Is a peaceful 32 united ireland possible

thehighground

luckyfrank wrote: »

What would scottish independence mean for the north?

Would it have any constitutional effect ?

It would mean the break up of the UK! (Since Wales or NI are not kingdoms, they would probably have to change the name as well!). The Union would be dissolved which would be a major constitutional effect.

I believe that and indepentant scotland is more likley to happen before an independant ireland would this have any sway on unionists view up north about the union

I wouldn't be too sure that Scotland will leave the UK - just use the threat to get as much autonomy as they can.

And by the way, there is an independent country called Ireland

djpbarry

thehighground wrote: »

Another aspect worth noting (this was a topic on slugger o'toole) is that apparently there is a trend for students to migrate east to university/college with the result that a lot of protestants/unionists from the east go to college in the UK and settle there. Apparently catholics/nationalists tend to stay in NI for their education and also settle there.

I'd be very surprised if the students of Northern Ireland would limit their prospects in such a way.

thehighground wrote: »

The Union would be dissolved which would be a major constitutional effect.

The UK doesn't have a constitution, at least not in the same way Ireland or the US do.

thehighground

djpbarry wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if the students of Northern Ireland would limit their prospects in such a way.

But thats it, they are widening their horizons. Better educational opportunities in and better job opportunities at the moment in London, Manchester etc. Also commented on slugger that fewer students from protestant/unionist background were coming to Trinity of late (which was regarded as a negative) because Dublin was too expensive and entry standard were too high. You need (I think) at least 4 x A Levels, where as 3 A Levels was more than sufficient for most other universities.

The UK doesn't have a constitution, at least not in the same way Ireland or the US do.

UK don't have a written constitution. It is actually what is termed a 'Constitutional Monarchy.'

LordSutch

thehighground wrote: »

Another aspect worth noting (this was a topic on slugger o'toole) is that apparently there is a trend for students to migrate east to university/college with the result that a lot of protestants/unionists from the east go to college in the UK and settle there. Apparently catholics/nationalists tend to stay in NI for their education and also settle there.

Correction:
Nationalist & Unionist students go to college in the UK & settle there anyway, whether they go East or not!

thehighground wrote: »

The only way it is going to happen is if there is a settlement from the British Government - which I'm pretty sure the British taxpayer would snap our hands off for ... think of it 15bn every year for 15 years (with a couple of billion probably from the EU as well!) or 15 bn+ every year until the end of time!) Its a no brainer for the British taxpayer!

You mean that Britain would just expel Northern Ireland from the UK :rolleyes:

thehighground wrote: »

Economics were the main reason why Ireland was partitioned in the first place. No doubt, Ulster unionists will be lead by economics again.

And maybe the Partition had something to do with the South breaking away on its own 'fraudulent terms' thus creating the border in the first place!

getz

all young people from the republic going to live in the uk-- and all the old people from the uk going to live in the republic--sounds good to me

thehighground

Camelot wrote: »

Correction:
Nationalist & Unionist students go to college in the UK & settle there anyway, whether they go East or not!

No, incorrect. According to sluggerotoole (which was backed up by statistical research, I tried to find the link, but couldn't), there is a general tendency in NI to move East when going to College and since the most densely populated unionist places are East of the Bann, more unionists tended to move to the UK for their further education. West of the Bann as you probably know, have a very high proportion of nationalists and moving to Belfast gave them an opportunity to move out of home/change of scene.

Furthermore, I recall a series of Primetime Programmes prior to the GFA referendum where RTE went to various schools to interview students doing their A levels, it was noted that those interviewed (workshop discussion scenario) that those from a unionist/protestant background did not see their future in NI, whereas those from a nationalist/catholic background did. That was back then, so it would be interesting to see now what the situation is.

You mean that Britain would just expel Northern Ireland from the UK :rolleyes:

No, just start tighten the purse strings a bit in NI! Move a billion or two to the NE of England/Scotland. Votes for Labour/Conservatives can be bought here. Everyone is a winner!

And maybe the Partition had something to do with the South breaking away on its own 'fraudulent terms' thus creating the border in the first place!

Bearing in mind that unionists ignored the results of a fairly decisive general election, less of the fradulent comments please!

LordSutch

thehighground wrote: »

No, incorrect. According to sluggerotoole (which was backed up by statistical research, I tried to find the link, but couldn't), there is a general tendency in NI to move East when going to College and since the most densely populated unionist places are East of the Bann, more unionists tended to move to the UK for their further education. West of the Bann as you probably know, have a very high proportion of nationalists and moving to Belfast gave them an opportunity to move out of home/change of scene.

You still have it wrong Thehighground . . . . . :rolleyes:

thehighground

Camelot wrote: »

You still have it wrong Thehighground . . . . . :rolleyes:

Sorry Camelot, I should have said more people from a unionist/protestant background moved to the Mainland:o

LordSutch

Some Unionist students tend to go to college in 'Britain' > England, Scotland & Wales.

'BRITAIN' is the word you strive for .............

thehighground

Camelot wrote: »

Some Unionist students tend to go to college in 'Britain'.

'BRITAIN' is the word you strive for .............

Thanks for helping out there ... though surely it should be Great Britain?

Darragh29

I recently decided to do my family tree. I'm as republican as you will find, I'm the lad at the party that will be thrown a guitar and asked to sing "The helicopter Song" but recently I discovered that my ancestors were not always republican or members of the church of Rome.

We were actually protestants who were planted into Northern Ireland!

I'm a republican, notwithstanding the fact that I am decended from protestant Scottish planters, but until we get our act together down here and grow a pair of b*lls for ourselves and start learning how to run a country, I'd be ashamed to ask any Unionist to be a part of a 32 county republic.

If you are a UK citizen, everyone has free GP access, I think you pay £2.65 Euro for any prescription medication. We have a long way to go before Unionists will want to be a part of this country...

getz

i think a lot of people in the republic would have a shock if they looked up there family tree--most will find they have a british connection .--i know of one english family with young children who live in and love ireland-find that they only thing they miss about the UK is that they have to pay to see a doctor--i know the NHS costs a lot of money so not many countrys can afford it-i can see why people in the north may not want to join the republic at this moment in time -but who knows mayby one day

Fratton Fred

isn't there a very well known, high up member of Sinn Fein who is also of Scottish descent?

not that it makes a rat's chuff of difference

A Dub in Glasgo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Doherty

sligobhoy67

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'd view it as possible.

I'd support a peacefully achieved 32 county republic.

+1

CerebralCortex

getz wrote: »

i think a lot of people in the republic would have a shock if they looked up there family tree--most will find they have a british connection .--i know of one english family with young children who live in and love ireland-find that they only thing they miss about the UK is that they have to pay to see a doctor--i know the NHS costs a lot of money so not many countrys can afford it-i can see why people in the north may not want to join the republic at this moment in time -but who knows mayby one day

Depends what you mean by British? My family name came with the Normans from England but I don't see a connection with British.

zuroph

i dont care who im connected to, its all a waste of energy.

LordSutch

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Depends what you mean by British? My family name came with the Normans from England but I don't see a connection with British.

Good question CerebralCortex, many people are confused about the term 'British' because it can mean many things to many people, some Irish people dont like to be associated with the word 'British', many do like being associated with the word 'British' seeing as many of us do have English, Scottish, & Welsh ancestors.

There are approx One Million Brits Up-North, and they are quite happy being in the United Kingdom, so why should they swap the 'United Kingdom' 4 a 'United Ireland'? that is the question, and whats the Big Carrot?

Greyfox

Zambia232 wrote: »

The People & Politicans down south don't want the north, they have no means to take it and even if they could they cant afford to keep it.

Theirs a great reason not to have a United Ireland, why waste billions of Euro's policing it!

As Sand asked ages ago, is their even one good thing going to be achived with a United Ireland...and the answer is No!

The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are two completely different countries just like Norway and Sweeden are two different countries!!!

A peaceful United Ireland may be possible but as the Murals in Belfast prove theirs still far to much bitterness on both sides to bother taking the risk...I love my country (my 26 county country) and despite the recession would never, ever live outside it.

I've nothing against Northern Ireland as I've had two great weekends up their and will visit again...I just think this talking about a United Ireland brings up too many things that should now be buried in the past!

Irlbo

Greyfox your dead right,the 'republic' of Ireland and 'Northen' Ireland are very different,so different that half the Norths population if not the majority regard themselves and are,Irish nationalist catholics in the same vein as the vast majority of the population down South,and share the exact same culture,GAA,the Irish language,same customs etc,what aload of crap,how does someone like yourself come to have no pride in their country(and I include that strange foreign land know as 'Northern Ireland') and be a complete unionist,which you cant deny because you are of favour of maintaining a border and the British government occupying the 6 counties,never heard such absolute bull in all my life,the only link the North has with Britain,is a misguided bigoted ignorant race of people who due more to religous belief more then national reasons,they somehow have a Veto to maintain partition

CerebralCortex

Irlbo wrote: »

Greyfox your dead right,the 'republic' of Ireland and 'Northen' Ireland are very different,so different that half the Norths population if not the majority regard themselves and are,Irish nationalist catholics in the same vein as the vast majority of the population down South,and share the exact same culture,GAA,the Irish language,same customs etc,what aload of crap,how does someone like yourself come to have no pride in their country(and I include that strange foreign land know as 'Northern Ireland') and be a complete unionist,which you cant deny because you are of favour of maintaining a border and the British government occupying the 6 counties,never heard such absolute bull in all my life,the only link the North has with Britain,is a misguided bigoted ignorant race of people who due more to religous belief more then national reasons,they somehow have a Veto to maintain partition

Take it easy man. Its interesting to note the hypocrisy above in bold. Those people living in northern Ireland who have been there 100s of years have the right to call it there home and thus deserve to be listened to nationalist and unionist alike.

LordSutch

Irlbo wrote: »

The 'republic' of Ireland and 'Northen' Ireland are very different,so different that half the Norths population if not the majority regard themselves and are,Irish nationalist catholics in the same vein as the vast majority of the population down South,and share the exact same culture,GAA,the Irish language,same customs etc,what aload of crap,how does someone like yourself come to have no pride in their country(and I include that strange foreign land know as 'Northern Ireland') and be a complete unionist,which you cant deny because you are of favour of maintaining a border and the British government occupying the 6 counties,never heard such absolute bull in all my life,the only link the North has with Britain,is a misguided bigoted ignorant race of people who due more to religous belief more then national reasons,they somehow have a Veto to maintain partition

Thats a bit harsh isnt it Irlbo . . .

Getting back to your bit about Northern Catholics being Irish Nationalist's, well yes indeed that might be true on paper Irlbo, but they are 'Northerners' Nationalist & Unionist in the same way as Swedes & Norwedians are Culturally & Religiously virtually identical (on the surface) - but the borders & the culrural differences will always remain.

Regarding your bit about "the only link the North has with Britain, is a misguided bigoted ignorant race" . . . You must be aware that the majority of people Up North 'from both sides' have Scottish or English ancestry!

Irlbo

Swedes an Norweigans?two very different peoples and cultures,only simalarties would be they scandanavian,which brings me to your other point,about Irish people having English or Scottish hertigage,a long long ago,before the plates divided breaking off bits which were to become Ireland,England and Scotland etc,we all shared,Nordic,Celtic and Scandanvian ancestry,but maybe you didnt hear after hundreds of years Irish and Scottish peoples found and established their own cultures,language and idenity very different frome England,you most be one of these imperial minded people that think Britain is so great the entire world should be like them,this country contains four provinces,Leinster,Connaught,Munster and Ulster all part of one unit know as Ireland,there is no and never has being any British influence in culture here,apart form the people artificially implanted here afre centuries ago

LordSutch

Irlbo wrote: »

Swedes an Norweigans?two very different peoples and cultures,only simalarties would be they scandanavian.

My point exactly Irlbo, Southern Irish & Northern Irish, two different peoples, two different cultures, two different tribes, only similarities would be we live on the same island, even the island next door has borders.

Irlbo wrote: »

you most be one of these imperial minded people that think Britain is so great the entire world should be like them,this country contains four provinces,Leinster,Connaught,Munster and Ulster all part of one unit know as Ireland,there is no and never has being any British influence in culture here,apart form the people artificially implanted here afre centuries ago

You are sorely wrong my bitter friend, and much as you would like to deny it, british connections within Ireland are deep & meaningful, & I am not an imperially minded person, but I do recognise our heritage.

By the way - dont you mean 'Great Britain'

djpbarry

Irlbo wrote: »

…half the Norths population if not the majority regard themselves and are,Irish nationalist catholics…

Half the population? I don’t think so. According to this poll, only about one quarter of the North’s population consider themselves nationalist:
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2007/Political_Attitudes/UNINATID.html

Irlbo wrote: »

…in the same vein as the vast majority of the population down South,and share the exact same culture,GAA,the Irish language,same customs etc…

People of Ireland, north and south, do have a lot in common. But, there are a lot of differences too. For example, look at the support that Sinn Féin has in Northern Ireland and compare it to the lack of support they have in the Republic.

Irlbo wrote: »

…you are of favour of maintaining a border…

I think you’ll find that most people in the Republic are rather indifferent with regard to “the border”, seeing as how it doesn’t actually physically exist anymore.

Irlbo wrote: »

Swedes an Norweigans?two very different peoples and cultures,only simalarties would be they scandanavian…

I think you’ll find that Norway and Sweden (and Denmark) have a lot more in common than that, particularly when one considers they were united for a considerable period of time.

Irlbo wrote: »

…which brings me to your other point,about Irish people having English or Scottish hertigage,a long long ago,before the plates divided breaking off bits which were to become Ireland,England and Scotland etc,we all shared,Nordic,Celtic and Scandanvian ancestry…

I think you may need to brush up on your natural history. The British Isles and Scandinavia have not been physically “joined” for about 200 million years, long before man came on the scene.

Irlbo

Whats great about it,and I implore you to tell a nationalist living South Armagh that they are distinctly different and no the same as their souhtern counterparts,see how long your standing,what aload of loyalist pie in sky rubbish,my mothers form Belfast,are you teling shes not the sames 'peoples' as me?

ArthurGuinness

Nostradamus predicts that Ireland will be united again during World War III whenever that will be

Irlbo

And by the way,not that Im an accolyte but Sinn Fein and the republican have a very strong presence and enjoy huge support in the South,in particular Dublin,large membership and support in places such as Finglas,Cabra,Tallght,Coolock,Crumlin/Drimnagh,Clondalkin etc,in Cork,Limerick,Wexford and pratically everywhere there is a Sinn Fein presence,the number of votes SF get in the elections in testament to that,the PR system doesnt work favourable for them though

LordSutch

The border exists 'physically & psychologically' for historical, cultural, and practical reasons whether you or I like it or not Irlbo . . .

The majority of people up North see themselves as having more in common with England, Scotland & Wales than with the Republic.

Thats just the way it is.

andrewh5

My view on this topic is that it is impossible whilst both traditions in the north continue to harbour so much hatred, distrust and sectarianism. They also need to stop living in the past (800 years for nationalists and 300+ for unionists) and look to the future.

Sadly, I can't see either happening some day (or decade) soon.