Match Thread: Munster v Montauban *Spoilers*

Stev_o

Inquitus wrote: »

I'll guarantee you now the ML will have more teams in the Q/F than the GP, thats a no brainer.

I didnt say GP did I.

And anyway ML team's get 9 teams into the comp, France 7, England 6 so mathematically ML team's should always get the higher % in the last remaining teams doesnt make them better then over one else.

Inquitus

ironingbored wrote: »

Montauban were without arguably their best players: Delasau, Paku, Rosalen and Diarra. If they show the same committment at home they will be hard to beat and bonus points will be very difficult to obtain.

Aye but that applies to Sale, Munster and probably more so Clermont, so it doesnt really change the group dynamic.

RuggieBear

it's unlikely that munster could play that badly again. I fully functioning munster will beat the rest of the teams in the group

Stev_o

castie wrote: »

Munster have had some terrible games and still done well. Best the ML has to offer? It was one game, they played bad. You can hardly slate an entire league for one teams bad performance on a wet friday night in limerick

Surely that would of played into Munster's hands i do remember this is the team that beat Scarlets in a tropical monsoon a bit of drizzle shouldnt of held them back from beating a side that is no way decent i mean 13 2nd string players against the best in form Munster side, they should of breezed across them.

And im basing my fact on the fact that Munster are currently first in the ML ie the best team in the league so far against a side that is currently 10 in the TOP14.

Inquitus

Stev_o wrote: »

I didnt say GP did I.

And anyway ML team's get 9 teams into the comp, France 7, England 6 so mathematically ML team's should always get the higher % in the last remaining teams doesnt make them better then over one else.

It does actually, as having the Dragons and Glasgow in for the ML may boost the theoretical permutations of who should have the the most Q/F teams due to the numbers, in reality it has no effect. The Italians have 2 teams every year and that would imply they would have a Q?F team 2 out of every 3 years..............

madds

"Highlights" on RTE2 at 11:20pm tonight

castie

Saying someone on top of a league at such an early stage is the best they have to offer isnt sound judgement.

Stev_o

Inquitus wrote: »

It does actually, as having the Dragons and Glasgow in for the ML may boost the theoretical permutations of who should have the the most Q/F teams due to the numbers, in reality it has no effect. The Italians have 2 teams every year and that would imply they would have a Q?F team 2 out of every 3 years..............

I dont see how having the lowest percentage of teams in a overall competition could see them get to the Q/F every year. Mathematically that just doesnt make sense.

Inquitus

Anyways, poor performance, right result for Munster, Connacht did a number on Dax tonight, so here's hoping Leinster can make it 3 out of 4 early tomorrow afternoon and we can all roar on Ulster for a provinces clean sweep at 5.30pm.

castie

He didnt say every year...

Inquitus

Stev_o wrote: »

I dont see how having the lowest percentage of teams in a overall competition could see them get to the Q/F every year. Mathematically that just doesnt make sense.

Aye but this is not maths, put 10 AIL teams into the HC and see how many make the Q/F's, it's not maths or probability, it's about the quality of the teams.

dreamer_ire

Stev_o wrote: »

Surely that would of played into Munster's hands i do remember this is the team that beat Scarlets in a tropical monsoon a bit of drizzle shouldnt of held them back from beating a side that is no way decent i mean 13 2nd string players against the best in form Munster side, they should of breezed across them.

And im basing my fact on the fact that Munster are currently first in the ML ie the best team in the league so far against a side that is currently 10 in the TOP14.

Connaught or Ulster would have pushed us tonight... if not beaten us. Leinster and Ospreys would have made ****e out of us so to say that tonights match was the best the ML has to offer is just plan barking. We were awful but still pulled off a win. Montauban, in fairness to them did very well, but I believe that was more about how poorly we played than them not letting us play.

Not a fair analogy based on one (very poor) game StevO... everyone has an off night (and tonight was a very off night for us)

Inquitus

Stev_o wrote: »

I dont see how having the lowest percentage of teams in a overall competition could see them get to the Q/F every year. Mathematically that just doesnt make sense.

OK for the Italians, if your Maths isn't up to scratch. Italy have 2/24 teams, 8 teams make the Q/F's, on probability that means one italian team should make the Q/F's in 2 out of every 3 years

marco_polo

Very poor performance, a bad game plan, too many errors, and as much as they will deny it a large dollop of complacency as well.

But it was just one game no need for a massive overreaction or panic. A win is a win at the end of the day.

Stev_o

Inquitus wrote: »

Aye but this is not maths, put 10 AIL teams into the HC and see how many make the Q/F's, it's not maths or probability, it's about the quality of the teams.

Meh it beats the whole im bigger then you argument thats been going around this forum lately makes people use their brains a bit more.

Stev_o

dreamer_ire wrote: »

Connaught or Ulster would have pushed us tonight... if not beaten us. Leinster and Ospreys would have made ****e out of us so to say that tonights match was the best the ML has to offer is just plan barking. We were awful but still pulled off a win. Montauban, in fairness to them did very well, but I believe that was more about how poorly we played than them not letting us play.

Not a fair analogy based on one (very poor) game StevO... everyone has an off night (and tonight was a very off night for us)

I dunno i felt that Munster were like headless chickens i mean how many times have they played this sort of match and won comfortably, when i noticed the rain on the way home on the train i thought this plays into Munster's hands perfectly yet it only seemed like Warick was the only guy who understood how to play the conditions.

Inquitus

Stev_o wrote: »

I dunno i felt that Munster were like headless chickens i mean how many times have they played this sort of match and won comfortably, when i noticed the rain on the way home on the train i thought this plays into Munster's hands perfectly yet it only seemed like Warick was the only guy who understood how to play the conditions.

The ELV's and Munster's evolution have killed the old Munster way, the breakdown is far less assured for either side then it was in previous years (ELV's), and a consequence so is taking the ball around the fringes (ELV's), the maul as a weapon is also dimmed to a pale shade of it's former self(ELV's), and our strength is now in the forwards and out wide in equal measure(New Munster). I was fearful of the rain tonight, not welcoming it as I would have in years gone by.

Inq

dreamer_ire

Stev_o wrote: »

I dunno i felt that Munster were like headless chickens i mean how many times have they played this sort of match and won comfortably, when i noticed the rain on the way home on the train i thought this plays into Munster's hands perfectly yet it only seemed like Warick was the only guy who understood how to play the conditions.

Completely agree with headlessness and you are right, many a time we have put this out of sight much much earlier but I think our game has changed since the introduction of the Southern Hemisphere boys and it's no longer all about tha pack. IMO it makes us a rounder and more interesting team... tonight we were just woeful, but nonetheless a result is a result. Here's hoping we get bakc to normal as soon as.

Cmon Leinster and Ulster for tomorrow.

PS I've never seen Ulster lose at home.... guess where I'm going tomorrow lol

dreamer_ire

Inquitus wrote: »

The ELV's and Munster's evolution have killed the old Munster way, the breakdown is far less assured for either side then it was in previous years, and a consequence so is taking the ball around the fringes, the maul as a weapon is also dimmed to a pale shade of it's former self, and our strength is now in the forwards and out wide in equal measure. I was fearful of the rain tonight, not welcoming it as I would have in years gone by.

Inq

Agreed Inq... rain used to mean Munster win but no longer, the game has changed and we are changing. Last week we also didn't play as well as expected in the rain... who knows maybe we'll have sensational games in France!

Stev_o

Inquitus wrote: »

The ELV's and Munster's evolution have killed the old Munster way, the breakdown is far less assured for either side then it was in previous years (ELV's), and a consequence so is taking the ball around the fringes (ELV's), the maul as a weapon is also dimmed to a pale shade of it's former self(ELV's), and our strength is now in the forwards and out wide in equal measure(New Munster). I was fearful of the rain tonight, not welcoming it as I would have in years gone by.

Inq

I dunno Munster should of still play the % for most of the game and waited for Mauntaban to crack i dont think ROG had a great game (bar kicks at goals) i thought Warick had the right idea when he came on about sending them back and putting pressure on their lineout etc

Probably Munster should be concered with their backrow which isnt particularly fast id like to see Nial Ronan start getting more consistent game time as he would be more suited to these types of games, as i said in another thread i fear the speed of the ELV's have really tied Quinlans arm on the amount he can get done.

Erin Go Brath

Only saw the 2nd half, Munster were shocking. I lost count of the amount of knock ons, i know it was raining but still shocking stuff. Munster maybe deserved to win just about, didn't convince though. We'll put it down to a bad day at the office. Munster must improve to get out of this group.

Trojan

madds wrote: »

"Highlights" on RTE2 at 11:20pm tonight

And previews of tomorrow's games at 11:21pm.

Erin Go Brath

Stev_o wrote: »

Probably Munster should be concered with their backrow which isnt particularly fast id like to see Nial Ronan start getting more consistent game time as he would be more suited to these types of games, as i said in another thread i fear the speed of the ELV's have really tied Quinlans arm on the amount he can get done.

Telling that Quinlan got quickly replaced after that loose pass that led to Montabauns try.

dreamer_ire

Trojan wrote: »

And previews of tomorrow's games at 11:21pm.

I hope you have accounted for the credits in that time Trojan lol

louthandproud

Inquitus wrote: »

OK for the Italians, if your Maths isn't up to scratch. Italy have 2/24 teams, 8 teams make the Q/F's, on probability that means one italian team should make the Q/F's in 2 out of every 3 years

Flawed probability as it is based on all things being equal.

Inquitus

louthandproud wrote: »

Flawed probability as it is based on all things being equal.

If you read the thread you would see my point was all things are not equal.....but then you didn't read the thread...so meh

louthandproud

Inquitus wrote: »

If you read the thread you would see my point was all things are not equal.....but then you didn't read the thread...so meh

I read the thread, what you might have meant there is one thing, but your probability statement is still flawed, probabilities don't have context, If the teams were equally sized balls being pulled out of a bowl 8 of 24 would mean that in three reps 2 balls from the same group should make the 8, 2/3 times, in that case your maths would make sense, but they aren't balls they are rugby teams playing each other that have infinitely more inequalities so it doesn't.

RuggieBear

enough with the probability talk. rugby forum....

louthandproud

RuggieBear wrote: »

enough with the probability talk. rugby forum....

Sorry! Agreed. I will behave.

Looking at the game again here on RTE, the comment from Ralph that the atmosphere was more carnival than the usual raw old Thomond edge would seem to make sense or match the performance on the field. I hope the new Thomand regains its old charm and soon.

castie

louthandproud wrote: »

I read the thread, what you might have meant there is one thing, but your probability statement is still flawed, probabilities don't have context, If the teams were equally sized balls being pulled out of a bowl 8 of 24 would mean that in three reps 2 balls from the same group should make the 8, 2/3 times, in that case your maths would make sense, but they aren't balls they are rugby teams playing each other that have infinitely more inequalities so it doesn't.

Your missing the point here...
He said this because someone said that since the ML have more teams than other leagues they should have more in the quarter finals. So he quoted that as a reason for the first statement being false.

Inquitus

louthandproud wrote: »

I read the thread, what you might have meant there is one thing, but your probability statement is still flawed, probabilities don't have context, If the teams were equally sized balls being pulled out of a bowl 8 of 24 would mean that in three reps 2 balls from the same group should make the 8, 2/3 times, in that case your maths would make sense, but they aren't balls they are rugby teams playing each other that have infinitely more inequalities so it doesn't.

That was my point, thanks for re-affirming it after you read the thread, even if you are still a tad confused.

Crash

Only caught the second half, and i'd definitely agree with it being quite similar to the leinster match v. conacht - handling poor, couldnt connect after the first/second phase - generally disappointing. don't think its gonna continue for the rest of the group, but anyhow.

Montauban played quite well defensively, and showed that a team can still win by playing such a conservative game. Dougie still being played as a third centre, because neither of the current two are willing to step outside an pass wide, effectively losing a winger.

Overall, I hope that I don't have to come on here and say the same thing tomorrow night about Leinster fingers crossed. Montauban put up an incredibly hearty game for a second string team though, think they really should be applauded for that.

[Jackass]

Munster didn't deserve to win that imo, and were lucky Montauban didn't have a kicker on the pitch! Again you have to say if they squeeze out of the group by a point or 2, let off the hook by a French team throwing out a second string team against them? (assuming they don't do it against everyone else)

Fair play though, you can only play the opposition that's infront of you and a win is a win, Munster will kick on from here and improve no doubt, but the set piece must be a major concern that needs sorting!

marco_polo

[Jackass] wrote: »

Munster didn't deserve to win that imo, and were lucky Montauban didn't have a kicker on the pitch! Again you have to say if they squeeze out of the group by a point or 2, let off the hook by a French team throwing out a second string team against them? (assuming they don't do it against everyone else)

Fair play though, you can only play the opposition that's infront of you and a win is a win, Munster will kick on from here and improve no doubt, but the set piece must be a major concern that needs sorting!

A bigger concern would be the gameplan the coach brought to the table tonight given the conditions, should have been played a much tighter game.

That is not to say that I don't I don't appreciate the type of game that they are trying to move towards, if and when it does click I think it they will be an excellent team to watch. .

You are right that the lineout was a joke tonight.

Hazys

Just back from the game, a very disappointing win indeed. All the talk of them lying down and taking a beating (what were we thinking?) went out the window after the first 10 mins. They were good but not great and Munster were poor. Only plus from this is Montauban will prob give a proper go off the H Cup and hopefully take points off Clermont and Sale

Stadium was class to see for the first time, but there were apparently huge problems getting people in near kick off. A good % of the east stand had empty seats for the first 20 mins.

Performance on the field was poor, we picked up where we left off against Glasgow. Luck to escape with the win. Warrick was the one bright spot of the 2nd half.

Atomsphere was shocking so quiet as compared to last season. I dont know if it was just adjusting to the new surrondings or the edgy performance on the field that muted the crowd, but it wasnt the Thomond i grew to love, i'll have to wait to see after a few more games to judge properly. But the team didnt get the lift it needed off the crowd.

[Jackass]

Interesting you say that, I haven't been down to new Thomond yet, but from the TV last week anyway, I couldn't help but get the impression that the noise just isn't the same?

I don't know, for some reason it reminded me of an Ospreys game (last week), great stadium but not much atmosphere?

I'm sure it's a bedding in thing though, it's hard to imagine Thomond with anything other than a fantastic atmosphere. I'll be down there next year though to see for myself for the return ML fixture.

JWAD

Hazys wrote: »

Atomsphere was shocking so quiet as compared to last season. I dont know if it was just adjusting to the new surrondings or the edgy performance on the field that muted the crowd, but it wasnt the Thomond i grew to love, i'll have to wait to see after a few more games to judge properly. But the team didnt get the lift it needed off the crowd.

I'd say it was more to do with the game. Nobody expected Montauban to be that good.

JWAD

Inquitus wrote: »

The ELV's and Munster's evolution have killed the old Munster way, the breakdown is far less assured for either side then it was in previous years (ELV's), and a consequence so is taking the ball around the fringes (ELV's), the maul as a weapon is also dimmed to a pale shade of it's former self(ELV's), and our strength is now in the forwards and out wide in equal measure(New Munster). I was fearful of the rain tonight, not welcoming it as I would have in years gone by.

Inq

Munster's inability to hold onto the ball had bugger all to do with the ELVs. Its not as if they were trying three-man cut-out passes all the time. Sure they've developed a changing gameplan over the past couple of years (and this is for the better in my opinion) but the skills needed do not require a degree in rocket science.

One problem throughout rugby union teams is this determination to have to shoot a spin-pass all the time, even with a player a short distance away.

The ELVs do not affect the ruck/breakdown, by the way. There are no variations in ruck laws. The ruck is just reffed now as it should always have been.

timmywex

There is of course new laws for the ruck! Once the third man is in it becomes a non contest pretty much! If the ref judges that the person would fall from their feet if pushed in the back, then they cannot pick the ball, compared to old rules whereby if you were standing you were grand, now, my head has to be above my waist nearly, put a foot over the ruck etc etc....


The elv's dont suit munster at all, we'll see how leinster get on today....

JWAD

timmywex wrote: »

There is of course new laws for the ruck! Once the third man is in it becomes a non contest pretty much! If the ref judges that the person would fall from their feet if pushed in the back, then they cannot pick the ball, compared to old rules whereby if you were standing you were grand, now, my head has to be above my waist nearly, put a foot over the ruck etc etc....


The elv's dont suit munster at all, we'll see how leinster get on today....

They're not new laws. Not even variations. Look through the list of 13 ELVs. Do you see the ruck mentioned? No.
The ruck is being reffed as it should have been according to the laws of the game. The IRB has decided to instruct referees to officate the ruck as they should be in order to make them competitive.

Hazys

JWAD wrote: »

I'd say it was more to do with the game. Nobody expected Montauban to be that good.

Lets hope so cos it went eerily quiet at times

RuggieBear

timmywex wrote: »

There is of course new laws for the ruck! Once the third man is in it becomes a non contest pretty much! If the ref judges that the person would fall from their feet if pushed in the back, then they cannot pick the ball, compared to old rules whereby if you were standing you were grand, now, my head has to be above my waist nearly, put a foot over the ruck etc etc....


The elv's dont suit munster at all, we'll see how leinster get on today....

I actually think they suit Munster quite well.

You need to have a very very good kicker with the elv as you can't kick the ball dead half the time now so you have to be super accurate and keep the ball in the field (or at least make sure the ball bounces in the field of play before touch). ROG is excellent at this.

Inquitus

I think Munster have adjusted well to the new ELV's, better than most sides, but we are getting killed by them in 2 areas:

1) The re-enforcement of the ruck laws, we are getting pinged off the park.
2) The lineout changes, we really have not adjusted to these well, we had a few 5m lineouts last night and we were either turned over or had crappy ball, add in general crapness on our ball throughout the season to date,

We have had similar performances at different stages of the HC in the past, and still gone on to contest, so I am not especially worried, the key to last night was getting out of it with the win, a defeat would have been nigh on catastrophic.

- Harlequins at Thomond 15-9
- Perpignan at Lansdowne 19-10
- Saracens at Ricoh 18-16

Inq

phog

Munster got out of jail last night, poor team performance, lots of errors or poor support when retaining the ball would have led to a score.

I thought the atmosphere was better than last week with less to get excited about. Some of the poor atmosphere is down to people having to go to where their ticket is for - splitting groups up, the old TP was much more supporter friendly.

Slae getting the BP in Clermont probaly throws the cat among the pidgeons but hey that H/Cup rugby, roll on next week.

BTW - congrats to Connacht and Leinster on their excellent starts to their campaigns.

louthandproud

phog wrote: »

Munster got out of jail last night, poor team performance, lots of errors or poor support when retaining the ball would have led to a score.

I thought the atmosphere was better than last week with less to get excited about. Some of the poor atmosphere is down to people having to go to where their ticket is for - splitting groups up, the old TP was much more supporter friendly.

Slae getting the BP in Clermont probaly throws the cat among the pidgeons but hey that H/Cup rugby, roll on next week.

BTW - congrats to Connacht and Leinster on their excellent starts to their campaigns.

A good % of the old thomand park is still as it was. Apart from the old seated area, most of the terracing still remains.

phog

louthandproud wrote: »

A good % of the old thomand park is still as it was. Apart from the old seated area, most of the terracing still remains.

The terracing looks the same but the ET is sectioned in two and the WT is sectioned in four, the stewards will only allow you enter the section that your ticket is for.

In previous years your ticket got you into the ground and you could nearly always manage to move round to the terrace that most of your friends were in.

louthandproud

phog wrote: »

The terracing looks the same but the ET is sectioned in two and the WT is sectioned in four, the stewards will only allow you enter the section that your ticket is for.

In previous years your ticket got you into the ground and you could nearly always manage to move round to the terrace that most of your friends were in.

Fair enough, well I suppose I should have waited to actually go to the new version of Thomond before I commented.

Pity they have done that, doesn't seem to any good reason I can think of. I'm hopeful though HQ will get it's old edge back and soon!

suppafly

Munster really had a lot of handleling errors. They seemed to be rushing alot of things and trying to run out when it wasn't on.

louthandproud wrote: »

Fair enough, well I suppose I should have waited to actually go to the new version of Thomond before I commented.

Pity they have done that, doesn't seem to any good reason I can think of. I'm hopeful though HQ will get it's old edge back and soon!

yeah it looks a bit strange alright. Its also a back further from the pitch. like on the east terrace its right up on the pitch. Dunno why they couldn't make it the same as the east terrace? Also there isn't nearly enough turnstiles for people to get in. The queues were huge. i got to the ground at like 7:50 after a 3hr bus ride from cork and then it took us till 8:15 to get into the stadium. I'd say there were literally a few thousand still outside the ground trying to get in. I heard that a number of the turnstile were broken too. Hopefully they fix some of these problems fo the next match

Crash

Stuff like thats always gonna occur for a first major night out - murphys law. I'd say they'll have it sorted for the next game - if it happens then, then they need a bating :P

juvenal

There are highlights of this and all the European matches at the weekend on Sky Sports 1 right now - not Sky Sports Xtra as advertised/in your digi-guide.

They've just shown Toulouse-Bath first, and are analysing that match, rest to follow. Programme will run until after 11.30pm due to late finish in Darts.