Anti-Irish Racism

javaboy

asdasd wrote: »

She didnt say different Island. To be fair.

+1. Sounds like the hairdresser wasn't all that ignorant to me.

Fratton Fred

púca-mór wrote: »

So very true... I read an article in history before about British Identity through the ages - basically, the english hated being associated with the boggers and farmers of Scotland, Ireland, Wales... but as soon as there was someone successful from any of those countries - they were brits... and then in those countries there were those who aspired to be british (like self hating [insert nationality])

i think that's a bit of urban myth tbh. i have heard it quoted many times but no one has ever given me an example of it happening.

Except of Course Andy Murray, he was almost british when he got through to the final of the US open, but the dozy scot blew it:D

púca-mór wrote: »

I have encountered so many irish views (lots of variables) on what they are. Things are far from simple.

I'm from Co. Down just north of the border by 50km...
I now study/live in Limerick, and i find it interesting to encounter the various opinions/ideas/beliefs of people.

I carry an Irish passport, I do not have a british passport (though if i wanted one i could get one - so could any person from teh republic if they live in britain for a year AFAIK.)

The other day while getting my hair cut in north tipp the girl said to me; "you're not from this country are you"...
i replied laughing, "yeah i am, i'm from up north..."
she said; "yeah that's what i meant."
And i suppose in someways she's not entirely wrong... Geo-politically - but fairly ignorant of the reality of a complex and convoluted situation.

You may laugh and troll - but it is genuinely hard to have your national identity questioned constantly - to feel you have to justify yourself to people.
I am proud to be an Irishman, and proud to be an Ulsterman.

Despite the onward march of European development and increasing globilisation national identity remains important culturally and generally at a local level.

Exactly, so how do people expect a brit, who couldn't give a monkey's chuff about Ireland, to get it right. I tell ya, a lot of people in England really tip toe around the whole irish/british thing because they don;t want to upset anyone. OK, call em all boggers, but don't get the whole unionist thingy wrong whatever you do.

púca-mór

asdasd wrote: »

She didnt say different Island. To be fair.

Hence why i said she was correct geo-politically.
I then explain that the situation is quite complex. This being the entire theme of my post. Why not go back and read it, i know it's a long one - and concentrating is dificult in this day and age. But you know what they say about thinking before you speak.

asdasd

This being the entire theme of my post. Why not go back and read it, i know it's a long one - and concentrating is dificult in this day and age. But you know what they say about thinking before you speak.

No I read it. The Island of Ireland is not a country i.e. State.

It is on the same Island as Northern Ireland - a part of the United Kingdom., yes, but that means nothing since lots of landmasses have borders. You may consider yourself Irish, and to a certain extent the Irish constitution agrees. On the other hand we Southerners cant really win, can we. A different class of Northerner may get upset if the haridresser said ' Sure that's really Ireland, no difference at all. Same country".

Latchy

DubArk wrote: »

Lived in London and worked in the square mile for about 18 years. During the time the IRA was blowing the **** out of the place.

Yes I had a few nasty “Paddy” remarks but mostly banter. I found the Irish living there had more hang ups then the English. There are stupid people everywhere to be honest so OP you’re going to meet people like that no matter where you are in the world!

I was asked by a guy in New York one time “where was I from?” I said, “Ireland” his reply was, “Did I get the subway from there into Manhattan every day?” beggars belief….

An English guy asked me one day “was Ireland in Wales”?

I was grateful to live and work in the UK when I did and to of had so many friends of all races; English very much included.

Have to agree with this .Some of the irish in Britain with the hang ups seem to go out of their way to dislike the English (who we must remember are on their own patch ) regardless of how they might behave towards them .If you are irish and only want to mix with irish people ,listen to only irish music ,only go to irish pubs ,well that is your choice and nothing wrong with it .I somtimes go to irish /english pubs with a mixture of both races but if you are living in a country were you have no time at all for the local natives then you might be better returning home to your own country tbh. Sure i have had the paddy banter thing but when in rome and all that .

btw ,i too seen the irish accent spray in one of the dublin tourist shops

púca-mór

asdasd wrote: »

No I read it. The Island of Ireland is not a country i.e. State.

It is on the same Island as Northern Ireland - a part of the United Kingdom., yes, but that means nothing since lots of landmasses have borders. You may consider yourself Irish, and to a certain extent the Irish constitution agrees. On the other hand we Southerners cant really win, can we. A different class of Northerner may get upset if the haridresser said ' Sure that's really Ireland, no difference at all. Same country".

The constitution, as you will likely know was recently changed to fit in with the GFA - which removed the territorial claim over the six counties. But the express hope of the constitution remains the reunification of our land.

I have studied land-law and international law. I am well aware of what constitutes a country, and I am all too familiar with the fact that our island has one state and one pseudo-state. So, once again - you and the hairdresser are correct on how the geo-political borders of this island are arranged - but, once again - my point is that this does not reflect the reality of the situation.

Whilst you, like many, might consider it a simple and b&w situation - there is a border and a different country with some inhabitants who 'think' they're irish - this does not reflect the ongoing political process of re-integration which is largely driven by the british government.

" You may consider yourself Irish, and to a certain extent the Irish constitution agrees. " - The Irish Consitution expressly gives the right to Irish natioanlity to anyone born on the island of Ireland, it's islands and seas. This is quite clear - i do not consider myself Irish. I am.

I agree with you that it is difficult to understand everyone's opinions, and Fratton is right that people do dodge it for fear of offending.

The point is, although my Irish nationality is secure legally.. as we can see from your comments asdasd and javaboy - it is far from secure in people's beliefs.

And tbh it is somewhat a slap in the face to have people consider you an immigrant or some sort of scab they would like to go away. I think this is largely the product of the Tiger and revisionist history - which has propogated a feeling towards anyone born north of the border as being foreigners etc.

javaboy

púca-mór wrote: »

The point is, although my Irish nationality is secure legally.. as we can see from your comments asdasd and javaboy - it is far from secure in people's beliefs.

And tbh it is somewhat a slap in the face to have people consider you an immigrant or some sort of scab they would like to go away. I think this is largely the product of the Tiger and revisionist history - which has propogated a feeling towards anyone born north of the border as being foreigners etc.

My point was that the hairdresser was perfectly correct to say what she did. Just because she didn't say "Oh you're not from the Republic of Ireland are you? You sound like you're from Northern Ireland which can be considered Ireland under the Good Friday Agreement if you like, or not, and after all the express hope of the Irish constitution is still reunification of the island etc. etc." it doesn't mean she's ignorant.

púca-mór

Which is why i asked if you had read my post. For i had qualified it by saying that she was correct, as were you! I do not dispute the fact that the border exists... i was never arguing that! I was talking about how it feels to be an irish person who is considered nominally irish. I was merely highlighting how it feels to be considered a foreigner in your own country.

I was not meaning to call the hairdresser ignorant as such - though her opinion, and it would appear yours does ignore various factors. Ireland has a very recent border in terms of landmasses in Europe, since it's creation it has been the subject of massive dispute, and it remains such an issue.
Thankfully we now talk about it peacefully.

It seems to me that some people consider matters north of the border someone else's problem. This is ignoring the numerous northerners who are part of the houses of the oireachtas, the President of Ireland (who you may know was born in belfast), not to speak of the large amount of irish people living in the six counties. So it is a different country, fine if you feel like that, but it is surely somewhat ignorant of the special situation that exists?

asdasd

The point is, although my Irish nationality is secure legally.. as we can see from your comments asdasd and javaboy - it is far from secure in people's beliefs.

Not at all. I see you as fully Irish. That said, despite the GFA, in terms of International law you do live in a different country, as she meant it. Germany has traditionally seen extra-territorial Germans as German, but the Volga Germans who were deep in the Soviet Union were still in a separate country. Similarly with Jews and Israel etc. A Jewish Israeli is not questioning the ethnic identity of an American Jew by saying he is from a different country. He is, and could still be 100% Jewish and under Israeli law have the right to return, but still be in a different country.

So I think you are being a bit thin skinned, since the hairdresser wasnt, and I am not, challenging your Irishness.

javaboy

púca-mór wrote: »

I was not meaning to call the hairdresser ignorant as such - though her opinion, and it would appear yours does ignore various factors.

See here's the problem. Just because I (and the hairdresser) didn't go into all the details about the situation, you're inferring somehow that I'm ignorant of those details or ignoring them.

púca-mór

Your quite right, i am thin skinned on this issue, i take a bit of joking. But as i said in my original post - it is tough after a while to shrug it off.
As i said, it is difficult for people born in the republic to understand what it feels like.

I agree with you that in international law it is a different country - but i don't think it is comparable to extra-territorial nationals. It is quite a different situation in that we had our country partitioned. I certainly don't think it's very similar to Israel - their state is based on Judaism - their affinity through fellow jews giving them an entitlement to their 'spiritual homeland' is pretty different to a secular national identity - we have no similar provisions in ireland for roman catholics born in other countries. --this is a side issue though.

Re: Javaboy - My appologies, you are correct. I will rephrase, if you are not ignorant of the matters i have talked about, then you have knowledge of those matters and found that they are not worth taking into consideration?

citytillidie

slipss wrote: »

Ahh for the love of god man, thicken your skin a bit, your Irish, we're the best slaggers in the world, just give it back to them twice as bad, or put on a Derry accent and threaten to blow their house to smithereenes, that's always good for a larf.

Hey leave us Derry ones out of it we did nothing ok

javaboy

púca-mór wrote: »

Re: Javaboy - My appologies, you are correct. I will rephrase, if you are not ignorant of the matters i have talked about, then you have knowledge of those matters and found that they are not worth taking into consideration?

I give up. If you're going to insist on painting me as someone who doesn't give a crap about Northern Ireland and the complicated issues surrounding the partition, fine. Go ahead.

púca-mór

javaboy i think you're making a mistake between my questioning your factual knowledge and understanding the feelings involved.

I'm sure your knowledge is very fine...

citytillidie

upmeath wrote: »

Stupid Canadian first and foremost, Jesusland just got bigger. Must have been an Albertan.

Yet +1 i got asked in Montreal what part of Canada is Ireland in when I said I was from Ireland

púca-mór

citytillidie wrote: »

Yet +1 i got asked in Montreal what part of Canada is Ireland in when I said I was from Ireland

is it in quebec?

In fairness the other day i said to an american girl; "right, and what state is pensylvania in?" - oh how you got me karma!

citytillidie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

i think that's a bit of urban myth tbh. i have heard it quoted many times but no one has ever given me an example of it happening.

Except of Course Andy Murray, he was almost british when he got through to the final of the US open, but the dozy scot blew it:D





Exactly, so how do people expect a brit, who couldn't give a monkey's chuff about Ireland, to get it right. I tell ya, a lot of people in England really tip toe around the whole irish/british thing because they don;t want to upset anyone. OK, call em all boggers, but don't get the whole unionist thingy wrong whatever you do.

Remember Sharon Davis working at the 1996 Olympics for the BBC claiming Michelle Smith to be british when she won all them gold medals.

And that interview that was quoted before on this thread between Kate Thorton and Samuel L Jackson that was on Five for some movie show

Fratton Fred

citytillidie wrote: »

Remember Sharon Davis working at the 1996 Olympics for the BBC claiming Michelle Smith to be british when she won all them gold medals.

And that interview that was quoted before on this thread between Kate Thorton and Samuel L Jackson that was on Five for some movie show

I was waiting for the Kate Thornton one to come out, it usually gets an airing in these sort of threads

I thought Michelle smith was British, until she got caught of course

Obvious stupidity, I know, but the eddie ervine one gets mentioned a lot and I'm sure its not the case. the BBC in particular is very ver PC with these sort of things.

Read the articles about Andy Murray and Tim Henman, they both get called english/British or Scottish/British with equal measure.

Cunny-Funt

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I was waiting for the Kate Thornton one to come out, it usually gets an airing in these sort of threads

Is there a clip of this? I'd love to see it. SLJ is a legend for that tbh. This happens on british TV a lot over the years and tbh it is a bit racist.

It just blows my mind that after so much **** and a flipping war all the way back in 1922 they STILL refuse to let us go...bah

What was that one again on some game show in the UK? The question was along the lines of "What british boy band bla bla bla" and the woman selected boyzone....

but if that wasnt bad enough, the fcking presenter turns around and says "correct answer"

And then recently enough, some band who was playing over here walks on stage and says "its great to be back in the UK" resulting in a massive boo-urns.

Caoimhín

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

What was that one again on some game show in the UK? The question was along the lines of "What british boy band bla bla bla" and the woman selected boyzone....

Well they can keep that shower of cnuts.

JayeL

I think racism is too strong a word for the innocent ignorance of British people towards Ireland. In fairness, it's a headf**k to a large extent. The one sure thing, however, is DON'T EVER IMPLY WE'RE BRITISH.

Mar shampla: Little Britain Live sold out something like 10 nights in the Point a while back. Despite the wall-to-wall Britishness of both the show and it's general look (some of their DVDs are covered in union jacks), the show obviously went down a storm. The one low-point was when the recorded Tom Baker voiceover mentioned something to the effect of "Britain consists of 4 countries: England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales". The audience started booing straight away: we're happy to laugh at it but don't dare imply we're part of it!

thebman

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Then they have changed what is taught in English schools, a lot.

Irish history is (Quite rightly) important to the Irish, but it is just part of a much much broader history to the English.

Pretty much everything in Irish History involves the English whereas the Irish make up about 3% of English history.

I think you'll find a hell of a lot of our history doesn't involve the English, just recent history.

Britain isn't a big country like the US so I'd expect them to know Ireland isn't part of Britain. It's not asking a lot. Just that you watch the news every now and again and buy a road map or use google maps at least once in your life. It's impossible to know everything about every country but the one next door isn't a bad starting point.

Fratton Fred

brim4brim wrote: »

I think you'll find a hell of a lot of our history doesn't involve the English, just recent history.

Britain isn't a big country like the US so I'd expect them to know Ireland isn't part of Britain. It's not asking a lot. Just that you watch the news every now and again and buy a road map or use google maps at least once in your life. It's impossible to know everything about every country but the one next door isn't a bad starting point.

Sorry, i thought nothing else happened in this country over the last 800

read my earlier thread about the confusion. Snow Patrol are a pretty good example. They won best british band at the Brits and Best Irish band at the Meteors. tell me how that one ****ing works.

As for Boyzone, they used to be on on British TV every 5 minutes, just like Dara O'Briain is now. It seems that it is ok for the Irish to expliot the British markets and earn a fortune out of them, but then get all indignant when they get called British. make yer mind up lads:D

oohh, for got to add, no one would notice these mistakes if they didn't watch British TV all the time.

asdasd

It strikes me from reading the last two pages that Irish people do get confused between British and English. So there's two of us in it.

( It is totally legitmate to call any UK contender in the Olympics British, for instance. that is not a claim of Englishness. That they tend to call the Scots Scottish when the Scots are losing, and British when they are winning is true enough ( or was), but both are legit.)

Fratton Fred

My sister in law was telling me about their day trip to England, they caught the ferry to Fishguard.:rolleyes:

ejmaztec

JFK was Irish.

Fratton Fred

ejmaztec wrote: »

JFK was Irish.

so was Andy Townshend

ejmaztec

There's nothing the media (everywhere) likes more than stirring up the sh1t.

javaboy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

read my earlier thread about the confusion. Snow Patrol are a pretty good example. They won best british band at the Brits and Best Irish band at the Meteors. tell me how that one ****ing works.

I don't know how they won either tbh but good point. I don't think they should be eligible for both unless they're from Norn Iron and some of the band choose to be identified as Irish and some as British

As for Boyzone, they used to be on on British TV every 5 minutes, just like Dara O'Briain is now. It seems that it is ok for the Irish to expliot the British markets and earn a fortune out of them, but then get all indignant when they get called British. make yer mind up lads:D

I know you're only having a laugh and all but that's crap and you know it. That's like saying ABBA give up their right to be called Swedish because they 'exploited' other markets. :rolleyes:

Disco Stu

JayeL wrote: »

I think racism is too strong a word for the innocent ignorance of British people towards Ireland. In fairness, it's a headf**k to a large extent. The one sure thing, however, is DON'T EVER IMPLY WE'RE BRITISH.

Mar shampla: Little Britain Live sold out something like 10 nights in the Point a while back. Despite the wall-to-wall Britishness of both the show and it's general look (some of their DVDs are covered in union jacks), the show obviously went down a storm. The one low-point was when the recorded Tom Baker voiceover mentioned something to the effect of "Britain consists of 4 countries: England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales". The audience started booing straight away: we're happy to laugh at it but don't dare imply we're part of it!

I think it's just ignorance all round... I don't think brits are any worse than anyone else to be honest...

The number of Irish people who refer to the whole of the UK as England... "do you have an English driving license" and other similar comments is ridiculous... but no one seems to think that's a problem...

As for people getting labelled from the UK or Ireland and mixed up happens all the time... laughed when I heard that apparently Sean Connery was Irish... if you look far enough back into someones family history you can probably prove they are from anywhere you want...!!