Bourdais penalty

jhegarty

Bourdais has been given a penalty for been hit by massa....

Most be the new "getting in the way of a Ferrari rule"....

Sabre0001

Very harsh penalty to be honest...Not much that could be done really. But don't think it's going to have that much of a bearing in terms of the Championship. If it reduced the gap to 4 points then I would see a bigger controversy but I don't see an extra point making that big a difference - Massa still needs Kimi to be a buffer zone...

rua1972

Just like the incident involving cars #2 and #22. I would say it was a race incident not worthy of a penalty.
In the case of Bourdais, he was on the curbs already so anymore to the right wasn't possible.

triple h

This is silly, where could Bourdais have gone. He was over as far as he could have gone.

I don't know, the way some decisions have gone this year i wonder will i be watching Formula 1 this time next year. The FIA want Ferrari to win the championship. At the start of each race they must be in secret contact with the race stewards to remind them of their duty to Ferari.

triple h

This is silly, where could Bourdais have gone. He was over as far as he could have gone.

I don't know, the way some decisions have gone this year i wonder will i be watching Formula 1 this time next year. The FIA want Ferrari to win the championship. At the start of each race they must be in secret contact with the race stewards to remind them of their duty to Ferari.

steviec

Very odd decision.

I don't think Bourdais could have done much to avoid the collision, seemed a standard racing incident for me. The stewards might be trying to set a precedent for "lesser" teams to get out of the way of the title rivals. They don't want the title decided because Hamilton tripped over a Toyota or whatever. Of course the stewards have all the telemetry, and there's no sign of an appeal, so maybe it wasn't as clear as it looked, it's a pity there wasn't a good clear overhead camera shot of the incident.

If the tiresome Ferrari conspiracy theories made any sense they wouldn't have given Massa a penalty which ruined his race. The stewards have generally done a good job this season, it's a pity the media have been so blinkered in their suppport of Hamilton that they've been trying to portray things differently.

andyman

I have mixed opinions on all 3 penalties handed out this weekend.

Bourdais - Joke of a penalty. He had the inside line going into the corner and is more then entitled to use it. That collision was Massa's fault more then anything. Not deserved at all.

Hamilton - I can see where the stewards are coming from on this one. However Hamilton forced somebody off in Monza (Kimi was it?) and got off scot free. You could say Kimi forced Hamilton off at Spa as well, but we wont get into that. All I'm saying is that the stewards need to be more consistant with this penalty if they're going to issue it.

Massa - Should have been a stop go at minimum if you ask me. He cut the corner, forced Hamilton into a spin AND gains an advantage from it. A joke that he got off for the Bourdais incident as well.

A bloody fix this sport is.

aidan_dunne

Once again, the problem of inconsistancy regarding stewards and penalties seems to be the main issue here. How one driver can get away with something at one race and then get punished for a similar offence at another race makes no sense. There needs to be consistancy in the punishments and I think having permanant stewards who go to all the races, and having at least one former F1 driver on the panel as well, is something that is definitely going to have to be looked at. There also needs to be a major re-write of the rulebook and clarification beyond a shadow of a doubt of what is and isn't allowed because the FIA are starting to look like a bunch of clowns who are just making things up as they go along now.

amacachi

Couldn't believe this when I woke up today. When it said the incident would be investigated after the race I assumed they would look at Massa and I thought "Nah, they'll not punish him since he spun himself off and didn't harm Bourdais." What a sham of a decision.

FrostyJack

I don't exactly know why he was punished but as mentioned above there doesnt seem to be any appeal, so we don't know the full info.

As for the conspiracy theories about Ferrari again, why did they punish Massa if this was the case he nearly got no points? Oh right it makes no sense, but a little thing like facts never get in the way of a good conspiracy.....

amacachi

FrostyJack wrote: »

As for the conspiracy theories about Ferrari again, why did they punish Massa if this was the case he nearly got no points? Oh right it makes no sense, but a little thing like facts never get in the way of a good conspiracy.....

Shush, you'll ruin everyone's fun with talk like that.

Woden

Cannot help but feel most of this stuff would have just been put down to racing incidents a couple of years ago. Can't say i'm happy with the way it is going. Ah well..

kaizersoze

FrostyJack wrote: »

I don't exactly know why he was punished but as mentioned above there doesnt seem to be any appeal, so we don't know the full info.

As for the conspiracy theories about Ferrari again, why did they punish Massa if this was the case he nearly got no points? Oh right it makes no sense, but a little thing like facts never get in the way of a good conspiracy.....

There's no appeal because there is no right of appeal for 'in race' penalties, as McLaren found out recently.

I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theories at all but todays Bourdais penalty, on the surface at least, just doesn't make sense.

Oblomov

The Massa - Hamilton incident, if the Stewards are going to make judgements as to penalties why is there no facility to re-instate the lost position. The action achieved the necessary, Hamilton to the back of the pack and out of the points.

You punt the championship leader out of the points and you are the leading contender, what would be a consistent penalty, bearing in mind the drive through is the very minimum you can impose?

The first corner melee, everyone was following the two leaders into the corner, so the Farrari gets nudged by the number two Mclaren, but only one of the culprits for the excessive speed is penalised. Each driver has his own responsibilty to drive round the circuit. Thay have all covered more than race distance in the number of laps during practice and qualiying and yet to blame one person for dabacle of the charge into the first bend.

During the briefing session on Friday, the action of the stewards were questioned as to why excessive time was taken to decide Rosberg's penalty and when it was finally imposed, made no difference.

Surely, the penalty must suit the crime.

Manic Moran

The first corner melee, everyone was following the two leaders into the corner, so the Farrari gets nudged by the number two Mclaren, but only one of the culprits for the excessive speed is penalised. Each driver has his own responsibilty to drive round the circuit. Thay have all covered more than race distance in the number of laps during practice and qualiying and yet to blame one person for dabacle of the charge into the first bend.

Sorry, I'm going to disagree with this one. The Turn 1 fracas can very definitely be laid at Hamilton's feet for doing a desperate lunge up the inside. Anyone to the left of him had no option but to stay to his left, which in this case meant off the road.

I've no problem with the Massa penalty; it didn't do either driver any good, but Massa was definitely at fault. Lewis has complained that at least he didn't hit anyone, but I think he did more damage overall with his move when you look at the number of persons and teams affected than Massa did by taking Lewis out. Lewis' move pretty much took Kimi out of contention, for example. Going from leading the race and keeping his championship alive to down to sixth or so.

As for Bourdais, I think it's a bit harsh. I must ponder this a bit. All things considered I think it was just one of those racing incidents where the two drivers were simply fighting for position and touched.

Edit.

He had the inside line going into the corner and is more then entitled to use it.

I've been watching some of the replays on Youtube, and might well decide that some of what I wrote above is wrong. In Bourdais' case, Massa was in front, but Bourdais was still forward enough to be to the side of the Ferrari's, and on the inside. In the Hamilton/Massa case, after Massa went wide and Lewis got in front entering the left-hander, the Ferrari was still far enough forward to be to the side of the McLaren, and on the inside. Why should the person on the inside hit the brake in the Bourdais case, but not the Massa case? You could very well make the argument that Hamilton attempted to close the door before Massa was sufficiently far behind, forcing the latter across the kerb, when then resulted in going airborne, loss of control, and into Hamilton. Massa tried to close the door on Bourdais before the latter was clear, one could argue similarities, no?

NTM

vincenzolorenzo

I reckon the bourdais penalty was pretty unfair. To be honest i didn't think either driver deserved a penalty, it was just a standard racing incident. It all comes back to inconsistency on the part of the stewards, adding further fuel to the "FIA want ferrari to win at all times" fire, which frankly, doesn't do anyone, or the sports image any good. As for the other two penalties, both deserved. Hamilton made a complete cock up of the start and first corner and went in there WAY too hot. He whinged that he didn't hit anyone but still got penalised but in reality he was just very lucky not to hit anyone. As for massa, he just dived for a space that wasn't really there. Hamilton was moaning after the race that it was a deliberate move to take him out but thats total ****e TBH. It was close racing and drama that we all want to see, lets face it isn't that the reason we tune in?!?! Once again hamilton seems to be going out of his way to lose the championship he had in his grasp, just like last year. And by the sound of him after the race he could well do that with his 'win at all costs' mentality.

DannyBuoy

^+1
Even as a Ferrari fan I think Bourdais did nothing wrong, they were in race position, if Bourdais was a lap down then he def should have been reprimanded but Massa obvioulsy thought he'd either make the corner or Bourdais would give it to him, either way Massa was prob a bit optimistic.
The Massa and Hamilton tip, def Massa's fault, car was totally outside the track lines, both were lucky to stay going.
I also got a distinct impression from Hamilton's "Going for the win" quote, when asked if at any cost he just repeated going for the win, does that mean he'll take out any red car that's infront of him?
Tune in again at the crack of dawn next Sunday morn

jhegarty

DannyBuoy wrote: »

Tune in again at the crack of dawn next Sunday morn

and hope to god we actually have a race decided on the track and not the stewards office....

Irishshin

I am a Ferrari fan and think Bourdais's penatly was harsh.
I was worried they were going to penalise Massa and he would lose that much needed point...

I certainly hope thats it wont be decided in the stewards office.
Will be great if it goes right down to the race in Brazil.

Oblomov

Car scream down the right hand side and into the corner, cars take avoiding action..... the clear example, Alonso and Kubica come out of the melee in first and second positions... McLaren No:2... edges Kimi off of the track, this is compounded by Massa forcing his team mate to stay off of the track .. and you want to blame one person... The pack were all steaming into the corner.... no more or no less than has happened in the past without any reaction... and no doubt will happen again... with no reaction.

Massa was off of the track at point of impact, having already taken the first corner and, literally, allowed the McLaren into a position to side swipe in the following corner...

And the shot of the Ferrari team member waving a clenched fist does little to engender any feeling of neutrality.

The corner incident where Brundle did a barrel roll in the Jordan springs to mind, reaction from the stewards..... oppps, they must have been asleep.

EvilMonkey

Oblomov wrote: »

Car scream down the right hand side and into the corner, cars take avoiding action..... the clear example, Alonso and Kubica come out of the melee in first and second positions... McLaren No:2... edges Kimi off of the track, this is compounded by Massa forcing his team mate to stay off of the track .. and you want to blame one person... The pack were all steaming into the corner.... no more or no less than has happened in the past without any reaction... and no doubt will happen again... with no reaction.

McLaren 1 + 2 edge kimi off the track, McLaren 2 would not have been in that position but for the actions of McLaren 1 and i dont see what else massa could have done? Anyway i dont agree with the penalty its not the first or last time someone will go into the first corner too hot.

Massa was off of the track at point of impact, having already taken the first corner and, literally, allowed the McLaren into a position to side swipe in the following corner...

Eh no massa went over the curb to avoid a collision, Hamilton ahead tried to close the door on massa which was unnecary as he would have stayed ahead if he took a wider line. Both drivers at fault again i dont agree with the penalty.

And the shot of the Ferrari team member waving a clenched fist does little to engender any feeling of neutrality.

Ferrari team member is not a neutral. Did McLarens engineers not all cheer in Singapore's when Ferrari F***ed up?

The first 2 incidents i can see where the stewards are coming from but for the Bourdais decision i cant see how it was justified.

Manic Moran

The first 2 incidents i can see where the stewards are coming from but for the Bourdais decision i cant see how it was justified.

The more I think of it, the more I think it's for consistency between that incident and the previous one where Massa span Hamilton.

In both cases you have a car on the outside which is slightly ahead, both attempt to close the door on the car which is on the more inside line but somewhat behind (But not far enough behind that the leading car can move all the way to the kerb withouth hitting him), in both cases the car on the inside refuses to yield, both cases result in a collision, and both cases resulted in the car in front being spun, whilst the car behind continues on with minimal delay.

NTM

andyman

Manic Moran wrote: »

The more I think of it, the more I think it's for consistency between that incident and the previous one where Massa span Hamilton.

In both cases you have a car on the outside which is slightly ahead, both attempt to close the door on the car which is on the more inside line but somewhat behind (But not far enough behind that the leading car can move all the way to the kerb withouth hitting him), in both cases the car on the inside refuses to yield, both cases result in a collision, and both cases resulted in the car in front being spun, whilst the car behind continues on with minimal delay.

NTM

Massa cut the corner in his incident with Hamilton though. Is that not similar to Hamilton @ Spa? It most certainly is. Massa cut the corner and took Hamilton out. He gained an advantage, caused an avoidable incident and gained track position. How that penalty was only a drive through I will never know. Michael Schumacher has gotten a black flag for less in the past.

Bourdais came out of the pits on the inside line ON THE TRACK and was more then entitled to use it. Had Massa been on the inside line in his move against Hamilton, then there would be no issue here. The issue is that Massa cut the corner in his incident with Hamilton, whereas Bourdais was using the inside line which there is no rule against. He had no other option either since the pitlane white line is before the corner. Had he cut it he would have gotten a penalty. But now he's gotten a penalty for something that was more Massa's fault then it was his. It was a racing incident though.

Hopefully Massa is introduced to a wall in China. Just to stick that one up the FIA's a-holes. No doubt they'll find a way to strip Hamilton of the points that win him the world title if it's the case and have it down to Brazil.

jhegarty

andyman wrote: »

Hopefully Massa is introduced to a wall in China.

Could never happen...

How could they give a wall a drive through ?

andyman

jhegarty wrote: »

Could never happen...

How could they give a wall a drive through ?

Hopefully Massa's car gives the wall a plough through. With Massa being ok of course. Got nothing against him. Isn't his fault what the stewards decide.

EvilMonkey

Manic Moran wrote: »

The more I think of it, the more I think it's for consistency between that incident and the previous one where Massa span Hamilton.

In both cases you have a car on the outside which is slightly ahead, both attempt to close the door on the car which is on the more inside line but somewhat behind (But not far enough behind that the leading car can move all the way to the kerb withouth hitting him), in both cases the car on the inside refuses to yield, both cases result in a collision, and both cases resulted in the car in front being spun, whilst the car behind continues on with minimal delay.

NTM

Just looked it on youtube you could be right but again if massa stays wide he would have still passed Bourdais. The other thing i dont get is why wait till after the race why not give a drive through their was enough time left?

Massa cut the corner in his incident with Hamilton though. Is that not similar to Hamilton @ Spa? It most certainly is. Massa cut the corner and took Hamilton out. He gained an advantage, caused an avoidable incident and gained track position. How that penalty was only a drive through I will never know. Michael Schumacher has gotten a black flag for less in the past

No for it to be like spa massa would have to have taken the escape road. Massa went over the curb to avoid a collision with Hamilton, he didnt gain an advantage he lost a position the collision was caused by 2 cars moving onto the same piece of track both drivers at fault a racing incident. How many times have we seen this scenario with cars at the back of the grid and their is no penalty? just because hamiltion was unlucky and had to wait for the entire field to pass its still no different

Corben Dallas

Massa was off of the track at point of impact, having already taken the first corner and, literally, allowed the McLaren into a position to side swipe in the following corner...

Eh no massa went over the curb to avoid a collision, Hamilton ahead tried to close the door on massa which was unnecary as he would have stayed ahead if he took a wider line.:pac:

olobmov is right. Massa striaghtlined the corner, shortening the turn by going over the kerbs and grass(all four wheels off the track) to get back at Hamilton as quickly as poss because he went in too deep in the previous turn, and deliberately tagged LH rear wheel (who was on the track) as he went by, (if you look at the reply u can even see Massa's white gloves turning sharply right to tag LH, when the corner turns left. He should have got a stop and go for this.

Lewis penalty in the first corner. Serious brain fade. Does he want to World Champ this year? He got out dragged off the line by Kimi and went for a Banzai locked up drive to try and get the inside line into first corner. Kimi saw this coming tried to let LH steam by but Kovalinen saw the opportunity to box the ferrari out by running square behind LH. This is racing. LH should not have got a penalty, Banzai move it was but he didnt hit anyone, the drivers behind have to drive their own first corner. Kubica and Alonso saw and took their chances. This is racing.
In the normal chain of events LH outbrakes himself and would probably have rejoined 6/7/8th. If he hit someone> penalty, if not > no penalty.
LH got a penalty cause hes driving a McLaren.

Bourdais penalty. this decesion is so pro Ferrari it annoys me. This (i believe) was for position, with Bourdais coming out of the pits, which means he has to be on the inside because the white line pit lane exit effectively put him there, Massa was coming back thru the field and having gone around the outside ( both cars were still pretty level) Massa decides to pinch/squeez Bourdais hoping that he would back off, Bourdais didnt and there was contact. Bourdais had every right to hold his ground and Massa caused his own spin! Racing incident or Massa should have got a 30sec time added on after the race penalty.

Corben Dallas

Massa went over the curb to avoid a collision with Hamilton,
cmon it was more of a heat seeking missile type move.

he didnt gain an advantage he lost a position the collision was caused by 2 cars moving onto the same piece of track both drivers at fault a racing incident.
Massa was behind LH, Massa tagged his left rear wheel with his front right(LH was nearly a car lenght ahead) and completely off track. !!!????

andyman

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Just looked it on youtube you could be right but again if massa stays wide he would have still passed Bourdais. The other thing i dont get is why wait till after the race why not give a drive through their was enough time left?


No for it to be like spa massa would have to have taken the escape road. Massa went over the curb to avoid a collision with Hamilton, he didnt gain an advantage he lost a position the collision was caused by 2 cars moving onto the same piece of track both drivers at fault a racing incident.

This debate was had in the Spa thread as well. Massa tried to avoid an incident, I understand that. But he didn't. You can still try and avoid an incident but cause it at the same time. I am a Hamilton fan admittadly and I do agree with the penalty he was awarded, my gripe with that one is that the stewards are inconsistant in those situations, but we wont get into that.

Just to compare it to Spa.

Hamilton tried overtaking in the Bus-Stop - Kimi shut the door (which he is entitled to do)
Massa tried to re-take on the inside in that chicane after running wide initially, Hamilton tried shutting the door (again, which he is entitled to do)

Both cars cut the corner to avoid an incident.

Hamilton gained an advantage, but handed the position back
Massa caused an incident, gained a position and gained a further advantage with his main pursuee out of the picture.

Both are very similar incidents. Yet the damage (not talking literally obviously) Massa caused in his one is certainly worth more then a drive through penalty.

Obviously we're going to have differing opinions, but that's my one.

andyman

Corben Dallas wrote: »

Massa was off of the track at point of Bourdais penalty. this decesion is so pro Ferrari it annoys me. This (i believe) was for position, with Bourdais coming out of the pits, which means he has to be on the inside because the white line pit lane exit effectively put him there, Massa was coming back thru the field and having gone around the outside ( both cars were still pretty level) Massa decides to pinch/squeez Bourdais hoping that he would back off, Bourdais didnt and their was contact. Bourdais had every right to hold his ground and Massa caused his own spin! Racing incident or Massa should have got a 30sec time added on after the race penalty.

Exactly what my point is. Thank you.

EvilMonkey

Corben Dallas wrote: »

Massa went over the curb to avoid a collision with Hamilton,
cmon it was more of a heat seeking missile type move.

he didnt gain an advantage he lost a position the collision was caused by 2 cars moving onto the same piece of track both drivers at fault a racing incident.
Massa was behind LH, Massa tagged his left rear wheel with his front right(LH was nearly a car lenght ahead) and completely off track. !!!????

Massa was moving back onto the track Hamilton was closing the door on massa both drivers move toward eachother wheels touch...

Manic Moran

(if you look at the reply u can even see Massa's white gloves turning sharply right to tag LH

I've been looking at this again (I can't find any in-car footage of the incident from Massa's camera) and don't see it. The only time I can see Massa turning right is after the initial impact, which makes sense as the impact result would be to bounce the nose of the Ferrari to the left.

NTM

vectra

Corben Dallas wrote: »

LH got a penalty cause hes driving a McLaren.

He actually got a penalty for acting the Langer and not for acting like a proffesional race driver.
Kovi should have gotten a penalty as well.
To Me that manouvre was pre-arranged as Plan "B" should Kimi get ahead of Lewis.

Go Massa ... Beat lewis by one point again this year and rub egg in his smug face

cashmni1

I think that there was a blue flag being waved @ Bourdais also????? I might be wrong, but if so, this would explain the penalty a bit better.
Anyway, consistency is the name of the game with the stewarts so i can see why both masa and bourdais were both rogered.

Go Masa!!

andyman

cashmni1 wrote: »

I think that there was a blue flag being waved @ Bourdais also????? I might be wrong, but if so, this would explain the penalty a bit better.
Anyway, consistency is the name of the game with the stewarts so i can see why both masa and bourdais were both rogered.

Go Masa!!

That doesn't explain things at all. Bourdais and Massa were fighting for position. Why should Bourdais move over and let Massa through into his position?

Manic Moran

Well, it sortof does contribute, with one huge and massive caveat.

You'll notice that whenever a car leaves the pit lane if there's a hot car on the straight coming up behind, the blue light and blue flag are shown to the car exiting the pits, as a warning that he's got someone coming at him. I have always understood this to mean that if someone leaving the pits comes out in conflict with the person on the hot lap, the new entrant yields, much as a car must wait in the box to wait for pit lane to be cleared, even if the car he's yielding for is a lap down and the boxed car is trying to fight for position.

The caveat is that according to ITV's site, Charlie Whiting had told the teams in Singapore that the car exiting the pits has priority. This doesn't make much sense to me as he's going to be slower, and seems to contradict the displayed blue flags to the pit-lane-leaver.

I still think the only reason for the Bourdais decision was to maintain consistency with the Massa decision. I don't like it, I think it should have just been classed as a racing incident and left at that, but I think I can understand the logic.

NTM

Oblomov

Because of the FIA regulation appertaining to overtaking and the use of the Blue Flag, Bourdais was in a no win situation.

The regs:

a) during a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of
the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight
by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver
shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one
side in order to allow for passing on the other side.

b) if the driver who has been caught does not seem to make full
use of his rear-view mirror the flag marshal(s) will give a warning
by waving the blue flag to indicate that another competitor wants
to overtake.
Any driver who does not take notice of the blue flag may be
penalised by the Sporting Stewards.
Systematic or repeated offences may result in the exclusion of the
offender from the race.

c) curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be
negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits of
the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be
done either on the right or on the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as
premature changes of direction, more than one change of
direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,
are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the
importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging
from a fine to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of
dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion
from the race.

d) any obstructive manoeuvre carried out by one or several
drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited. The
persistent driving abreast of several vehicles, as well as fanshaped
arrangement, is authorised only if there is not another car
trying to overtake. Otherwise the blue flag will be waved.

e) the penalty inflicted for ignoring the blue flag will also be
applied to the drivers who obstruct part of the track and shall be
more severe in the case of systematic obstruction, thus ranging
from a fine to the exclusion from the race. The same
penalty shall be applied to drivers who swing from one side of the
track to the other in order to prevent other competitors from
overtaking.

f) the repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of
control over the car (such as leaving the track) may entail the
exclusion of the drivers concerned.

g) the race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the race.

So, Bourdais leaves pit lane and continues in a straight line towards the corner, blue flag is waved to warn him that a faster car is approaching and he should take the necessary action.
If he pulls across the track to allow the faster car a clear path and the indise line, given the speed differential between Massa and Bourdais , this would be conceived as liable under section C, But he must remain on the track.

If he had maintained position but lifted off the throttle, the sudden deceleration would have created a much earlier contact point and possible a greater contact area.

Dammed if he did and dammed if he didn't.

But, the overtaking car was a Ferrari. Did Ferrari object knowing that if accepted Massa would gain an extra point?

vectra

I wonder what would the penalty be if this had happened during qualifying and Hamilton was on a hot lop ( his final attempt ) and a driver exited the pit lane and by doing so impeded his lap ?

In a way Burdeoux had no hope of staying in front of Massa so in a way impeded his race. ?

Just a theory

Oblomov

The same that happened to Hamilton when he was accused of impeding another driver. Hamilton was cruising into the pits while the other driver was on a quick lap....

andyman

vectra wrote: »

I wonder what would the penalty be if this had happened during qualifying and Hamilton was on a hot lop ( his final attempt ) and a driver exited the pit lane and by doing so impeded his lap ?

In a way Burdeoux had no hope of staying in front of Massa so in a way impeded his race. ?

Just a theory

If Bourdais was getting lapped, then yes he would have been impeding. But he wasn't, he was fighting Massa for track position. He wasn't impeding anyones race at all. He was racing with them.

CM21

Theres a good video on the f1 website here http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html
It shows all three penalties including onboard shots. You can see the flat spots on Hamiltons tyres from the onboard.
I think the first 2 penalties were right but am still unsure about the bourdais one. It look as though the massa onboard shot showing him ahead when the two cars reach the braking zone is what decided it for the stewards.

amacachi

First one is definitely right, and the more ya see it the more obvious it is the kovalainen should've got a penalty as well.
The second one, I agree there should be a penalty, but I don't think it's as bad as what ITV etc are makin it out to be.
The Bourdais incident, the onboard footage adds a new dimension tbh. I still don't think he should've been penalised, but I do think he was in the wrong a bit.

FrostyJack

That footage is excellent, wish we could see all those cameras in the race. From that footage it does look as intentional from Massa, he was on full lock, but he could have eased on the throttle though. He could have easily ended his own race doing it and even if he took out Hammy he would have been in a worse position now. Just looks like a rush of blood.

The Bourdais incident is a bit strange alright. I can see why they though he could have avoided it but I don't agree with them.

The 1st incident is defo a penalty, no intention to safely make corner and kovalainen looked like he was playing silly beggers too. If it was Massa instead of Kimi I would have been very skeptical, I wonder because his engine blew just as Hamilton got penalty they never investigated him.

Irishshin

Those are really good videos, would be nice to see things like that after every race.

Hamilton's penalty def was deserved and Kovi should have got one too
Massa's one I'm still not too sure on
Bourdais. I didn't think he deserved it at all but after seeing those I am unsure

Corben Dallas

nice replays of all three incidents. *was wondering when(if) they were goin to release Massa's onboard*

The little fecker turns(>flings the steering wheel) sharp right on a left turning corner to deliberatly tag Lewis. He should have got a 10 grid penalty in the next race for that. Massa can consider himself lucky to 'just' get a drive thru.

Micheal Schmacher did something nearly identical in the Championship decider in Jerez when racing Jaques Vileneuve and they DQ him from 2nd place in the Championship points table that year.

The Bourdais/Massa Scrap. Just checked this out, Bourdais was fighting for position, so no blue flags etc and had every right to hold his ground. Massa should have got the penalty or just leave it as a racing incident (he caused his own spin) only thing I could say in his def is that maybe he could'nt see Bourdais was alongside and turned in not expecting him to be there.

vectra

Corben Dallas wrote: »

nice replays of all three incidents. *was wondering when(if) they were goin to release Massa's onboard*

The little fecker turns(>flings the steering wheel) sharp right on a left turning corner to deliberatly tag Lewis. He should have got a 10 grid penalty in the next race for that. Massa can consider himself lucky to 'just' get a drive thru.

Flicked his wheel to the right to avoid his car spinning ( opposite lock )
Nothing was deliberate on his part.
Hamilton actually closed the door on Massa's Line.

Corben Dallas wrote: »

Micheal Schmacher did something nearly identical in the Championship decider in Jerez when racing Jaques Vileneuve and they DQ him from 2nd place in the Championship points table that year.

That was deliberate as was his bang with Damon Hill the year before.

Corben Dallas wrote: »

The Bourdais/Massa Scrap. Just checked this out, Bourdais was fighting for position, so no blue flags etc and had every right to hold his ground. Massa should have got the penalty or just leave it as a racing incident (he caused his own spin) only thing I could say in his def is that maybe he could'nt see Bourdais was alongside and turned in not expecting him to be there.

If you look closely at it you will notice Bourdais did in fact keep to the kerb on the apex but did seem to understeer towards the outer part of the track while massa wass passing him at a higher speed

SouperComputer

I'd consider myself pretty impartial on this, I honestly couldn't care who wins what, where and when, but anyway, ill jump up on the soapbox for a few mins......

The penalty for Bourdais is a disgrace. It was a racing incident. I mean FFS, theres not a lot of action going on in F1 in general, if theres going to be a dice for position then it shouldn't be penalised. Bourdais did the same as I (and probably most racing driver) would have done, defended his position decicevly and aggressively. Had he been in within the confines of the pit line, that would have been another matter. TBH Massa should have known better than to close the door that aggressively in that situation, also, IMO he should have been warned by his team. No idea if this happened or not. Did Massa eve see him? I haven't read any post-race stuff. Quote as much of the sporting code as you like, just bear in mind its an interpetation of the rules and not absolute. The call made against Bordais goes against the spirit of racing IMO. If he had locked up and slammed into Massa, that would be a different story.

Bourdais and Massa: Racing accident.

As for Massa deliberately putting Hamilton off. Sorry, but I doubt it. He had too much to lose by deliberately attempting to put Hamilton off. If you collide with another car in F1 (or any SS), its usually a crapshoot at best and the risks of putting yourself out of the race are extremely high. What Massa did was clumsy, and over exuberant, but I doubt it was deliberate. If it was, well, then, he's as big an eejit as Hamilton was for the 1st corner move.

My .02c

vincenzolorenzo

Corben Dallas wrote: »

nice replays of all three incidents. *was wondering when(if) they were goin to release Massa's onboard*

The little fecker turns(>flings the steering wheel) sharp right on a left turning corner to deliberatly tag Lewis. He should have got a 10 grid penalty in the next race for that. Massa can consider himself lucky to 'just' get a drive thru.

Micheal Schmacher did something nearly identical in the Championship decider in Jerez when racing Jaques Vileneuve and they DQ him from 2nd place in the Championship points table that year.

The Bourdais/Massa Scrap. Just checked this out, Bourdais was fighting for position, so no blue flags etc and had every right to hold his ground. Massa should have got the penalty or just leave it as a racing incident (he caused his own spin) only thing I could say in his def is that maybe he could'nt see Bourdais was alongside and turned in not expecting him to be there.

OK, complete lies on the massa incident from Corben Dallas. Look at the video again - massa steering wheel does turn right AFTER he tags hammo. In other words the impact caused the wheel to turn, or else he was just correcting a slide. hard to tell really. It is absolutely nothing like the schumacher/villeneuve Jerez 97 incident. For a start i don't think anyone could claim that massa is as ruthless as shumacher was. The incident warranted a drive thru but nothing more than that. Hammo can whinge all he likes but it was just an optimistic move by a championship contender.

I still think that the bourdais penalty is unfair on him but i don't think there should have been a penalty on either of them. In massa's defence however, from the onboard camera i don't think he realised bourdais would be right beside him by the time he got to the corner. Just a simple mistake by a driver focused on making as many points as he could on a day when hamilton made a mess of things

G-Money

I thought it was ridiculous that Bourdais got penalised. But as someone else said, it must be the FIA Rule "Penalty shall be imposed for impeding or preventing Ferrari from scoring points, such behaviour includes adopting the racing line and trying to beat Ferrari"