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Lisbon would take power from Ireland
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07-10-2008 7:44pm#1
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Seanie we had this debate many times in the past. While I never had a problem with QMV in Lisbon, overall we do loose influence. That will always happen with Expansion of the European Union in which I am very much in Favour of Expansion and accepting new Members. Sarkozy biggest supporter of Lisbon is Blocking expansion for 10 years even with Lisbon and then claims there will be no expansion without Lisbon.
No matter how you sugar coat it over, the reality is, there is no denying it, we do lose more influence with Lisbon.
Scofflaw: Thanks for you last post
It depends what way you look at it. More countries are joining so the rules would change and some will lose a little power, some will not.
It still doesn't change the fact that most things are reached by consensus and look how hard that is to get! (think the current economic turmoil)
Sorry for being short, but the same people who moaned about QMV, more powers etc. etc seem to be the ones moaning about how ineffectual the EU is.
It confuses the hell out of me!
I agree there are some stupid laws, we all know of ones, but our own Govt. and others can come up with them! (the provisional licence springs to mind)
Why concentrate on the negatives when there has been so much positive!Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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You argument was we do not lose more influence with Lisbon, I said we do.It depends what way you look at it. More countries are joining so the rules would change and some will lose a little power, some will not.
It still doesn't change the fact that most things are reached by consensus and look how hard that is to get! (think the current economic turmoil)
Sorry for being short, but the same people who moaned about QMV, more powers etc. etc seem to be the ones moaning about how ineffectual the EU is.
It confuses the hell out of me!
I agree there are some stupid laws, we all know of ones, but our own Govt. and others can come up with them! (the provisional licence springs to mind)
Why concentrate on the negatives when there has been so much positive!
Losing more Influence is a negative. The true question is can we handle that! Some people can and other can't. Lisbon does take more power away so does expansion. I not against Expansion, I love to see more countries Joining. NICE have Rules on QMV on expansion. Certain European Leaders do not like the NICE Rules after agreeing to them.
My biggest problem is that the EU Commission is an unelected body. It does not come from the EU Parliament, like many Ministers from their National Parliaments, and yet they are saying that Lisbon is more democratic which is not, it only show an appearance of democracy, by letting National parliaments know future EU legislation. It allows them talk about it but reality they have little influence and can be ignored.
The EU Commissioners are EU civil Servants and can only representative the EU as a whole not National Interest. They are bureaucrats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_CommissionerCommissioner Oath wrote:Having been appointed as a member of the Commission of the European Communities by the Council of the European Union, after the vote of approval by the European Parliament, I do solemnly undertake: to be completely independent in the performance of my duties, in the general interest of the Communities; in the performance of these duties, neither to seek nor to take instructions from any government or from any other body; to refrain from any action incompatible with my duties. I formally note the undertaking of each Member State to respect this principle and not to seek to influence members of the Commission in the performance of their tasks.
I further undertake to respect, both during and after my term of office, the obligations arising there from and in particular, the duty to behave with integrity and discretion as regards the acceptance after I have ceased to hold office of certain appointments or benefits.
Most People Do not know Rules and regulation of the EU Commissioner Job function. also People Keep misinforming themselves and others in how the EU function and them argue their point wrongly.
QMV comes into play in the EU Council of EU Ministers (which is called the Council of the European Union) not in the EU Commission (Put forward Legislation) nor EU Parliament (Absolute majority voting).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QMV
That why I Believe that losing the Commissioner argument in the Lisbon referendum is Bull. I do not care about losing an Commissioner because s/he belongs to the EU not Ireland. All we can do there is appoint a Body to fill a empty role.0 -
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You argument was we do not lose more influence with Lisbon, I said we do.
No, look at my post, I said we do, though not to the extent as some make out. As you point out with expansion we lose and have done, same as everybody else. By the very nature of Expansion every country loses some power.
We lost power to some countries, gained over others.limklad wrote:My biggest problem is that the EU Commission is an unelected body. It does not come from the EU Parliament, like many Ministers from their National Parliaments, and yet they are saying that Lisbon is more democratic which is not, it only show an appearance of democracy, by letting National parliaments know future EU legislation. It allows them talk about it but reality they have little influence and can be ignored.
The EU Commissioners are EU civil Servants and can only representative the EU as a whole not National Interest. They are bureaucrats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner
Most People Do not know Rules and regulation of the EU Commissioner Job function. also People Keep misinforming themselves and others in how the EU function and them argue their point wrongly.
QMV comes into play in the EU Council of EU Ministers (which is called the Council of the European Union) not in the EU Commission (Put forward Legislation) nor EU Parliament (Absolute majority voting).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QMV
That why I Believe that losing the Commissioner argument in the Lisbon referendum is Bull. I do not care about losing an Commissioner because s/he belongs to the EU not Ireland. All we can do there is appoint a Body to fill a empty role.
We've been through this all before, especially the Commissioner and voting parts.
Your biggest problem is unelected Commissioners, Do you want the EU comissioners to be elected?
Then you seem to go onto say it isn't that important and I'm not that bothered! Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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If they are going to use the same Current EU Commission system with Lisbon then fighting over losing a commissioner is useless. Lisbon will never ever change that.No, look at my post, I said we do, though not to the extent as some make out. As you point out with expansion we lose and have done, same as everybody else. By the very nature of Expansion every country loses some power.
We lost power to some countries, gained over others.
We've been through this all before, especially the Commissioner and voting parts.
Your biggest problem is unelected Commissioners, Do you want the EU comissioners to be elected?
Then you seem to go onto say it isn't that important and I'm not that bothered!
Yes, I do want them elected from EU Parliament.0 -
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You argument was we do not lose more influence with Lisbon, I said we do.
It would help if you'd read my posts properly.limklad wrote:It does not come from the EU Parliament, like many Ministers from their National Parliaments, and yet they are saying that Lisbon is more democratic which is not, it only show an appearance of democracy, by letting National parliaments know future EU legislation. It allows them talk about it but reality they have little influence and can be ignored.
Lisbon gave more power to National Parliaments.limklad wrote:That why I Believe that losing the Commissioner argument in the Lisbon referendum is Bull.
Indeed it is Bull. Lisbon had nothing to do with us losing a Commissioner, a Libertas lie.No, look at my post, I said we do, though not to the extent as some make out. As you point out with expansion we lose and have done, same as everybody else. By the very nature of Expansion every country loses some power.
We lost power to some countries, gained over others.
We've been through this all before, especially the Commissioner and voting parts.
Your biggest problem is unelected Commissioners, Do you want the EU comissioners to be elected?
Then you seem to go onto say it isn't that important and I'm not that bothered!
Sorry you felt that was was an attack, I was genuinely confused.Yes, I do want them elected from EU Parliament.
The problem there is, it makes Commissioners political and open to lobbying by member states.I would not have surprise me if Seanie32 to come back with comments like that.
I'm offended you didn't take this up with me directly, when replying to my posts. If you had a problem, you should have said, otherwise I could easily have missed the rest of the thread and not had a chance to defend and apologise.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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You use the following on post #3 " it's a conspiracy" which is a put down and it a common phrase to smear people who question facts or leaders etc..
I'm offended you didn't take this up with me directly, when replying to my posts. If you had a problem, you should have said, otherwise I could easily have missed the rest of the thread and not had a chance to defend and apologise.
[quote=
I know, it's a conspiracy against Ireland I tell ya!
[/quote]0
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