J3 & J4 Dublin Leagues

mikedragon32

J3 and J4 leagues commence this weekend. I thought it might be a good idea to post up how things go for everyone.

Best of luck to all involved in games this weekend (and indeed, for the season).

shoutman

I play J4 with Clontarf, have our first league match against Trinity out in Santry.

Who does everyone else play with?

Tim Robbins

shoutman wrote: »

I play J4 with Clontarf, have our first league match against Trinity out in Santry.

Who does everyone else play with?

I'm a ref. Do a good few J4. Clontarf were good last year.

shoutman

We got a walkover against trinity today, they only had 13. We gave them two and won 29-5, not a great performance but we have as good a team as we had last year, CYM and Parkmore next so should be more of a test.

And yea we got to the final last year but got beaten by a Old Belvo team that were excellent, brought on a second row after 15 minutes that won every lineout, very good.

tHE vAGGABOND

Stillorgan J4 lost to Millmount House, with a very late try.

We were like headless chickens, and should have been away from them in the first half as we had a number of chances, but were not. So fair play to them for taking their chances..

shoutman

Clontarf J4 got a walkover from Trinity as they only had 14 players, we gave them a few and managed to win 29-5, frantic paced match and we were truelly shattered afterwards.

Very enjoyable though. CYM is next up on saturday.

masseyno9

tallaght beat st. mary's 31-8 in templeville road. J4 Pool 2
Terenure up next week, 2 local games in the 1st 2 weeks...interesting!

mikedragon32

Stillorgan J3 beat Mary's in Templeville Rd. 18 - 7 final score. Enjoyable game to watch, big hits in the opening exchanges. Mary's seemed to have a few new faces since last season.

Tim Robbins

Lads, what did you think of your refs and EVLs?
You can get results and table info here

mikedragon32

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Lads, what did you think of your refs and EVLs?
You can get results and table info here

Ref at the Mary's V Stillorgan game was quite good. I don't think anyone can have any complaints about him.

I didn't see our J4 match against Millmount House, but in the couple of friendlies I've seen, I certainly hope they pick up their game. In both instances the reffing of the breakdown was terrible (not an ELV, I know) and there was no consistency. With regard to the new rules, there were no real problems, apart from having to remind the defending hooker and receiver about their positioning.

What does strike me as a bit of a quirk is that at J4 level, you can opt not to contest scrums for "safety", however it's still legal to pull down a maul. Where's the sense in that?

tHE vAGGABOND

I didn't see our J4 match against Millmount House

The ref against Millmount House was terrible, but he was terrible for both teams, and we had him last year, and he was terrible then too - so its nothing to do with the new rules, and no complaints about the ref per sae

Tim Robbins

mikedragon32 wrote: »

In both instances the reffing of the breakdown was terrible (not an ELV, I know) and there was no consistency. With regard to the new rules, there were no real problems, apart from having to remind the defending hooker and receiver about their positioning.

This year, I try to shout "tackle" when the tackle has been completed and then "ruck" when the ruck begins. You can't always do it because:
1. Things happen so quickly
2. You have to check for other things

But I find it clears things up a lot. You'll find there's about 3 second gap between "tackle" and "ruck". In this 3 seconds I 'm looking for:

1. Tackler to roll away
2. Arriving players to enter from correct direction.
3. Ball Carrier to release

In that order.

A few other things complicate the breakdown:

1. Sometimes the ball carrier and gets grappled rather than tackled. He looses balance and a team mate shoves him on before his knee hits the deck. Technically this is a maul, even though it doesn't look like one.
When he hits the deck, it's techinically a turnover. It's ball lost at a maul.

It's better to ref this one, as a ruck though. As players play it that way.

2. The third man or tackler sometimes can be contesting for the ball and the
tackled player has not released it. When the ensuing ruck forms he goes mad that ref has not penalised for "not releasing" or really mad when in some cases pings he gets pinged for hands in the ruck.

The problem here is that the law states that the tackled played must release the ball immediately. What does "immediately" mean?
0.5 seconds, 1 seconds or what?

The cue for a referee is that the tackled player would have got the ball, if the tackled player released it.

Therefore if the tackler contests but is nowhere near the ball, even though he thinks he is, a ref may not ping for not releasing.

But if the tackler gets a tug on the ball, and a release would have meant he got it, he should ping for it.

So when you are contesting, tug for the ball. Practise this at training.

The problem is the in between between tug on the ball and nowhere near the ball which happens in a split second.

What does strike me as a bit of a quirk is that at J4 level, you can opt not to contest scrums for "safety", however it's still legal to pull down a maul. Where's the sense in that?

More neck injuries in scrums.

Downtime

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

The ref against Millmount House was terrible, but he was terrible for both teams, and we had him last year, and he was terrible then too..

I seriously hope that this does not turn into some sort of criticize and slag the referee thread. You play J4 rugby you get J4 standard referees. A lot of these referees are new or beginning their careers so have to learn somehow.

Eoin

Downtime wrote: »

I seriously hope that this does not turn into some sort of criticize and slag the referee thread. You play J4 rugby you get J4 standard referees. A lot of these referees are new or beginning their careers so have to learn somehow.

Well said Downtime. They're giving up their time to allow you to play a competitive fixture. Imagine how shìt it would be for a new player to be as constantly berated like a new ref can.

Tim Robbins

Downtime wrote: »

I seriously hope that this does not turn into some sort of criticize and slag the referee thread. You play J4 rugby you get J4 standard referees. A lot of these referees are new or beginning their careers so have to learn somehow.

J4 games can be harder to ref than J1 games. Partly because after the tackle, a nice clean presentation of the ball doesn't really happen so the ruck gets a lot messier. You also have generally worse discipline from teams, lads who are new to Rugby and lower fitness, concentration levels.

Heroditas

Lost to a decent Lansdowne J4 team. They certainly looked the part - all players numbered 1-15 and had a squad photo taken beforehand. It's going to be a steep learning curve for a lot of our lads this season as they are new to the game.

Also, can the refs here explain how a team can agree to go contested in the scrum and then cry and whinge to make it uncontested after the very first scrum because they got milled out of it? :rolleyes:

tHE vAGGABOND

Well said Downtime. They're giving up their time to allow you to play a competitive fixture.

To be fair I did not slag the ref, he was bad [and admitted as much in the bar after the game]. We gave him no stick at all, and it was very much "yes sir"

We are happy to have a ref and for the game to take place.

Let the ref talk her be ended, and keep it on games..

Eoin

Heroditas wrote: »

Also, can the refs here explain how a team can agree to go contested in the scrum and then cry and whinge to make it uncontested after the very first scrum because they got milled out of it?

The alternative is that a referee insist that a team contest scrums, which is potentially very dangerous even with the watered down scrummaging at that level.

Rather than change that rule, the referee should be able to report to the branch that sanctions of some description should be imposed on a team that uses it to their advantage.

tHE vAGGABOND wrote:

To be fair I did not slag the ref, he was bad [and admitted as much in the bar after the game]. We gave him no stick at all, and it was very much "yes sir"

I know - I was just agreeing that I hope it doesn't turn into a ref-bashing session.

tHE vAGGABOND

Rather than change that rule, the referee should be able to report to the branch that sanctions of some description should be imposed on a team that uses it to their advantage.

Wasps and a few other big teams have been doing it in games I have seen this season..

I think its a part of world rugby now full stop tbh

Eoin

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Wasps and a few other big teams have been doing it in games I have seen this season..

I think its a part of world rugby now full stop tbh

It's not too different to when tactical subs were not allowed, so fake injuries happened. And the allegations of some teams using fake blood to give someone a 10 minute breather in the blood bin (not too sure how true that one is).

As I said, the referee should be able to submit a report detailing the impact that the uncontested scrums had on the outcome of the game, and maybe something can be done then. The alternative of forcing contested scrums is just too dangerous - especially in junior rugby when there can be a massive disparity in the front row. Imagine a guy new to the game coming up against an ex-AIL prop...

That said, is there really that much of an impact on the game given that you can only drive for a couple of metres, and that the scrum is just reset if it goes 90?

Heroditas

eoin_s wrote: »

That said, is there really that much of an impact on the game given that you can only drive for a couple of metres, and that the scrum is just reset if it goes 90?

Try scrummaging 20 times in a game and see how much energy you have left afterwards. Tactically it might not make a lot of difference but it really saps the energy.

What annoyed us most was that they didn't even substitute one of their front row and pretend he was injured. They simply stated they didn't want to go contested anymore. I wouldn't mind but their pack dwarfed ours in height and weight.

Downtime

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

To be fair I did not slag the ref, he was bad [and admitted as much in the bar after the game]. We gave him no stick at all, and it was very much "yes sir"

We are happy to have a ref and for the game to take place.

Let the ref talk her be ended, and keep it on games..

tHE vAGGABOND - I didn't say you did and didn't mean to imply that - was just expressing my hope that it wouldn't turn into a ref blood bath.

Eoin

Heroditas wrote: »

Try scrummaging 20 times in a game and see how much energy you have left afterwards. Tactically it might not make a lot of difference but it really saps the energy.

I've spent a good few years in the front row, so I know what you mean. However, I am talking about the direct difference of an uncontested scrum, not any indirect ones like having more energy.

Before the limit on how far you could drive in the scrum, it had a much bigger impact as there was a much bigger chance of gaining lots of yards, pushover tries, winning ball against the head etc directly from the scrum. As that's changed, then the difference of going non-contested shouldn't be as big.

Heroditas wrote: »

What annoyed us most was that they didn't even substitute one of their front row and pretend he was injured. They simply stated they didn't want to go contested anymore. I wouldn't mind but their pack dwarfed ours in height and weight.

You don't have to be injured to feel uncomfortable with a contested scrum. In fact, if the prop had gone off injured, then I think he could have been replaced by someone with no propping experience and the scrums have gone uncontested.

Sundy

Heroditas wrote: »

Try scrummaging 20 times in a game and see how much energy you have left afterwards. Tactically it might not make a lot of difference but it really saps the energy.

What annoyed us most was that they didn't even substitute one of their front row and pretend he was injured. They simply stated they didn't want to go contested anymore. I wouldn't mind but their pack dwarfed ours in height and weight.

Id say their pack weight would have been almost a third more than ours. Uncontested probably suited us just as well

mikedragon32

J4 result: Stillorgan 5 - 20 Bective

Wasn't a bad game at all. Neutrals would have enjoyed a very entertaining game that had everything from driving mauls to open running. Some great defending from both sides too. Even Bective must agree that the teams were closer on the pitch than the score would have you believe.

Stillorgan J3s are up against Skerries tomorrow in Bird Avenue.

LeinsterLion1

Anyone know what the story is with Wanderers J4S ?

They conceded V Newbridge this past weekend, but were able to field the previous weekend V Nure

We play them shortly would be nice to know if they are likely to field!

omb0wyn5ehpij9

We played them in a pre season friendly 3 or 4 weeks ago and they could field a team

CdeC

hey,
Just wondering what everyone here feels about fitness. Should a team do fitness drills during training or should it be left up to individuals. Do people here do fitness during training sessions.???

Goodluck2me

CdeC wrote: »

hey,
Just wondering what everyone here feels about fitness. Should a team do fitness drills during training or should it be left up to individuals. Do people here do fitness during training sessions.???

in terms of performance and effort fitness in a group far out weighs that of fitness on your own, and any coach who doesn't do any fitness work with his team on a weekly basis is doing both himself and the team a disservice, or is coaching a pro team.

Eoin

goodluck2me wrote: »

in terms of performance and effort fitness in a group far out weighs that of fitness on your own, and any coach who doesn't do any fitness work with his team on a weekly basis is doing both himself and the team a disservice, or is coaching a pro team.

Obviously fitness should be a part of it, but the problem at that level is that it can be very hard to get some guys involved with it - they just want to jog around on a Thursday night and probably do a bit more of the same come match-time. Some junior teams are a lot more disciplined, so that obviously isn't the case for everyone.

The trick is to incorporate fitness training into exercises and drills that are fun and/or more like a match. Telling a lot of J3/4 players to do a few laps of the pitch is going to turn a lot of people off, and it can be hard enough getting players down to training as it is.

mikedragon32

eoin_s wrote: »

Obviously fitness should be a part of it, but the problem at that level is that it can be very hard to get some guys involved with it - they just want to jog around on a Thursday night and probably do a bit more of the same come match-time. Some junior teams are a lot more disciplined, so that obviously isn't the case for everyone.

The trick is to incorporate fitness training into exercises and drills that are fun and/or more like a match. Telling a lot of J3/4 players to do a few laps of the pitch is going to turn a lot of people off, and it can be hard enough getting players down to training as it is.

Couldn't agree more.

Our sessions are divided into fitness/drills on Tuesdays and Thursdays are for backs and forwards to divide up and do their own thing before having a run against each other later in the evening.

It's vital to do conditioning as a team. Apart from the obvious benefit of getting match fit, it also builds the team and everyone gets encouragement from one another. It also affords coaches/selectors an opportunity to see who is giving it their all.

Eoin

mikedragon32 wrote: »

It also affords coaches/selectors an opportunity to see who is giving it their all.

Unfortunately, in my experience at J3/4 level, selectors tend to go by who is answering their phone on the morning of a game.

Like I said, if you can incorporate the fitness into skills based drills I think it's the best mix.

norrie rugger

st mary's j3 got their 2nd win today against old belvedere
mary's had 12 men at kick off, I think Belvo were offered the walkover but declined, as they wanted a BP
Mary's played with 12 for 30 min, 13 for a further 15, 14 back to 13 for blood then played with 14 for last 15min

Mary's got into an early 3 point lead, then doubled to 6. 2 peno's from Belvo tied it. Belvo looked to have won, 9-6 with 2 min on the clock.
Mary's turned over the resulting kick-off and a grubber/chase resulted in a try in the corner, converted for 13-9.
That's how it ended