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Austria's Haider dies in accident

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24

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    #32
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    dante18 wrote: »
    He was honouring the men who served in the SS, most of whom were not involved in war crimes and most of whom fought bravely on behalf of their country.
    Methinks you need to read up on what the Waffen SS actually was and what they did.
    dante18 wrote: »
    They were soldiers obeying orders and were made to endure sacrifices and hardships at the hands of the nazis.
    :rolleyes:

    They were free-thinking individuals who were told to do some fairly nasty **** and they did it. Simple as.
    dante18 wrote: »
    I think it's possible he was being ironic but even if he wasn't what's wrong with praising the third reich's employment policy?
    Are you serious? You are aware of the number of people who died due to forced labour under the Nazis, aren’t you?
    dante18 wrote: »
    And if it wasn't, does it really make much of a difference referring to a concentration camp as a punishment camp?
    You know it does. Punishment would involve serving a sentence and then being released. Concentration is the rounding up of an ethnic minority and generally leaving them to die (or giving them a little help along the way).
    dante18 wrote: »
    People who serve in the army are deserving of honour and respect in public life.
    Complete and utter horsebollocks.

    Are the Janjaweed deserving of respect?
    dante18 wrote: »
    Even if that army has committed war crimes, the soldiers who risk their lives in the service of their country without committing war crimes deserve to be honoured by their descendants.
    Why? Every British national has to respect and honour every member of the British armed forces that has not been convicted of war crimes, do they (just picking Britain as an example)?
    dante18 wrote: »
    I think he had a positively slanted view of the people who lived and fought under the Third Reich which is a different thing.
    No it is not different. The Nazis could not have done what they did without the support of the people.
    dante18 wrote: »
    For example, here's a statement he signed when his party were in government in Austria

    "nationalism, dictatorship and intolerance brought war, xenophobia, bondage, racism and mass murder... [They] are an exhortation to permanent alertness against all forms of dictatorship and totalitarianism."
    Context? Source?


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    #33
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    jimmi08 wrote: »
    He was one of the few politicians who I would respect as he was not afraid to speak his mind and he also stood up to the dictators running the EU.
    You mean the EU stood up to this potential dictator, right?


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    #34
    jimmi08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭jimmi08


    djpbarry wrote: »
    You mean the EU stood up to this potential dictator, right?

    No, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that he stood by his nationalist views even though several EU leaders gave him hassle for doing so. I applaud his willingness to stand by what he felt was right and not backing down.


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    #35
    dante18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭dante18


    djpbarry wrote:
    Why?

    Why should we honour and commemorate the people who have risked and sacrificed their lives in our defence? The fact that you would even have to ask such a question really says a lot about your politics.

    To paraphrase something George Orwell wrote, you sleep safely in your bed at night because rough men are out there who are prepared to kill and risk being killed on your behalf. If we don't honour the sacrifices those people make in both war and in peace then we might notice a reduction in the number people willing to make those kinds of sacrifices in the future.

    djpbarry wrote:
    Every British national has to respect and honour every member of the British armed forces that has not been convicted of war crimes, do they (just picking Britain as an example)?

    Absolutely, it should be the same with every other nation as well - Irish, Russian, American, German, Austrian. A nation that doesn't honour its war-dead doesn't deserve to call itself a nation.

    I can similarities between the way German and Austrian veterans were treated at the end of the second world war with the way Irish men who served in the British army were treated at the end of the first world war. I think both groups were unfairly treated by their fellow countrymen. Their sacrifices deserved greater national recognition and I think that was the point that Jorg Haider was making when he made those comments honouring the SS men.

    djpbarry wrote:
    Context? Source?

    I found it on this link under the heading February 2000
    http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2000/214/haiderquotes.html


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    #36
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    dante18 wrote: »
    That's not a nice thing to say about a man who just lost his life in a car crash. You might not see his passing as being any great loss but I'm sure his 90 year old mother probably feels differently.

    It's very un-Irish to speak so callously of a man's death like that.

    If Robert Mugabe died I'd be delighted, there are just some people that its not possible to feel sorry for.


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    #37
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    dante18 wrote: »
    Why should we honour and commemorate the people who have risked and sacrificed their lives in our defence?
    That’s not what I asked. What I asked was should we honour and respect all of them unconditionally? A solider should be respected if they are worthy of respect, not just because they are a soldier.
    dante18 wrote: »
    A nation that doesn't honour its war-dead doesn't deserve to call itself a nation.
    I would say that depends on the war, or even the battle. For example, the soldiers responsible for Srebrenica Massacre are not worthy of honour or respect and I would have serious reservations about anyone who claims that they are.
    dante18 wrote: »
    I found it on this link under the heading February 2000
    http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2000/214/haiderquotes.html
    In that very same article, following the quote that you provided is another from Haider where he tells us what he thinks of the declaration he signed:

    “It is an affront to the public that such matters of course have to be signed time and again. I have no intention to wander about in the world and apologize for all kinds of things.”


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    #38
    dante18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭dante18


    BlaasForRafa wrote:
    If Robert Mugabe died I'd be delighted, there are just some people that its not possible to feel sorry for.
    Robert Mugabe is in a completely different league to Jorg Haider. Robert Mugabe did bad things, Jorg Haider merely said (which is arguable) bad things. Robert Mugabe's death would be a good thing because it would probably improve things for the people of his country.

    djpbarry wrote:
    What I asked was should we honour and respect all of them unconditionally?
    No, we shouldn't honour and respect all of them unconditionally. I never suggested that we should.

    djpbarry wrote:
    A solider should be respected if they are worthy of respect, not just because they are a soldier.
    I disagree. Anyone who puts their lives at risk in combat defending their country deserves respect for that fact alone. That respect can be taken from them if they are involved in dishonourable behaviour but they if they carry out their orders within the legally defined parameters of acceptable warfare then those people deserve not just respect but gratitude from present and future generations of their fellow-countrymen.

    djpbarry wrote:
    In that very same article, following the quote that you provided is another from Haider where he tells us what he thinks of the declaration he signed:

    “It is an affront to the public that such matters of course have to be signed time and again. I have no intention to wander about in the world and apologize for all kinds of things.”

    How would you feel if every day before you started work you were made to sign a statement declaring that you think Nelson Mandela is a great man and a living saint? I'm sure you might get a bit sick of it after a while and you might resent having to continually sign it. It wouldn't mean that you didn't think Nelson Mandela was a great man though.


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    #39
    1968
    Registered Users Posts: 720 ✭✭✭1968


    good riddance to bad rubbish.


    ----


    moral of the story?

    Nazis shouldn't drive.

    They shouldn’t be driving day or night
    They can’t think left, they can only think right
    The sun reflects off their bald head
    Like Ian Stuart they’re going to wind up dead

    Nazis… shouldn’t drive (their cars)

    They should’ve paid attention in driver’s ed
    Instead of hating foreigners, queers and reds
    Keep your eyes on the highway you loser thug
    Now you’re squished on the highway like a bug

    Ian, Ian, King of the Pit, no friend to you or me
    Aaaaaaaaaaaah! Watch out for that tree!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKeS8FZ4Oqk


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    #40
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    dante18 wrote: »
    No, we shouldn't honour and respect all of them unconditionally.
    ...
    Anyone who puts their lives at risk in combat defending their country deserves respect for that fact alone.
    That's a bit of a contradiction, isn't it?
    dante18 wrote: »
    How would you feel if every day before you started work you were made to sign a statement declaring that you think Nelson Mandela is a great man and a living saint? I'm sure you might get a bit sick of it after a while and you might resent having to continually sign it. It wouldn't mean that you didn't think Nelson Mandela was a great man though.
    Not quite the same thing though, is it? Wolfgang Schüssel had Haider sign the statement as a condition of approval for their coalition. In other words, it was a one off.


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    #41
    Ziggurat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Ziggurat


    dante18 wrote: »
    I disagree. Anyone who puts their lives at risk in combat defending their country deserves respect for that fact alone. That respect can be taken from them if they are involved in dishonourable behaviour but they if they carry out their orders within the legally defined parameters of acceptable warfare then those people deserve not just respect but gratitude from present and future generations of their fellow-countrymen.

    And if the leader of said country is a genocidal maniac, that too deserves respect?

    Whether orders are carried out within the law or not should not determine whether respect is warranted, or rather should not be the sole consideration. The intent behind orders plays a part.
    I do not hate the ordinary soldiers who fought under Nazi Germany but neither do I respect them. I pity them that they were led on to fight for such a monster.

    They may have had the best of intentions (protecting their country) but in the words of Samuel Johnson, "Hell is paved with good intentions."


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    #42
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,788 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7671885.stm

    I don't have any respect for a guy that drives while drunk. It just shows he was an arrogant friger till the end.


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    #43
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Hmm he was a drunk driver as well as all the other "attributes" he had. What a hero!


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    #44
    Jesus Trash Can
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Jesus Trash Can


    I thought he was just another pampered upper class thug in a suit. If you haven't already noticed, Ireland already has a right wing government. Lets hope it fogs up here too preferably around the environs of Leinster House after the bar is closed.


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    #45
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,518 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    JWAD wrote: »
    Why do people like you have always have stick a little tagger on those who might think on the contrary of your point of view?
    "The left"?
    :rolleyes:

    I can imagine that strand of politics and views running through those who say "no loss". As happens my own opinion has gone down on him since it has been revealed he was a drink-driver.


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    #46
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,518 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    djpbarry wrote: »
    You mean the EU stood up to this potential dictator, right?

    Come on you're going overboard. Potential dictator?


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    #47
    TheDude2008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭TheDude2008


    R.I.P A great man and politician.


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    #48
    JWAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭JWAD


    TheDude2008 wrote: »
    R.I.P A great man and politician.

    A great man and politician died? Who was that then?


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    #49
    TheDude2008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭TheDude2008


    Read the title of the thread.


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    #50
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,440 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    TheDude2008 wrote: »
    R.I.P A great man and politician.

    Great Man: n. One who portrays a moral political outlook; only to then kill himself by driving at illegal speeds while illegally under the influence of drink, thus putting others lives at risk.

    Great morals.

    As someone said, the only thing 'great' about this is the fact that he didn't take someone else with him.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #51
    JWAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭JWAD


    TheDude2008 wrote: »
    Read the title of the thread.
    I did. Thats why I was wondering why a great man and politician was being mentioned in a Haider thread.


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    #52
    TheDude2008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭TheDude2008


    Because haider was a great man. Now his party and that of the other right wing party are in power in Austria it is only a matter of time before we have a si,milar party in Ireland, and they will get massive support, i for one cant wait.


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    #53
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,440 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    TheDude2008 wrote: »
    Because haider was a great man. Now his party and that of the other right wing party are in power in Austria it is only a matter of time before we have a si,milar party in Ireland, and they will get massive support, i for one cant wait.

    ...but if they have no respect for the law, what good will that do? There's enough self-important holier-than-thou **** in Dail Eireann as things stand without adding a far-right element to it.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #54
    Imposter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭Imposter


    TheDude2008 wrote: »
    Because haider was a great man. Now his party and that of the other right wing party are in power in Austria it is only a matter of time before we have a si,milar party in Ireland, and they will get massive support, i for one cant wait.
    They're not in power. The make-up of the government has still to be decided. Add to that that there are a lot of hostilities between the FPÖ and the BZÖ and it's debateable if they can reach agreement with themselves never mind anyone else in order to form a coalition.

    I also fail to see how events in Austria mean that there'll be a similar party in Ireland!


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    #55
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    Can only hope that he didn't die instantly and every second was painfull right up until the last!!

    Fascism and the people who try and spread it are not fit to breath oxygen in a modern society!


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    #56
    TheDude2008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭TheDude2008


    previous poster unbelievable left wing bleeding heart idiot


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    #57
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    TheDude2008 wrote: »
    previous poster unbelievable left wing bleeding heart idiot

    Just thankfull my heart wasn't bleeding as much as his was:D:eek::pac:

    Why do you believe fascism should have a place in a modern society? tell me why if so?


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    #58
    Allah Hu Akbar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 218 ✭✭Allah Hu Akbar


    TheDude2008 wrote: »
    R.I.P A great man and politician.


    Are you off your head?


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    #59
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    TheDude2008 wrote: »
    Because haider was a great man. Now his party and that of the other right wing party are in power in Austria it is only a matter of time before we have a si,milar party in Ireland, and they will get massive support, i for one cant wait.

    Eh where did that massive leap of logic come from? Do you actually know anything about Irish politics?


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    #60
    JWAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭JWAD


    TheDude2008 wrote: »
    Because haider was a great man. Now his party and that of the other right wing party are in power in Austria it is only a matter of time before we have a si,milar party in Ireland, and they will get massive support, i for one cant wait.
    You're free to look to whatever you want. Just what Ireland needs.............another political party, especially a jackboot party which would be at home in Stormfront :rolleyes:
    Since you're in ultra-speculative mode: this imaginary party of yours wouldnt get massive support. With turnout records in the country as p*ss poor as they are, they'd lose before you could say 'xenophobia' and I dont think Irish people would stoop as low in supporting a party based on the agenda I think you make it plain that you would follow.
    He wasnt a great man. There are many reasons why I will never mourn the passing this drunk driving speedster who got what any drunk driving speedster deserves and I've mentioned them earlier in the thread.

    Oh well, look on the bright side: At least no-one else was killed in the incident.
    His gravestone should read: "Beneath This Sod.............Lies Another"


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    #61
    dathi1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭dathi1


    Great guy. His legacy will influence future progressive national movements throughout Europe and here in Ireland.

    RIP


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