Globalisation - markets proving it doesn't work

SEPT 23 1989

there should be hundreds of people jailed for this crime against humanity

ven0m

The Economist wrote: »

Damn globalisation!

Damn spreading of the internet! Damn The Simpsons! Damn multiculturalism! Damn establishment of the UN! Damn EU enlaregment! Damn immigrants! Damn Intel, Microsoft and Dell being so damn greedy they employ Irish people! Damn the common European currency! Damn freer movement of people and goods! Damn J1 visas! Damn international trade alleviating poverty in China and India! Damn CdWow! Damn DealExtreme! Damn Boots! Damn fair-trade coffee! Damn Belgian truffles! Damn Cuisine de France! Damn Dr Oetker pizzas!

DAMN MOTHER-FUCKING CIABBATTAS!

I just lol'd in my pants ...... that was priceless

brianthebard

ven0m wrote: »

Yup - that's right folks. All those who said globalisation works, are now having proof spoon fed to them why it doesn't work. Globalisation works on a premise that everyone wants to get rich equally, but the idiots pushing it further & further & further are greedy & enough is never enough for them, & hence the ****storm the global markets now find themselves.

You're describing free trade, not globalisation. I suggest you pick this up.

biko

Capitalism - looks good on paper.

ven0m

brianthebard wrote: »

You're describing free trade, not globalisation. I suggest you pick this up.

Cheers - think I will grab a copy of it for a read sounds interesting.

I'd suggest you read this (it explains the bulk of what I hopelessly tried to put across while I tried to short-explain numerous points that confused the **** out of people, especially the chinese-held-dollar currency issue - which I should have clarified as having to do with bank liquidity fears in the U.S. should deposit holders seek withdrawls of funds).

http://econ.worldbank.org/external/default/main?pagePK=64165259&piPK=64165421&theSitePK=469372&menuPK=64166093&entityID=000016406_20070329111516

and then think about what is happening right now in the markets, & what that paper published by the world bank last year came to as a conclusion, & that we're seeing negative effects that it said could happen in poor circumstances, & why we're getting domino effect, & how globalisation has played a part in it.

'Free-trade' doesn't really event exist when you consider the WTO, & even the American objections to some WTO rulings in recent times, or WTO stances. Even look at how the U.S. reacted to Anheuser Busch being bought by a European concern - it was considered outrageous & like an invasion of an American icon, but yet an American company taking over a European icon is all ok by those same American concerns.

Wonder how many bank directors/senior bank staff made money today on shares they bought that were low last week, & gained on today's rises .....

Because it was reported that senior officials within irish banks made profits on held shares in the days following the government's announcement on the deposit guarantees where shares rose, & there was no investigations whatsoever about it.

We've all been told this morning how the budget will have to take into account this bailout & we're going to feel it through taxation, & some more than others. It's not right, & its indefensible.

There's a great line in Layer Cake at the start;

"It's like selling anything: Washing machines, handmade shoes, blowjobs. As long as you don't take the piss, people will come back for more."

All you need to do is remember the banking overcharge issues that have creeped up over the years, the foreign exchange charges crap etc. & you'll see a history of people who ventured well past the line. Again, I point out - were this private businesses in this state because of them taking the piss, they'd be told "hey, **** happens ..... deal with it & sort it out yourself."

brianthebard

I suppose you are correct, free trade doesn't in reality exist as it is theorised. Instead we have neo-liberalism, another catch all term. The point I was trying to make is that globalisation is a process that exists both due to, and exclusive of, economic factors and policies. It doesn't decide to be good or bad, to crash markets or not, it just is. Whereas free trade is the name given to the low regulation economic policies that are mainly to blame for the current crisis. I posted a link to this article before, but I think its very interesting after neo liberalism because it predicts just about everything that has happened economically in the past year, but 4 years ago.

ven0m

brianthebard wrote: »

I suppose you are correct, free trade doesn't in reality exist as it is theorised. Instead we have neo-liberalism, another catch all term. The point I was trying to make is that globalisation is a process that exists both due to, and exclusive of, economic factors and policies. It doesn't decide to be good or bad, to crash markets or not, it just is. Whereas free trade is the name given to the low regulation economic policies that are mainly to blame for the current crisis. I posted a link to this article before, but I think its very interesting after neo liberalism because it predicts just about everything that has happened economically in the past year, but 4 years ago.

aarrggghh - neo liberalism, I had someone bring this up the other day & they hurt my head with it (amongst other topics which did necessitate a trip to the pub for some Guinness!!!!). Will give that article a blast - cheers dude

I like having stuff to read (keeps me out of trouble!)

Peteee

ven0m wrote: »

and all have always said 'keep cash in a deposit account', forget pensions or your state pension because they won't be worth anything to you the way things are going.

€1000 invested in the Dow Jones Industrial Average stock market 20 years ago on the 14th of october 1988 would be worth €4,229 as of today, 13th october 2008 (After one of the worst weeks in stock market history), not counting dividends (Which would significantly increase this value).

Had you gotten out at its high of ~14,000 last year would have gotten you €6,594.

Stuck that same €1,000 into a 5% interest savings account would make that €1,000 be worth €2,701.48

ven0m

Peteee wrote: »

€1000 invested in the Dow Jones Industrial Average stock market 20 years ago on the 14th of october 1988 would be worth €4,229 as of today, 13th october 2008 (After one of the worst weeks in stock market history), not counting dividends (Which would significantly increase this value).

Had you gotten out at its high of ~14,000 last year would have gotten you €6,594.

Stuck that same €1,000 into a 5% interest savings account would make that €1,000 be worth €2,701.48

Source of these figures & which stocks?

Earthhorse

ven0m wrote: »

Source of these figures & which stocks?

You do know what the Dow Jones Industrial Average is, right?

ven0m

Earthhorse wrote: »

You do know what the Dow Jones Industrial Average is, right?

Yes, but my point is are these figures from an 'internet posting by someone or Wikipedia' or posted from a legitimate source like WSJ etc?

0ubliette

ven0m wrote: »

Yup - that's right folks. All those who said globalisation works, are now having proof spoon fed to them why it doesn't work. Globalisation works on a premise that everyone wants to get rich equally, but the idiots pushing it further & further & further are greedy & enough is never enough for them, & hence the ****storm the global markets now find themselves.

I am really & truly enjoyng watching the markets crash & burn further - bye bye globalisation!!!

Maybe once it does crash & burn, the world will have learned a valuable lesson, & then proper politics, proper economics & proper human god damned decency can prevail instead of the American-led-ideological madness we've endured for 30 years.

It should also hopefully right the wrongs of people who have profited off people's misery or exploitation by putting them in a poorhouse or jail.

Hey, I'm all for making money - but there's such a thing as not taking the piss, & they all pushed it too far & will now reap the whirlwind!

i bet you love Rage against the machine and think Communism is a fantastic system too. :rolleyes:

ven0m

0ubliette wrote: »

i bet you love Rage against the machine and think Communism is a fantastic system too. :rolleyes:

You sir, are a jackass who never read a damn post beyond what you quoted, otherwise you'd know I detest socialism/communism.

What I posted has nothing to do with communism/socialism & it's narrowminded people that seem to think that everyone who even has any distain for globalisation means they must of course embrace communism/socialism.

So I'm guessing all the people in the world bank who have had some reservations about gloablisation's affects on native economies are all flag wearing, sickle-n-hammer loving commies then?

Grow the **** up & go back to reading your copy of The Sun, because only a reader of that toiletpaper would make the equation you just did, and obviously are a dole scrounger, otherwise the prospect of your tax money being used to bail out overly greedy bastards who got caught with their pants down would offend you, & you'd understand that point at least from this thread, but I'm betting you're a dole scrounger, as you obviously don't care it's the money of the honest hard working people which is being abused.

0ubliette

ven0m wrote: »

You sir, are a jackass who never read a damn post beyond what you quoted, otherwise you'd know I detest socialism/communism.

What I posted has nothing to do with communism/socialism & it's narrowminded people that seem to think that everyone who even has any distain for globalisation means they must of course embrace communism/socialism.

So I'm guessing all the people in the world bank who have had some reservations about gloablisation's affects on native economies are all flag wearing, sickle-n-hammer loving commies then?

Grow the **** up & go back to reading your copy of The Sun, because only a reader of that toiletpaper would make the equation you just did.

lol..yeah, good one, hippy.

ven0m

0ubliette wrote: »

lol..yeah, good one, hippy.

/troll
/yawn
:rolleyes:

I'm guessing anyone who shows any kind of social responsibility/philanthropy is a hippy ....

/facepalm

0ubliette

ven0m wrote: »

/troll
/yawn
:rolleyes:

I'm guessing anyone who shows any kind of social responsibility/philanthropy is a hippy ....

/facepalm

yeah whatever, go read your copy of the socialist worker, hippy.

ven0m

0ubliette wrote: »

yeah whatever, go read your copy of the socialist worker, hippy.

trolling is a reportable offense right?


EDIT: nope, apparently it's your MO on Boards.ie ..... troll extraordinaire.

p.s. you're the hippy if you've such a beef about DRM ....... maybe you should in future choose your own words with care & what you leave posted on a public forum. Hypocrite.

Peteee

ven0m wrote: »

Source of these figures & which stocks?

Just the DJIA on the date 13th of october was 2188 (May be a slight bit off, figures are at home) compared to now. If one had a competent stock broker I'd imagine he might be able to outperform the average, and as I said, Dividends would add handsomely to this figure, if reinvested.

I'm sure you can work out the formula for 20 years @ 5% compound interest yourself!

ven0m

Peteee wrote: »

Just the DJIA on the date 13th of october was 2188 (May be a slight bit off, figures are at home) compared to now. If one had a competent stock broker I'd imagine he might be able to outperform the average, and as I said, Dividends would add handsomely to this figure, if reinvested.

I'm sure you can work out the formula for 20 years @ 5% compound interest yourself!

class ..... cheers dude.

yes, figures on first look seem attractive, I won't deny that. But, this is assuming you're handling your own trading & working exclusively within DJ. Most pension funds that have stock elements with the view to max out returns over a short-medium term (before reverting to lesser risk models towards maturation), would have elements that would delve into Nasdaq (for their stocks & their still alluring attractiveness), & other high risk/high return markets & stocks within those markets.

I mean, look at the Irish Stock Exchange; IBM as a company has a capitalisation that is greater than that of our stock exchange pre-****storm. That's mental! That's a single listed company on the NasDaq.

AIB Pension advisers (who were one of three companies I met with), had given me examples of the high risk/high yield options that would comprise the bulk of the early stages of a pension taken with them. Again, I realise this is long term for someone like me, but I do think about those who kept up the high risk/high yield options late into their pension plan as it approaches maturation who right now are looking at a substantial drop in their pensions, while the person who sold them on this idea waltzed off with a nice commission.

I personally would always rather the safe option, share dabbling is gambling - it's called gambling cos you can win big or lose big, the only people who ALWAYS win; brokers - they get paid either way (unless they've been silly bastards too LOL).

But cheers for clearing that for me dude ...... mucho appreciated, will have a gander at that later on once I'm home & have me some chillout time.

Peteee

ven0m wrote: »

class ..... cheers dude.

yes, figures on first look seem attractive, I won't deny that. But, this is assuming you're handling your own trading & working exclusively within DJ.

Yes, this model just works with the DJIA overall. All stock divided equally among the 30 companies.

Most pension funds that have stock elements with the view to max out returns over a short-medium term (before reverting to lesser risk models towards maturation), would have elements that would delve into Nasdaq (for their stocks & their still alluring attractiveness), & other high risk/high return markets & stocks within those markets.

A good balance then? And yes, any competent pension scheme would move to bonds etc as it reaches maturation for this very reason, so that a massive loss right at the end of it wont leave you in a situation as in the last few weeks.

I mean, look at the Irish Stock Exchange; IBM as a company has a capitalisation that is greater than that of our stock exchange pre-****storm. That's mental! That's a single listed company on the NasDaq.

Well IBM is a pretty massive company! It employs 300,000 people and has revenues of nearly a $100 billion. I doubt all the companies of the ISEQ even come close to that combined.

AIB Pension advisers (who were one of three companies I met with), had given me examples of the high risk/high yield options that would comprise the bulk of the early stages of a pension taken with them. Again, I realise this is long term for someone like me, but I do think about those who kept up the high risk/high yield options late into their pension plan as it approaches maturation who right now are looking at a substantial drop in their pensions, while the person who sold them on this idea waltzed off with a nice commission.

Well its poor financial planning to continue to take high risks that far down the line and I dont see why anyone would do it, and I'd imagine that AIB would advise that you switch to more stable investments as you get older.

ven0m

Peteee wrote: »

Well its poor financial planning to continue to take high risks that far down the line and I dont see why anyone would do it, and I'd imagine that AIB would advise that you switch to more stable investments as you get older.

Commission, sales targets, commission, sales targets

Just slightly diving of course on this thread topic, I spent long enough in sales in various industries (MiS, Petrochemical, Telecoms) to have seen some super dodgy **** done by sales people to 'make targets' where best interests be damned. I've never been comfortable with 'quick buck' efforts, as they usually negatively reflect on a business at some stage, create badwill & unwanted publicity, as well as internal repercussions and or career repercussions. Any staff I've had working for me who've gone down this road, I'd been fairly harsh with & always tried push towards the 'long bleed' instead of the 'gusher' effect when it comes to creating revenue lines from customers.

Just going back to the AIB advisory thing you mentioned, yes what you say SHOULD make sense, but I wish I'd had videos of the meetings with the AIB & EBS people I met with to show the pure aggressive sells I got on high risk pension plans from the outset, I won't even get into the horse**** I got from a representative from irishLife who had the nerve to call my concerns 'idiotic', given I had some reservations months back about the markets. That was a deal breaker for me referring to a possible client as 'idiotic' to their face.

I had someone from AIB tell me three months ago 'markets were ripe for pushing more aggresively into higher risks towards maturation at the present due to then low stock prices, especially in financial institutions in Ireland & they'd been actively advising near maturation customers of getting in now with these to make a final killing'. Yes, some of those poor bastards are currently facing holes in their pensions, especially those who were foolish enough to leave ALL decisions to their PFM for changes in the pension strategy. '**** happens' or 'thems the breaks' is hardly consolation to these people, especially since the PFM's still probably picked up nice bonus' & pretty much unaffected by the losses.

There's selling with confidence & then selling in an overly aggressive manner. I've never subscribed to either - I've always prefered 'sell enough to get them in the door', so they buy more over a longer term on the drip so you can maintain good pipelines, consistent sales levels, & also display 'your ability to build long term revenue giving customer relationships'.

These monkeys I met were after quick bucks & as much as possible & as quick as possible ........ it was only after a friend of mine from another Finance house explained they get bigger commissions for pushing higher risk packages that it only confirmed what I'd felt from my meetings.

Privately sought pensions are not a 'service' like the state pension, they are guided by 'how to make as much money as possible', which means maximum risk, & the cavalier attitude these organisations have taken to people's lives for their twilight years all in the knowledge that 'hey, we win either way' is nothing short of sickening, despite it being a cornerstone of how it all works.