T.N.R

mary123

In the other thread i put T.N.R????. I wasnt disagreeing with Egar what i was asking is cats that r T.N.R are they given after care? Just have seen cats going in for this and have seen them been picked up the same day. Know for a fact one person that does this lets them go the same evening. Which i would think is cruel but she says this is what this organizaion(sp) does as they havent got the funds for after care. Is this the norm.

tallus

What's tnr ? it would be nice if you didn't abbreviate.

Sigma Force

I think it might be the norm for some places, even having a vet hold the cats over night can cost extra. Most cats that are TNR have someone already feeding them or looking out for them so if there were any complications I guess they could trap them again.

From a humane side not sure which would be best would the stress of holding the cat if it was truly un domesticated be worse than letting the cat go.
Then again if stitches come loose or a cat picks at them that would be a disaster. So not sure how in general it works or how many problems arrise.

Whenever I took in cats moons ago I never had the heart to let them go again because after the op and a few days of tlc they would usually come round and a few weeks later would pretty much be house cats but other cats take a lot longer to come around.

Be interesting to hear what other people/organisations do and what they found the best method. I guess vets put internal stitches that dissolve for extra security and maybe keep an eye on the cat for the few hours after the op to see if there's any picking or problems.

Be interesting to hear what others do anyway with a large number of cats it's harder. Can see the good and bad points to it.

It's a tough one, ideally a couple of days confinement at least until the wound heals would be best it's only 10 days but with the number of cats needing TNR I would say it's near impossible in some cases.

EGAR

tallus wrote: »

What's tnr ? it would be nice if you didn't abbreviate.

Trap - Neuter - Release of feral cats.

Commonly refered to as TNR. I have already written in the other thread how I feel about post OP care.

cotton

Ok, I've tnr'd 100's of cats. They always get done in the morning & the lads are let back that evening. Girls are always held overnight, either at the vets or here. If they are v pregnant & it's a more invasive procedure, they are held longer.
Always in a monitered colony so if anything goes wrong (which it never has, I'm blessed to have one of the top vets in the country) I can get them straight back to the vets.
If you hold a truely feral cat longer than needs be, the stress alone from that is more damaging than the op.

BlackCat2008

I tnr all the time, it does not stress a feral out by keeping them in, the risk of something going wrong is fare greater if let out that night. I was handed two rescue kittens back two years ago from a vet who let me pick them up early and only I did they'd be dead, they were ice cold, solid to be honest and would have died if I set them free that night, it takes 48 hrs for the Anaesthetic to come out of their systems, one of them the male had fallen further than normal into the anaesthetic and was unable to regulate his own body heat, I blame the vet and nurse for not recognising what had happened.

I make plans ahead of time to catch so they go start to the vets they are neutered and tested while under and wormed and have flea drops put on, if the test is clear I allow them to integrate with my own which works well, if test are positive they are keep separate, they stay on till the stitches are re-moved and the antibiotics are warn of, they can then have there vac's and when finished can be released, they still know who I am when I go check on them and are caught again every year to be vaxed and stay on till Halloween is over.

No cat should be released until at least 48 hrs after the op mim.

Limerick Bandit

Is there a lot of feral cats out there?

tallus

EGAR wrote: »

Trap - Neuter - Release of feral cats.

Commonly refered to as TNR. I have already written in the other thread how I feel about post OP care.

Thanks Egar

Sigma Force

Is there a lot of feral cats out there?

A heck of a lot, there are no exact numbers but you're talking about thousands. One estate or road alone can have a dozen, or more depending on the area.

On a road I used to live on there was about 7 or 8 regular cats (no owners) and a bunch of others that wandered around but each group had their own patch. Nowdays there are still groups of cats in the area, many sick and some with bad injuries. Only lived there a while at the time and managed to trap and spay and rehome 3 females only a small dent but at least that was 3less cats breeding in the area.

When people say feral it may make you think of wild cats but the majority of them can be domesticated some take longer than others. Some of them eventhough they don't have owners are very friendly.
In my time usually the cats adopt you rather than the other way around.

BlackCat2008

I have to agree they do adopt you, even if you feed them, they still will choose weather or not to stick around.

In the Guinness book of records it recorded that one cat had 420 kittens in it's breeding life and one had 19 in one litter, the most I've seen in one litter is five but multi ply 4-5 litters a year, by 4-5 kittens in each litter, by ten breeding years from one cat alone, then multi ply half that again for female kittens that start breeding from 6 months on and it begins to add up pretty quick.

One colony can contain up to 100 cats and kittens, in an area that is plenty full with food, and low on traffic and dogs and it will become 200 over night.

The only thing that naturally keeps the population down is disease, deaths at birth, attacks from predators and natural death, the strong can live on for years and continue to breed.

It's not ideal to interfere but to see them die slowly of disease is worse, it's a horrible death.

Irish-Lass

I am in the middle of a TNR at the moment in Finglas - so far the count is up to 16 - 15 of them were trapped on one property - they were caught the night before kept in my house over night - dropped to the vets in the morning by me and then collected from the vets by me on my way home from work - all cats were kept in till about 9.30/10.00 that night - all the cats were fully awake when collected from the vets - I keep them for a few hours monitor them make sure they have had something to eat etc and are released back into the environment in which they came from - all the cats have been blood tested for FIV and FeLV - all ears have been nicked so that its clear they have been neutered/spayed - it was agreed with the person that lived in the property that if any came back with positive bloods that they would be pts but thankfully all came back negative - they were all treated for worms and fleas - all given flu antiotics and a long acting pain killer - the property where they live a man is looking after them and I can pop in now and again and check on them. I have given the man liquid wormer so he can treat them every 2/3 months. I am going to purchase dog kennels so that the cats have somewhere warm to shelter in the winter and also hoping to provide him with some food for them.

Yes in an ideal world I would be able to keep them over night but unfortuantely we are not in the real world - most of us do what we can to help animals - people may not agree with that but to me there is now 16 cats most of them females that are not going to have more unwanted litter - left to fend for themselves etc.

BlackCat2008

I don't douth for a second your doing very good work to help these cats, I know how finical draining it is as well as time consuming.

My vet only charges me 150-170 for neutering and testing, scaling and any other thing that needs to be done while their under and I have to pay out full cost for vac, petrol, and food. I am lucky enough so far that I only ever have to call on a charity like cat aid or dogs trust maybe once a year or two years when I'm over whelmed.

I never hold a cat over night in a cage as this stresses them out to much before the op, I'll set traps late at night and straight to the vet that morning.

I don't understand why you keep them the night before and you can't keep them the night after as this is the most dangerous time for them ?

As I run a home rescue it's my call what happens to them and when I rescue for others they are told it's my way or nothing, I have rescued for other charities/organisations as well as fostered ferrals till there better and they are happy that they are kept with me till I'm happy with the vet saying there fine to go as well as me being happy with them being fine to leave.

Is there a reason you can't hold them for the second night ? If your worried they won't use the litter trays you'd be surprised how many do without a problem, you could invest in a crate to keep them in while they stay and you don't have to run around trying to catch them either or are you doing it for a charities/organisation that tells you to release them so early ?

I'm not questioning the good work your doing congrats, but just putting across to you the dangers in early release, like walking under a car or dropping into a deeper sleep leaving them venerable to attack or hypothermia, dizzy spells making walking walls, negotiating around objects, escaping attack near impossible, leaving them open to catching the stitches form staggering in and out of bushes or to week to defend of attack even from the other cats they know because they have come back with a new smell on them and trapping them again so soon can prove impossible, there smart enought to avoid the trap the second time etc. etc. I've seen most of my animals look fine and doing well, then fall over for no reason or walk into something or get dizzy and this would be at 2 or 4 in the morning (I always stay up with them till I'm sure the main risks have gone). It's great what your doing for them but it would be best if you trapped them over night and go to the vet in the morning and kept them with you that night instead, as you have to got to work trap them on a Thur. night, vets Fri. morning, giving you plenty of time to release them on Sat.

If he's not to fare away from you, you could invest in a set of baby monitors so you can hear if you've trapped one or not, saving you valuable sleeping time if none are caught. Top tip of the day.

cotton

Blackcat, just so you know, Irish Lass is very, very experienced in trapping & all that goes along with it.

I've held cats in traps overnight countless times & it doesn't stress them out once they are covered. As soon as a cat is covered it will automatically shut down.

What does cause horrendous stress is leaving a trap out overnight or unattended.
I would never, ever leave a trap unmonitored. Cats that are caught & not covered straight away can do serious damage to themselves. It will push it's face against the bars and or it will try to gnaw the bars, causing damage to the nose and soft palate area A mother cat may be trapped who has very young kittens a few hours may mean the difference between life and death for them, she will also fight to get out of the trap injuring herself.
Traps need to covered as soon as the cat is caught.

I also pts any fiv positive cats that are trapped. To put back an fiv positive cat is a massive no no imo. Not only will it go on to infect other cats, it will die a horrible, slow death on the streets.

Irish-Lass

Blackcat these are not the first cats or colony that I have trapped - this is the 3/4 colony that I have done together with a number of loners who happen to wander into my garden or on someone elses property and actually have one of the feral cats I trapped on Prussia Street living in my house noe for 2 years we are getting there slowly but he loves the dogs so all is good.

The colony of cats I am working on at the moment have all been trapped after 9.30/10.00p.m. in the evening are left in a quiet room over night with a cover over the trap they are given something small to eat and access to water till the morning - they are dropped into the vets at 8.30 the next morning on my way to work as they only open at 8.30 - my vets have been very accommadating in that I don't have to let them know in advance what I have trapped just bring them along in the morning. My vets are charging me charity rates for the neutering/spaying and I am getting a discount for all the blood tests.

All cats are released at 10.00 p.m. that night after I have made sure that they have had something to eat and are fully recovered from the operation.

We trapped a cat on Saturday night out our back and rather then leaving it in the trap put it in a covered crate - which I have together with covers, litter trays etc. - but unfortuantely trying to transfer a very unwilling feral cat back into a trap or even a carrier is not the easiest thing to do and is HIGHLY stressful for a cat - but I did it yesterday morning and now bare the scares with lovely teeth marks on my thump. She was releasd last night at 11.00 and greeted me this morning on the back garden wall looking for food. Obviously I now have a feral cat as an out door cat - but she is welcome to sleep in the kennels and I will provide her with food and water on a daily bases.

And as for cats who can go without the toilet then there are the ones that can't and the smell in the house is not pleasant.

The cats that are being trapped are being relased back onto the property that they came from, there is a man that is monitoring them and feeding them and has my number - he is welcoming the cats into his house if they want to and 2 of the younger ones have actually spent a few nights in doors - he is aware of the signs to look for if anything is wrong with the cats and knows to get in touch with me.

I have been trapping cats for a few years now and while I certainly do not claim to be an expert in the area I have thankfully not lost a cat through neutering/spaying - at the end of the day everyone has different ways and this is the way that works for me - releasing cats back into the environment in which they came from - obviously once it is save to do so I always find helps them settle quicker. All stitches are desolveable.

As for a feral cat not going back into a trap the colony of cats that are being done we have a young black and white male that goes into the trap everytime it is set - eats the food and waits patiently to be released - I also trapped a hedgehog on the same property last week but released it - thinking my vet would not appreciate it.

My cousins have a garage near a stables and they had a large group of feral cats I helped them trap them all and then they very kindly agreed to take on a few extra feral cats from a rescue as they had no safe place to live - in that situation cause it was not an enviroment they were paired up in 2's lived in a crate for a week with litter tray - fully covered etc and were relased one night when it was quiet with me holding a very hot and smelly chicken - the 12 cats all live quiet nicely and even share lunch with my cousins - they moved properties about 6 months ago and they moved 8 of the cats (the other 4 stayed at the stables which isn't that far from the new place - and have made a few visits to my cousins garage) with them and again they took a lend of my 4 crates and kept the cats crated for 2 weeks before releasing them and again at night with a hot chicken - all 8 are still alive and kicking - I have provided them with a feeding station so they have food over the weekend and they have also provided the cats with sleeping quarters.

BlackCat2008

I'm rescuing nearly 19yrs and clearing out hoarders and TNR for about 16yrs.

I pay for this out of my own pocket, I'm lucky to have the best vets in the world, they knock them out and test first, if I get a call before 11, I know before I answer they have been put to sleep, it not I know to expect them home that night.

Trans faring a cat from a crate is simple when you know how, tie a piece of wood to the back of the cage and move it forward to make the cat go into the cage, use tin ply or marine wood, easier to get your fingers round.

Most colonies I sort are usually in retirement communities and I spent time watching them before I trap, this is how I know the mothers from the rest, and who is leader and who is small fry, better to catch leader first I find then they know the smell of the small fry and are less likely to attack. I've been known to sit out all night in the car watching them before and after release, and have seen many attacks on them by their own, which help me to figure out who best to try and trap first. For those not so lucky to have people to feed and look out for them I check them myself.

I'm certainly no spring chicken to this game and know the second a cat is trapped, it's check asap and mother cats are released and followed there and then, 9/10 I know who they are to begin with and I sort them out first.

You still haven't answered my question as to why you can keep them one night and not the other ?

I think it is madness to expect a groggy animal to fend for it's self in that condition, you need to remember the minute they wake and figure out something is not right their natural instinct is to act as best they can like nothings wrong and they are the tough guy they always were, this can lead to people thinking they are just fine.

cotton

Laura, you're not far from an expert at this stage.

Blackcat, you are missing the point - these cats are not left to fend for themselves, they are monitored, as are the ones I do.

Am interested to know if you feel the same way about males being released the same day?

Limerick Bandit

I have been watching this thread and I would like to know what is the difference between males and females on this issue?

cotton

With females, it involves an operation & stitches, usually dissolvable. They are at risk of the wound opening although if done by a good vets, this rarely, if ever happens.
With males, it's a simple "pop them out", a more minor procedure with no after effects.

Irish-Lass

Blackcat as I said everyone has different ways and this is the way I do it and it works for me - you could get every rescue in the country together and every single one of them will have a different way in which they do things.

BlackCat2008

I hold both male and female min of 48hrs depending on weather I will be vax them or not. The cat that dropped deeper in to the anaesthetic I had neutered was a male.

Sorry if I didn't say everyone has their own way, meant to.
I just feel the risk is two high to warrant and after all if I go through so much to have them seen to, I'd hate to find they'd been hit by a car the following day I check on them, it's their safety at the end of the day I'm thinking off.

Banit the differents is a male is a minor op and only takes minutes to complete, and 9/10 do not need stitches removed some are also given pain relieve and antibiotics.

A female on the other hand takes a lot longer and is a major op and more invasive as they are opened right up to reach the womb, they also require layers of stitches to patch them up and a lot of pain relieve and antibiotic's. Being that they are under longer they are also at higher risk of something going wrong.

Neither should be given food for from about 9-10 the night before the op, nor feed till the following morning after the op, as they run the risk of inhaling it into the lungs during the op or getting sick from the anaesthetic and choking, or being to groggy to chow their food after the op and choking, but plenty of water is allowed.

In my case it was a male it went wrong on and a bad set of vets and nurses that didn't monitor him properly or they wouldn't of handed him back to me like they just tuck him out of the freezer he was stiff inside and out and I couldn't get a heart beat I thought he was dead and they just forgot to tell me, his sister was just as cold but was at least alert , it tuck me over two hours to get him home while constantly stopping to try to get some heat in him and getting to another vet, it was another two hrs before he even remotely came around and was never the same gentle soul he was before the op, because of this he suffered with constant chest infections, he lost the battle for live a year later.

I never take a chance male or female in fact most op's I've heard of going wrong are on the males, usually because they take away to much skin and they are in agony.

Each to their own.

Irish-Lass

Exactly Blackcat each to their own.