Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

luckyfrank

Again survays dont hold much water with me

What someone might say in a survay is totally different to how someone might vote where it actully counts

If someone said to me in a survay the majority of the people in the north want a united ireland id dismiss it its nothing to get excited about its only a survay

I wish people would stop putting so much emphasis on survays like they were god's word

The Corinthian

luckyfrank wrote: »

Why cant people except that there is a large majority of people north and south 'though obviously in the 6 counties there is a large minoirty' that we want to see a united ireland.

Because there is an increasingly large body of evidence to the situation being more complicated than a simple unionist-nationalist divide.

It would be nice also to see a more level approach in this forum as it comes across that there is an anti united ireland agenda on here

You mean; why don't we follow your assertion that a large number of people on this island are aspiring to see a united Ireland and just agree with you?

Maybe because even that assertion is not as the black and white in reality as you'd portray? Maybe because you'll find we'll all support a united Ireland if asked in a pub over a few pints, but when the reality of such a concept - the cost and the differences - begins to kick in, would cause support to evaporate.

Anyway thats just my opinion probably be banned FOR STUFFING MY PATRIOTISM DOWN SOMEONES THROAT :rolleyes:

Poor diddums.

The Corinthian

luckyfrank wrote: »

I wish people would stop putting so much emphasis on survays like they were god's word

No one is suggesting that surveys are God's word, but the other extreme of ignoring them is equally idiotic.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

T runner

The Corinthian wrote: »

I think the point, that you've missed, is that increasingly people in the north see themselves as Northern Irish as a separate identity which is neither British or Irish.

I think youve missed the point there. A third of those who said they felt they were Northern Irish (1/12 of syrvey respondents) described themselves
as equally Irish or British. It didnt give the proportions for the remainer of the Northern Irish group.

The same data also shows that the vast majority also identify with being to some degree British - indeed, it points to a mixed identity being the majority view rather than identifying exclusively with one or the other.

I believe that 2/3 identified with being either Catholic Irish, or Protestant British. The mixed identity is not the majority view, the exclusive identity is.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

luckyfrank wrote: »

Why cant people except that there is a large majority of people north and south 'though obviously in the 6 counties there is a large minoirty' that we want to see a united ireland. I accept as ive said before the will of the majority of the 6 counties as it is but that doesnt stop me and a large number of people on this island for aspiring to see a united ireland

I would agree with LuckyFrank here. All the main southern parties bar Pds, Greens have a united Ireland as an objective. Correct me if wrong here. (or anywhere else)

This 2006 survey in the Sunday Business post points to 80% wanting a united ireland in the republic.

( Majority of British also) From Guardian 2001 )

The Corinthian wrote: »

Because there is an increasingly large body of evidence to the situation being more complicated than a simple unionist-nationalist divide.

I dont know about this. Only Slightly more believe themselves to be Northern Irish now.
This slight shift is hardly surprising after the relative success of the most recent agreement and a peaceful period.

I would also agree with lucky Franks assertion that it wont make any difference come voting time.
There is no middle ground option for voters (not even alliance and SDLP).

One reason: every party must make the statement when entering the NI Assembly if they are Nationalist or Unionist and are allocated a side of the house. There is no "Equally Nationalist and Unionist" option.

This effectively enshrines a Nationalist/Unionist (sectarian?) division in NI politics.

SirHenryGrattan

This question get's asked a lot. The quick answer is that the both the SDLP and Sinn Fein have explicit commitments to a United Ireland written into their respective party constitutions. So people who vote SDLP/Sinn Fein are voting for a United Ireland. What would really interesting is a breakdown of of the vote by religious affiliation i.e. how many Protestants vote for SDLP/Sinn Fein and how many Catholics vote Unionist.

Bottle_of_Smoke

My flatmate's part of that minority. He says he'd never describe himself as British but doesn't feel O'Irish either. From a Protestant family.

LordSutch

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

My flatmate's part of that minority. He says he'd never describe himself as British but doesn't feel O'Irish either. From a Protestant family.

So then, I presume he is part of the growing number of people I mention in Post#350 ?

thehighground

Camelot wrote: »

So then, I presume he is part of the growing number of people I mention in Post#350 ?

But we're talking about a NI Protestant here. If I was a Unionist I'd be worried that people who used to see themselves as British now acknowledge that they actually are Irish (and turning their back on their Britishness).

Camelot - did I read somewhere recently that the British Legion's NI head officer was/is in the UDR (I only mention it in the context that I think that people should be told this before being asked to buy/wear red poppys IF that is who is involved and who the money raised is going to support).

T runner

thehighground wrote: »

But we're talking about a NI Protestant here. If I was a Unionist I'd be worried that people who used to see themselves as British now acknowledge that they actually are Irish (and turning their back on their Britishness).

I would argue that the British identity got stronger among Northern protestants after partition. The differential before partition was political view nationalist/unionist and religion. Nationality differences were not really there
between protestant and catholic and more obviously between north and south.

After partition the people in the free state were Irish making it natural for northern protestants in those dangerous times to polarise and describe themselves as British. I think that the more danger the northern protestant feels in (of a United Ireland) the more British they become.
The triple lock on the political status of NI and the settling situation means that protestants dont have to suppress their Irishness as much.
This mightened necessarily be worrying for unionists if its a reaction to security felt by protestants as a result of a perception (correct) of security of the Union.

To conclude protestants may safely become more Northern Irish/Irish because they feel that the Union is secure.

Fratton Fred

I guess there was a certain amount of Siege Mentality on both sides, now there is peace this has reduced.

LordSutch

thehighground wrote: »

But we're talking about a NI Protestant here. If I was a Unionist I'd be worried that people who used to see themselves as British now acknowledge that they actually are Irish (and turning their back on their Britishness).

The survey I mentioned in Post#350 wasnt religion specific.

thehighground wrote: »

Camelot - did I read somewhere recently that the British Legion's NI head officer was/is in the UDR (I only mention it in the context that I think that people should be told this before being asked to buy/wear red poppys IF that is who is involved and who the money raised is going to support).

I dont know where the Poppy Appeal fund is based up North, but I do know that their Dublin office is off Nassau St, & that all funds collected here in the Republic stay in the Republic. End of Poppy reference. (there are dedicated Threads).

thehighground

T runner wrote: »

I would argue that the British identity got stronger among Northern protestants after partition. The differential before partition was political view nationalist/unionist and religion. Nationality differences were not really there between protestant and catholic and more obviously between north and south.

Prior to partition were the identities not Ulster-Scots, Anglo-Irish and the native Irish (native Irish being the bottom of the barrel) - but all Irish nonetheless.

After partition the people in the free state were Irish making it natural for northern protestants in those dangerous times to polarise and describe themselves as British. I think that the more danger the northern protestant feels in (of a United Ireland) the more British they become.

Surely it would have been safer to call yourself Irish rather than British back in those times in Ireland? It might also have something to do with how the British portrayed Irish people as being thick and stupid (which lead to the 'No Irish, blacks or dogs mentality) and NI protestants wanted to disassociate themselves from that.

The triple lock on the political status of NI and the settling situation means that protestants dont have to suppress their Irishness as much.
This mightened necessarily be worrying for unionists if its a reaction to security felt by protestants as a result of a perception (correct) of security of the Union.

To conclude protestants may safely become more Northern Irish/Irish because they feel that the Union is secure.

I wouldn't be convinced that the issue of NI protestant identity has anything to do with the triple lock on political status. Far more likely is that in Britain they think that anyone who is born on the island of Ireland is actually Irish and being Irish is now quite 'cool'.

thehighground

Camelot wrote: »

The survey I mentioned in Post#350 wasnt religion specific.

I was replying Bottle_of_Smoke originally who referred to being from a Protestant family. Apologies for misunderstanding.

I dont know where the Poppy Appeal fund is based up North, but I do know that their Dublin office is off Nassau St, & that all funds collected here in the Republic stay in the Republic. End of Poppy reference. (there are dedicated Threads).

Think all the Poppy threads are locked and I didn't think it was worth starting a new thread.

Any association between the British Legion and the UDR would not be good publicity in a Poppy appeal down this neck of the woods I'm afraid.

LordSutch

thehighground wrote: »

Any association between the British Legion and the UDR would not be good publicity in a Poppy appeal down this neck of the woods I'm afraid.

You can relax, there aint any connection between the 'Irish' Poppy Appeal & the UDR .............

sceptre

thehighground wrote: »

Camelot - did I read somewhere recently that the British Legion's NI head officer was/is in the UDR (I only mention it in the context that I think that people should be told this before being asked to buy/wear red poppys IF that is who is involved and who the money raised is going to support).

Been reading An Phoblacht (I call it "that weekly provo rag" in the same way as I call the Irish Indo "the tawdry little rag") have you? The new head of the British Legion in Derry is apparently a former UDR/more recent RIR member according to the November 27 issue, so this may be where your info came from originally. Very badly written article by the way, even by their standards (guns and a gossipy tone don't mix).

luckyfrank

I remember seeing on the news when all the comotion about the army parade in belfast that some former members or current members were associated with the udr or uff something like that cannot fully remember but i do remember seeing a photo of R I R soldiers under a banner of some terrorist orginisation uvf/uff/uda something like that

There is never smoke without fire

sceptre

luckyfrank wrote: »

I remember seeing on the news when all the comotion about the army parade in belfast that some former members or current members were associated with the udr or uff something like that

One would assume that quite a lot of RIR members were members of the UDR, given that the former replaced the latter:) (it's still officially called the Royal Irish Regiment (27th (Inniskilling) 83rd and 87th and Ulster Defence Regiment))

Someone who was a member of the TA and the RIR told me that part of the reason for the naming of the RIR from the amalgamation of the Rangers and the UDR was to weed out the more scummy element who would refuse to serve in a unit which contained the word "Irish" in the title. I can't vouch for the veracity of the statement, especially given that it was said to me ten years ago over a combo game of pool/discussion on NI between me, a Scottish nationalist, Irish nationalist and NI unionist in a dodgy South African bar but given the absolute hatred of some of the more extreme elements of the old B-specials and later the UDR towards anything Irish, it might well have been a factor.

Northern Ireland's historically been an odd case, with otherwise perfectly respectable politicians (who were actually in power) engaged in gun-running. Not that southern politicians, also in power, were averse to it either. Hence my usual comment on the whole thing as children with guns.

thehighground

sceptre wrote: »

Been reading An Phoblacht (I call it "that weekly provo rag" in the same way as I call the Irish Indo "the tawdry little rag") have you? The new head of the British Legion in Derry is apparently a former UDR/more recent RIR member according to the November 27 issue, so this may be where your info came from originally. Very badly written article by the way, even by their standards (guns and a gossipy tone don't mix).

No, I didn't read it in An Phoblacht. I (unlike you) don't read it

Can't remember where I came across it but it was most likely either politics.ie or sluggerotoole.com Is it ok to enquire about the truth of the story on this MB from Camelot who from his previous posts seems to be very knowlegeable about the British Legion?

thehighground

Camelot wrote: »

You can relax, there aint any connection between the 'Irish' Poppy Appeal & the UDR .............

Sorry, I don't understand that comment.

LordSutch

thehighground wrote: »

Sorry, I don't understand that comment.

But you said in Post#375

thehighground wrote: »

"Any association between the British Legion and the UDR would not be good publicity in a Poppy appeal down this neck of the woods I'm afraid".

So I then replied "You can relax, there aint any connection between the 'Irish' Poppy Appeal & the UDR"

The 'Irish' Poppy Appeal fund (Dublin) is seperate from the UK Poppy Appeal Fund that you fret about.

RSF Cill Dara

malman wrote: »

Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland? I fear not! Does anybody have some insight into this issue?

Catholic? couldnt tell ya. As for nationalists & Republicans yes they do want a United Ireland.

RobFowl

malman wrote: »

Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland? I fear not! Does anybody have some insight into this issue?

http://www.ums-research.com/reports/2003/opinion_nov03/slides.html

In 2005 45% of catholics preferred a devolved assembly with in the UK as opposed to 28% wanting a united Ireland.
I'm not too sure if this has been repeated since though.

The Corinthian

T runner wrote: »

I think youve missed the point there. A third of those who said they felt they were Northern Irish (1/12 of syrvey respondents) described themselves as equally Irish or British. It didnt give the proportions for the remainer of the Northern Irish group.

Given that a month has passed since I last posted and there are now numerous surveys bouncing about here, could you point to what you're citing?

I believe that 2/3 identified with being either Catholic Irish, or Protestant British. The mixed identity is not the majority view, the exclusive identity is.

I never denied this. The point that the article made is that the distinct (as opposed to mixed) identity is both significant and has grown.

I would agree with LuckyFrank here. All the main southern parties bar Pds, Greens have a united Ireland as an objective. Correct me if wrong here. (or anywhere else)

No one denies that all the main southern parties have a united Ireland as an objective, in principle. Principle and practice are another thing though.

This 2006 survey in the Sunday Business post points to 80% wanting a united ireland in the republic.

Again, no-one denies this. Over a few pints of porter, I'll sing a nation once again with the best of them. It is when the reality of such a situation hits home though; when we see the price that we will need to pay for unification, that the real figures will come out. After all, the vast majority in Cyprus have sought unification for a long time, but when it came to a referendum they said no in the end.

There is no middle ground option for voters (not even alliance and SDLP).

True, but as with southern politics, it is one thing to be one way or another in principle and another in practice, and as demographics change so will the de facto policies of the parties there.

Or do you believe that playing lip service to principle while doing the opposite is an alien concept in politics?

ShotgunPaddy

RobFowl wrote: »

http://www.ums-research.com/reports/2003/opinion_nov03/slides.html

In 2005 45% of catholics preferred a devolved assembly with in the UK as opposed to 28% wanting a united Ireland.
I'm not too sure if this has been repeated since though.

I browsed through that site and cannot actually see that figure. The really interesting statistic in the 2005 poll is that only 37% of Prostestants have a lot of confidence in the PSNI. That's very surprising.

http://www.ums-research.com/reports/2005/opinion_mar05/slides.html

ShotgunPaddy

The UK census has "White British" and "White Irish" categories. Why don' the Pollsters use these categories in Northern Ireland?

RobFowl

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

I browsed through that site and cannot actually see that figure. The really interesting statistic in the 2005 poll is that only 37% of Prostestants have a lot of confidence in the PSNI. That's very surprising.

http://www.ums-research.com/reports/2005/opinion_mar05/slides.html

Sorry that link seems wrong heres the correct link
http://www.ums-research.com/reports/2003/opinion_nov03/slides.html
Its the 4th graph down.
Sinn Fein voters are the only group to favour a united Ireland above this (of the NI parties)

murphaph

Lads, as a NI resident, you'd need your head examined to vote to leave the UK given the present circumstances. The UK is a much larger economy, better placed to ride out this global recession than us. NI is even luckier-very high proportion of government jobs coupled with a land border with a strong Euro. For the time being, NI is much better off in the UK than out. Catholics work in the civil service up there in large numbers-they aren't going to vote to make themselves unemployed in a nation with little by way of a safety net!

RiverWilde

Who the hell would want to unite with the Banana Republic of Ireland?

A country in which the establishment looks after itself and the rest of the population can either emigrate or suffer god awful public services and poor job prospects.

A country where access to education and training is difficult and down right impossible to access at best - (Doubling of University registration fees? - assuming a place is available of course!)

A country that frowns upon families. Both Parents are forced into employment (assuming employment is still available).

A country where it is cost effective to leave the jurisdiction to do your weekly grocery shopping - (This was the case before the Pound started to weaken against the Euro).

I could go on but I've better things to do.

Riv

K-9

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

I browsed through that site and cannot actually see that figure. The really interesting statistic in the 2005 poll is that only 37% of Prostestants have a lot of confidence in the PSNI. That's very surprising.

http://www.ums-research.com/reports/2005/opinion_mar05/slides.html

37% is low, would have expected about 50 but it's a vague question!

murphaph wrote: »

Lads, as a NI resident, you'd need your head examined to vote to leave the UK given the present circumstances. The UK is a much larger economy, better placed to ride out this global recession than us. NI is even luckier-very high proportion of government jobs coupled with a land border with a strong Euro. For the time being, NI is much better off in the UK than out. Catholics work in the civil service up there in large numbers-they aren't going to vote to make themselves unemployed in a nation with little by way of a safety net!

Yep, the Govt. subventions are huge. It is very dependent on Public Sector jobs and Govt. funding, though we are catching up on the jobs side.