
Is your vet a breed judge ?

Whispered

I think you need to think very hard about breeding your bitch. It's not a clear cut procedure at all. Please, please take the advice you're given by people here seriously. There has been a thread recently where someone came on looking for advice on breeding, he had no experience either. He was advised not to go ahead. A new thread started recently where this person had lost all but 4 of the pups.

TBH it takes a very irresponsible vet to recommend anybody breed their dog. Especially at a year old.

andreac

Theres absolutely no need to take a litter from a bitch before you get her spayed, why people feel the need to do this is beyond me.
Just because a dog looks nice does not mean its a good specimen for breeding.

A friend of mine has a samoyed and she was showing him as a pup, now he was bought from a good breeder but it turned out his ears never came up, which a samoyeds should, so now, she cant show him or use him for stud, so not all well bred dogs are suitable for breeding.

The only reason a dog should be bred from if its a really good specimen of the breed and the only way you will know that is by showing it in the ring and being judged by experts.

You will know when shes in heat, esp the fact she is a white dog, she will prob have a little change in behaviour and will be a swollen behind too. Be very very careful that she doesnt get anywhere near a dog when shes in heat and that no dog can get into her in the garden as they will come from miles to get to a bitch in heat.

Theres so much involved in breeding a bitch and to be honest unless you really know what you are doing id get her spayed, best time is usually around 3 months after her first heat.

MsFifers

andreac wrote: »

The only reason a dog should be bred from if its a really good specimen of the breed and the only way you will know that is by showing it in the ring and being judged by experts.

Actually, if you watched the recent BBC documentary, you will have learned that show judges are not the best judges of the health of a show dog. They gave plenty of examples of so called "experts" awarding prizes to unhealthy dogs, and breeders of these dogs with congenital defects going on to breed them - charging a fortune because they were show winners.

A proper health check by a vet who is expert in the area is the only way to know and who will do xrays and all kinds of tests.

OP - the general advice is that this isn't an area for novices and you would be best to get your girlie spayed.

Glowing

AmyG, what are your reasons for wanting to breed your bitch?

Is it for the health of the animal? - There is no proof that breeding the bitch before having her spayed offers any advantages

Is it for financial gain? - You will very likely loose some money, and that is assuming there are no serious health issues, no out of the ordinary vetinerary fees like c-section, you'll have to pay for all vacinations and health checks, worming, flee treatments. Oh, and if the bitch doesn't take to the pups, can you take weeks off work to stay at home and hand rear them? Feeding them every 4 hours through the nights? It would also be irresponsible of you to breed her if you haven't had all the checks for common genetic issues (which will also cost a fortune).

If is this just a spur of the moment plan, then I REALLY think you need to reconsider. If you can't even tell when your bitch is in heat, then it's fairly clear (not in a bad way) that you don't know anything about breeding. There is a lot more too it than meets the eye.

AmyG

I seem to be getting more abuse of ye than advice to be honest which i did not expect.

I am a dog lover and have owned dogs all my life. I have raised pups that were left motherless after my neighbours bitch died during birth. So i know all about hard work.

And Suzy yes i admit i DON'T KNOW these basic things as im researching now (hence ask for advice) and reading books and member of a samoyed club and kennel club for your information. But as i am a first time owner of a samoyed bitch i don't want to take chances breeding her. And i have planned on breeding her in the future not just spur of the moment decision. In the next year or two i will have the time and fiances to look after her and wish to do it well.
I simply asked my vet if she was a healthy enough and make sure she didnt have hip desplexia as my other sammy did unfortunitly and could not breed him, with her..


So im sorry for asking for your advice but EVERYONE has to start from stratch at some stage...

MsFifers

In fairness, I don't think there is any abuse in any of the above posts - a lot of discouragement yes, but abuse no.

The problem is - and I'm sure you know this - there are far too many people who just want to make a quick buck out of breeding their dog and aren't concerned about animal welfare.

Its good you have given a bit more background info about yourself. I think you sound like you are trying to educate yourself to do it responsibly so hopefully Beth's post and the books you are reading will help you along the way.

ISDW

I can't see any abuse, people have given you good advice I think. Your bitch is 1 year old now, when was she hip scored? She shouldn't have been done before her 1st birthday. Different breeds have different scores, so have you checked her score against the Samoyed average?

I am slightly confused though, you said in your opening post that the male that you wanted to use as a stud dog was being sold, but now you've said your male has hyp dysplasia, so you cannot use him. Sorry if I'm misreading it, I am easily confused:D

stevoman

AmyG wrote: »

I seem to be getting more abuse of ye than advice to be honest which i did not expect.

I am a dog lover and have owned dogs all my life. I have raised pups that were left motherless after my neighbours bitch died during birth. So i know all about hard work.

And Suzy yes i admit i DON'T KNOW these basic things as im researching now (hence ask for advice) and reading books and member of a samoyed club and kennel club for your information. But as i am a first time owner of a samoyed bitch i don't want to take chances breeding her. And i have planned on breeding her in the future not just spur of the moment decision. In the next year or two i will have the time and fiances to look after her and wish to do it well.
I simply asked my vet if she was a healthy enough and make sure she didnt have hip desplexia as my other sammy did unfortunitly and could not breed him, with her..


So im sorry for asking for your advice but EVERYONE has to start from stratch at some stage...

AmyG i totally agree with you. Once on this forum i inquired about my bitch coming into season as she took off one day training her out in the fields and i was concerned that she may be getting to the stage that she wanted to take off a little and getting to her "teen life stage" and i branded a irresponsible dog owner for not having her on a leash although she a gundog being trained in the middle of a field.

The second time i enquired about breeding and i was called a "moron" and had to report the post and i got no advice from anyone, only jabs about making profit and its not fair on the dog.

For whatever reasons when breeding is even mentioned around here you get a lot of negative responses, instead of information you are looking for. There are people that will give genuine responses and good advice bit in my experience you will only end up more annoyed by other peoples responses that are on their high horses. So my best advice would be to try other forums and see if you get any better help there and get a concise book aswell and if you happen to know anyone that breeds, call around to them and sit and have a chat and learn what you can from first hand experience. that seems to be the best way to learn and also consult a vet if you thiink you need to and they will be helpful also.

Here's a book that may help , although i dont know if there is anything about breeding in it http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samoyeds-KW-Dog-Breed-Library/dp/0793810531/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223481607&sr=8-2

andreac

The reason we try to deter people from breeding their dogs "Just because i think i should" is because there are so many dogs out there in need of homes and people breeding unhealthy dogs and ending up with puppies that cant be sold.

People have it in their head that they need to let a bitch have a litter, which is complete nonsense, if the dog had the choice, i dont think they would agree with that. Its People that only want their bitch to have a litter which they think is the right thing to do, in fact thats the complete opposite. Putting a bitch in pup is very high risk and theres a big chance something will go wrong.

I know several experienced breeders that have all lost pups and their bitches from the result of a pregnancy or the birth going wrong.

Its not that we dont want people to breed, but we want them breeding for the right reasons and be aware of the risks involved, a lot of people that come on the site are clueless of the risks involved breeding a dog.

If your dog has all the relevent health checks thats involved for the breed and the dog is a good specimen,which can be discovered by going into the show ring, and youhave people interested in pups from your dog well then maybe you should consider it.It can be hard to sell pups so you should nearly have buyers for the pups before she even gives birth.

Glowing

I didn't give you any abuse

I think the problem might be that you gave very little information in your first post - if you explained your situation with more detail like you just did, people might have understood where you were coming from a bit better ....

I know where you're coming from Stevoman, but you have to agree that there *are* too many unwanted animals out there .... and you also have to agree that too many people go into breeding without thinking it through properly - which is probably why posters here want to say it as it is ....

stevoman

Glowing wrote: »

I know where you're coming from Stevoman, but you have to agree that there *are* too many unwanted animals out there .... and you also have to agree that too many people go into breeding without thinking it through properly - which is probably why posters here want to say it as it is ....

I agree there are unwanted dogs out there glowing, but i personally have found from this forum that there is a real moral high horse with some posters here (usually the ill informed ones, who just enjoy thinking they know better than others) and it is a real turn off to people who genuinally seek advice.

I bet if we used the search option and went back over every thread on this forum regarding breeding there is someone tellin somewhon off in each one.

granted there are unweanted pups in ireland that make there way to the pounds but i bet there are plenty of good pups that people buy and then dont take care of them either. if dogs dont breed then we wont have the dogs of the future either.

Personally i think a sticky should be put up on this forum regarding dog breeding offering advice, know how, and literature and pros and cons and a big fat warning also to posters that this is in fact an animal and pets forum and breeding is allowed and not illegal, but there are guidlines to stick to and responabilties to make sure you can live up to.

I couldnt beleive the responses i got when i said i wanted to breed my bitch next year, even though it was for all the right purposes.

Glowing

stevoman wrote: »

if dogs dont breed then we wont have the dogs of the future either.

Definitely, but these dogs shouldn't be bred by people who don't have a clue what they're doing ... why do you think issues like hip displasia etc are so prevalent?

I agree though there needs to be a little more 'diplomacy' from some of our posters.

AmyG

I agree that there are many unwanted dogs in ireland and its a shame but i just feel that people jump straight to the negitive...

As regards to checking her over, my ex partener owned the male, who at a young ages showed signs of hip displasia hence my fears and concerns of her, She is like my child, just want to do everything right. As i think its a shame poor breeding standards cause this on innocent dogs.

I just wanted advice as i told my family i wish to let her have a set before i spay her and one or two of my family wish to take a pup (im not selling them, just going to good homes) they will be ikc registered, not wanting to breed for profit, just sh is a good breed standard and beautiful nature,i know she would have good pups(obviously a novice point of view) but just needed advice.
Thank you to everyone for your FRIENDLY HELPFUL advice about do's/ donts and tips to check for etc..

andreac

Hi AmyG,

Can i just ask how you know she is of good breed standard? Have you had her hips scored yet?

I own a rottweiler who i show and hes a fab dog and doing really well in the ring and im already on my way to making him into a champion.

Im getting his hips scored soon, and if he has a high score i def wont be using him for stud. Ive already had enquiries about him for bitches but he was too young and also i didnt have his hips done.

So if he has a high score i def wont be using him for stud even if he does become a champion.

Toulouse

Also she'll have alot more than just one or two puppies what'll happened to the rest? Are you going to follow up on all these dogs to make sure they're neutered and therefore not in danger of ending up being a breeding machine or contributing to the huge dog problem we have in Ireland?

You seem to have your head screwed on but I don't think any of the reasons you've given are good enough reasons to breed.

stevoman

Toulouse wrote: »

Also she'll have alot more than just one or two puppies what'll happened to the rest? Are you going to follow up on all these dogs to make sure they're neutered and therefore not in danger of ending up being a breeding machine or contributing to the huge dog problem we have in Ireland?

In fairness the girl is looking for advice and tips, not questions being asked of her.

Toulouse

If asking a question makes someone think about something that they might have overlooked then I'll ask all the questions I please, thanks. No responsible breeder would have a problem being asked those kinds of questions as they would have already thought about that outcome.

stevoman

Toulouse wrote: »

If asking a question makes someone think about something that they might have overlooked then I'll ask all the questions I please, thanks. No responsible breeder would have a problem being asked those kinds of questions as they would have already thought about that outcome.

Yes but she asking for information, not questions. so far you failed to give any advice.

whitser

more "high horsery" again, not un common in these parts.

Sigma Force

Tbh if you want to breed your dog then yes a forum is handy for other peoples experiences but tbh the best person to talk to is other dog breeders ..would be up to you to weed out the good ones..and to talk to the vet etc.

Anyone thinking of breeding their animal their first port of call needs to be the vets, various books and then asking other people about their experiences. So that you have the facts before other people give advice because advice on forums can be conflicting and sometimes right and sometimes wrong.

Now Ireland is not exactly going to run out of dogs anytime soon..for sure.
People get on their high horses sometimes because they are so tired of seeing more and more unwanted dogs both mixed and pure breeds.
Also all you have to do is check out free ad papers to see how many people are asking crazy amounts for dogs and people with the same phone number breeding 3 or 4 different breeds etc.

Noone can stop you going ahead with breeding so if you do just take on board some of the tips here and research other sites for more information.

If not done already.

Have the dog vet checked, find out what common ailments this breed can suffer from and talk everything over with your vet.

Put money aside for future vet costs, check ups for when the dog is pregnant and for vaccinations and health checks etc for the pups.

Keep your dog on a healthy natural as possible diet, good excercise and in general good overall care which you probably are doing already.

Find out from the vet if there are any extra things you need to add to the diet etc.

Ensure you have a quiet room and space for a whelping box.
Extra newspapers and blankets and all the extra bits pups need as they are growing, keep money aside for collars, leads etc.

Find out just how many pups your dog could end up having, you might have to help the mum by helping to feed the pups.

Ensure before you breed that you have people that are interested in the pups, that they have or will be homechecked.

The thing is no matter how responsible you breed you can't gurantee the new owners will be they may want to breed the pups as well, so advise on neutering/spaying and also information should they want to breed, have them sign a legal document if possible to say they will not breed the dog until the dog is over 2 etc.

No reason why you can't breed your dog as long as it's done only when you are armed with all the information and are prepared for expected and unexpected things.

For the dog herself there is no reason why she herself needs to be breed. Some people breed because they are broody for pups themselves, if this is possibly the case then perhaps considering spaying her and getting another pup might no1. give your dog some company no2. you have another pup to fuss over and no3. cuts out the hassle and sometimes heartache of breeding.

At least you have asked for information some people would just go into breeding blindly.

looserock

AmyG wrote: »

Hope someone can help me..

Have a one year old Samoyed bitch and wish to breed her at least once before she gets the snip.
But have never gone down this route before. can anyone please tell me how do i know she in heat? when would be the best age? and how or where do i get a male for stud, as the male i had in mind is being sold so unable to use him in the future..

Hi Amy,

You will know she is in heat when she starts to have a bloody discharge from her vulva, she will also have swollen up around this area.

There is no exact schedule but around 10 into this she will start to lift her tail when touched above or around the vulva, she is now ready to mate.

It is advised to wait untill at least her 2nd season, her 3rd would be better.

The best place to find a stud would be at a dog show, dont be afraid to approach any of the owners, they will help you.

Hope I've helped, only thing I'll say is dont choose the best looking dog or the one that wins the most, health is more important than this, but most important is temperament.

Large dogs with bad temperaments could be bad for your health or someone elses.

Deelberne

Hi Amy,I've owned St Bernards for 9 or 10 years, had a litter last xmas. It's hard work believe me. Not trying to put you off, just make sure you go into it with your eyes wide open. Everyone else has mentioned about the amount of dogs in shelters etc etc so i'm not gonna preach that to you.Everybody does have to start somewhere. Try to get yourself a mentor - someone experienced in samoyeds and breeding them, maybe the breeder you got your bitch from, or the club may be able to put you in touch with someone.Get your bitch health tested, if hip scores are required find out what the breed average is for samoyeds, google BVA, you should get it on their site. UCD veterinary college is the best place for hip scores imo. Do your homework and be prepared for a lot of hard work. Go to a few shows, get talking to samoyed people, have a go at showing your bitch, it will give you a good idea of how she measures up to the breed standard. Your bitch could be the best looking samoyed there is but are her eyes the correct color, is her bite correct, can she move as a samoyed should move, has she got correct angulation, bone etc. You probably can't answer these questions. You'll find out those answers if you show her.A responsible breeder should always be prepared to take a pup back if need be. It's looking like i might have to take one of my pups back soon. He was bought as a show dog and didn't live up to expectations, i never guaranteed that he'd become a good show dog, nobody can at 6 or 8 weeks.. It's a grand i could put to better use and a headache i could well do without but it's my responsibility as his breeder. Just go into it with your eyes wide open, ask loads of questions, it's the only way you'll learn.BTW - i wouldn't breed before she's at least 2. do the health checks, do some shows, do your homework and get a mentor. Best of luck with her.