Austria's Haider dies in accident

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dathi1 wrote: »

Great guy. His legacy will influence future progressive national movements throughout Europe and here in Ireland.

RIP

Yes, indeed. Austria's got a great track record of far-right politicans influencing Europe. Thank God this guy stopped himself in time.

djpbarry

TheDude2008 wrote: »

...it is only a matter of time before we have a si,milar party in Ireland, and they will get massive support...

We already do. They received a whopping 1,300 first-preference votes in the 2007 general election.

dsmythy wrote: »

Come on you're going overboard. Potential dictator?

Of course I'm going overboard; so was the poster I was replying to.

Acacia

djpbarry wrote: »

We already do. They received a whopping 1,300 first-preference votes in the 2007 general election.

That's quite worrying. With the economy in dire straits, I fear parties such as this will gain even more popularity.

While I wouldn't wish death on anyone or be happy at somebody's death, I don't agree with Haider's political values at all. It will be a sad day if we get someone like him becoming popular or powerful in Ireland.

TheDude2008 wrote: »

previous poster unbelievable left wing bleeding heart idiot

*Yawn*
How original. Because you can't disagree with fascism without being a bleeding heart liberal...;)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Acacia wrote: »

That's quite worrying. With the economy in dire straits, I fear parties such as this will gain even more popularity.

While I wouldn't wish death on anyone or be happy at somebody's death, I don't agree with Haider's political values at all. It will be a sad day if we get someone like him becoming popular or powerful in Ireland.



*Yawn*
How original. Because you can't disagree with fascism without being a bleeding heart liberal...;)

I wouldn't worry - apparently, towards the end of his career, he was actually veering to the left...

djpbarry

Acacia wrote: »

That's quite worrying. With the economy in dire straits, I fear parties such as this will gain even more popularity.

I was actually being sarcastic. 1,300 votes is about 0.06% of the popular vote - it's nothing.

Acacia

djpbarry wrote: »

I was actually being sarcastic. 1,300 votes is about 0.06% of the popular vote - it's nothing.

I meant it's worrying that such a party exists in the first place. Hopefully, they will stay un-popular.

djpbarry

Acacia wrote: »

I meant it's worrying that such a party exists in the first place. Hopefully, they will stay un-popular.

Ah, extremists exist in every society and always will; sure look at the support for Haider in this thread.

inforfun

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Can only hope that he didn't die instantly and every second was painfull right up until the last!!

Fascism and the people who try and spread it are not fit to breath oxygen in a modern society!

People with another opinion then yours should die/ be killed?

Sounds a bit as fascism to me....

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

djpbarry wrote: »

Ah, extremists exist in every society and always will; sure look at the support for Haider in this thread.

The "support for Heider in this thread" generally amounts to four or five right-wing borderline-racists who completely ignore the points made that 1) He was a hypocrit and a lawbreaker and 2) He had no problem risking other peoples' lives.

dante18

djpbarry wrote:

I was actually being sarcastic. 1,300 votes is about 0.06% of the popular vote - it's nothing.

The German National Socialist Workers party gained only 2.6% of the vote in the 1928 German general election. By the time of the 1930 Reichstag elections it had gained 18% of the vote making it the second biggest party in the Reichstag. Ten years later its leader had been made the dictator of Germany without the firing a single shot.

I think a nationalist party committed to solving the immigration problem could do very well in Ireland under the current economic climate. That's why it's in the interests of the moderate, mainstream parties to bring the problem under control now before it's too late. If they don't solve the problem soon they might find it being solved for them by people more extreme than Jorg Haider.

djpbarry wrote:

Ah, extremists exist in every society and always will; sure look at the support for Haider in this thread.

Our share of the population doesn't remain static though. During times of high immigration our numbers tend to increase and we tend to make our presence felt. During a recession and a time of high immigration we even gain support from people who wouldn't normally share our views and that can propel us into power. I see a bright future for the nationalist right in Europe.

JWAD

dante18 wrote: »

The German National Socialist Workers party gained only 2.6% of the vote in the 1928 German general election. By the time of the 1930 Reichstag elections it had gained 18% of the vote making it the second biggest party in the Reichstag

Their country was bankrupt after the Versailles treaty following a war in which they were a protagonist and instigator. Since you're on the comparison warpath here, how does this compare to Ireland?

dante18 wrote: »

Ten years later its leader had been made the dictator of Germany without the firing a single shot

Not true. Plenty of opponents, political or otherwise died as that particular party augmented its populism agenda of ultra-nationalism and gained power. "Without a shot"? Just what literature ARE you reading exactly??? :rolleyes:

dante18 wrote: »

During a recession and a time of high immigration we even gain support from people who wouldn't normally share our views and that can propel us into power. I see a bright future for the nationalist right in Europe.

Immigration, as has been pointed out to you ad nauseum in the other thread has decreased. Not fast enough for the everyday xenophobe but definitely not remaining constant enough or threatening enough to warrant a wave of jack-boot parties going for election, even in a coalition.

dante18

JWAD wrote:

Their country was bankrupt after the Versailles treaty following a war in which they were a protagonist and instigator. Since you're on the comparison warpath here, how does this compare to Ireland?

I wasn't comparing the situation in Germany with the current situation in Ireland. I was using Germany in the 1930s as an example of how quickly circumstances can change and how a party with a very low level of support in one election can see a massive increase in its support in the following election.

JWAD wrote:

Not true. Plenty of opponents, political or otherwise died as that particular party augmented its populism agenda of ultra-nationalism and gained power.

Maybe some people did lose their lives but I don't think that was part of the Nazis strategy to gain power. The Nazis gained power mostly through peaceful and democratic means.

JWAD wrote:

Immigration, as has been pointed out to you ad nauseum in the other thread has decreased.

It's still very high though. We're still taking in far more people than our economy needs. We need a massive reduction in numbers to bring us back to a level in line with our European neighbours.

JWAD wrote:

Not fast enough for the everyday xenophobe but definitely not remaining constant enough or threatening enough to warrant a wave of jack-boot parties going for election, even in a coalition.

Immigration in Britain is much lower than it is in Ireland and look at how big a political issue it is over there. Over a million people voted for the BNP in the last general election. If a similar party made an appearance in Ireland you would see even greater support from the Irish electorate. I myself would probably vote for it because I think the immigration problem has gotten out of control in this country and it's time for us to send a message to the government to let them know that enough is enough.

Noopti

dante18 wrote: »

Maybe some people did lose their lives but I don't think that was part of the Nazis strategy to gain power. The Nazis gained power mostly through peaceful and democratic means.

Where did you learn history?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

djpbarry

dante18 wrote: »

Ten years later its leader had been made the dictator of Germany without the firing a single shot.

dante18 wrote: »

The Nazis gained power mostly through peaceful and democratic means.

You're rose-tinted view of the Nazis is, quite frankly, staggering.

dante18 wrote: »

I think a nationalist party committed to solving the immigration problem could do very well in Ireland...

Ah yes, the "immigration problem"; being the nationalist that you are, I presume you have a "solution" to this "problem"?

dante18 wrote: »

We're still taking in far more people than our economy needs. We need a massive reduction in numbers to bring us back to a level in line with our European neighbours.

This was argued with you at length in another thread in which you refused to acknowledge most of the information that was presented. In fact, there are still a number of points made by myself and JWAD in that particular thread that you have yet to address. I see little point in rehashing the same arguments here.

dante18 wrote: »

Immigration in Britain is much lower than it is in Ireland and look at how big a political issue it is over there. Over a million people voted for the BNP in the last general election. If a similar party made an appearance in Ireland you would see even greater support from the Irish electorate.

You think half the electorate (or more) would vote for a BNP-style part in Ireland? Considering the low level of support that Sinn Féin enjoys, I find such a scenario extremely unlikely.

dante18

Noopti wrote: »

Where did you learn history?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

That was an internal party affair that occurred after they had gained power. The Nazis may have been involved in violence but I don't think they used violence to gain power. They operated as a political party and gained power through democratic and legal means.

EuskalHerria

inforfun wrote: »

People with another opinion then yours should die/ be killed?

Sounds a bit as fascism to me....

My apologies for disliking people who incite hatred against others that don't fit into their ideals, who spread and encourage small minded trains of thought and who believe primarily in one race beign 1st class citizens and others below them.

I beleive most fascist are pretty basically brainwashed and sidetracked from the reality of most situations by people like haider, so while i believe that fascist could possibly be thought the error in there ways i also believe people like haider and leaders in parties such as the bnp who consciously spread their dirt to others are comparatively not fit to live with people who are prematurely taken from this world.

Noopti

No they didn't. They forcibly removed and disbanded any opposition parties after the election of 1933. There was nothing democratic about it.

dante18

EuskalHerria wrote:

My apologies for disliking people who incite hatred against others

Are you not inciting hatred of fascists? If you dislike people who incite hatred against others, don't you think people might find the same reason to dislike people such as yourself?

EuskalHerria wrote:

that don't fit into their ideals, who spread and encourage small minded trains of thought and who believe primarily in one race beign 1st class citizens and others below them.

That's not what fascists believe. They don't want to subjugate other races or treat them like second-class citizens. They just want to preserve their own race and nation. Someone can love their own race without automatically hating other races.

Noopti wrote:

No they didn't. They forcibly removed and disbanded any opposition parties after the election of 1933. There was nothing democratic about it.

That was after they gained power. I was talking about before they gained power. They did a lot of bad things after they gained power but before that they were mostly a legitimate political party who operated as legally and as democratically as their opponents.

EuskalHerria

Are you not inciting hatred of fascists? If you dislike people who incite hatred against others, don't you think people might find the same reason to dislike people such as yourself?

I'm not inciting hatred of fascists, i think that their political way of thinking kis false and would discourage people against such extreme view points by making people see rationality that their way of life is not under threat by others who come from another race or nation.

That's not what fascists believe. They don't want to subjugate other races or treat them like second-class citizens. They just want to preserve their own race and nation. Someone can love their own race without automatically hating other races.

But that is just ridiculous paranoia? Firstly i love this country and i do not see the way of life here being threatend by the immigrant community curently in ireland. Why do fascist believe that their way of living is first of all important enough to preserve and secondly that others will threthen their race/nation?

Noopti

They gained a democratic majority first yes. But they consolidated that power through wholly undemocratic and illegal means.

They were only engaged democratically, to some extent, before this because that was the only way to get their "foot in the door" so the speak. It was a means to an end for them, not because they believed in the democratic process. Once they could do away with it, they did.

JWAD

dante18 wrote: »

I wasn't comparing the situation in Germany with the current situation in Ireland. I was using Germany in the 1930s as an example of how quickly circumstances can change and how a party with a very low level of support in one election can see a massive increase in its support in the following election

Yes indeed............you compared it :rolleyes:

dante18 wrote: »

Maybe some people did lose their lives but I don't think that was part of the Nazis strategy to gain power. The Nazis gained power mostly through peaceful and democratic means

Not one to 'putsch' a point home but ffs, you are naive if you believe this.

dante18 wrote: »

It's still very high though. We're still taking in far more people than our economy needs. We need a massive reduction in numbers to bring us back to a level in line with our European neighbours

Immigration in Britain is much lower than it is in Ireland and look at how big a political issue it is over there. Over a million people voted for the BNP in the last general election. If a similar party made an appearance in Ireland you would see even greater support from the Irish electorate. I myself would probably vote for it because I think the immigration problem has gotten out of control in this country and it's time for us to send a message to the government to let them know that enough is enough.

This has been dealt with in the other thread............however a party running on a single ticket will never get anywhere in this country (since you're speculating then so will I). It is a coalition country destined for this situation because there is simply nothing between the main parties. A party running for election with a right-wing movement party? Fat chance. Even in the reddest neck area of QLD in Australia, Pauline Hanson's party got their arse handed to them on a platter when people saw through the populism.

I don't think the immigration levels are problematic. The amount of nationals and non-nationals who bleed the system dry refusing to work or working black problematic. Distinguishing one of these over the other, excuses the other.
Everything you and some of the others have posted on the matter say nothing but 'F**k off back to where you're from' to my girlfriend and also my family on my mother's side.

dsmythy

Noopti wrote: »

They gained a democratic majority first yes. But they consolidated that power through wholly undemocratic and illegal means.

They were only engaged democratically, to some extent, before this because that was the only way to get their "foot in the door" so the speak. It was a means to an end for them, not because they believed in the democratic process. Once they could do away with it, they did.

Naturally it helped that more mainstream conservatives didn't object too loudly about the expulsion of the Communists and some Social Democrats nor did Hindenburg do much to stop it either, despite his earlier misgivings about Hitler as Chancellor.

inforfun

EuskalHerria wrote: »

I'm not inciting hatred of fascists, i think that their political way of thinking kis false and would discourage people against such extreme view points by making people see rationality that their way of life is not under threat by others who come from another race or nation.

Nope, you dont incite hatred.

Yet you still declare to be happy Haider died since you think people with ideas like the Haiders of this world are not worth the oxygen they are breathing.

Class.

JWAD

inforfun wrote: »

Nope, you dont incite hatred.

Yet you still declare to be happy Haider died since you think people with ideas like the Haiders of this world are not worth the oxygen they are breathing.

Class.

Yes its class when you fail to point out where the poster in question actually 'incites' others to do anything apart from posting anonymously on a bloody internet forum.

dsmythy

djpbarry wrote: »

We already do. They received a whopping 1,300 first-preference votes in the 2007 general election.

The IMC were one issue candidates who went down on the ballot as independents. Of course they didn't do too well. They seem confused as to whether they are a pressure group or a party. I suggest they stick to the former.

With regards to Irish groups similar to the FPO and BNP, they are non-existent, and i know of no individual capable of becoming a figurehead for future groups.

EuskalHerria

inforfun wrote: »

Nope, you dont incite hatred.

Yet you still declare to be happy Haider died since you think people with ideas like the Haiders of this world are not worth the oxygen they are breathing.

Class.

I don't think it is class at all? I think people like haider incite their hatred and exploit un-educated paranoia that people have about certain minorities that may be coming to their countries. I don't agree with exploitation in any form.

And people like haider and hitler no i am not sorry they are dead why would i be?

dsmythy

EuskalHerria wrote: »

I don't think it is class at all? I think people like haider incite their hatred and exploit un-educated paranoia that people have about certain minorities that may be coming to their countries. I don't agree with exploitation in any form.

And people like haider and hitler no i am not sorry they are dead why would i be?

Must be a lot of "uneducated" people in Austria.

If you don't care about Haider's death then that's your opinion. But some are gloating of the fact which i think is wrong.

EuskalHerria

Must be a lot of "uneducated" people in Austria.

Or a lot of people who are not very knowledgeable about ethnic minorities and have generalisations and fears about them, fears which people like haider exploit.

If you don't care about Haider's death then that's your opinion. But some are gloating of the fact which i think is wrong

I don't see the gloating in here but would you shed a tear for hitler may i ask? personally i think it a shame that sarkozy wasn't "takin' a spin" with heider.

JWAD

EuskalHerria wrote: »

personally i think it a shame that sarkozy wasn't "takin' a spin" with heider.

You see Sarkozy and Heider of the same mould????? :rolleyes:

EuskalHerria

JWAD wrote: »

You see Sarkozy and Heider of the same mould????? :rolleyes:

Not in the same extremes but i woulnd't have saddened me if he had be carpooling that day.