Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

LordSutch

So 402,658 people in Northern Ireland have either renewed an Irish passport (or got one for the first time).

As regards Northern Irish people being British, well YES that is true for the majority of people living in that part of the United Kingdom, and to be honest, there is such a fine line between being British or Irish, Celtic, Northern Irish, Anglo Saxon, Scottish, Welsh, English, that it hardly matters anyway in this day & age, its a personal choice as well as being a regional/cultural thing .

What is the difference between British or Irish? the Queen or Mary McAleese? this island or the one next door? > it makes little or no difference to me, I consider being british or irish to be a regional/ cultural thing with the differences between one or the other being very minor, much like the blurred boundaries between some of the Christian Churches who, when looked at closely are pretty similar.

The Corinthian

Camelot wrote: »

the Queen or Mary McAleese?

If we elected David Norris president, we could all cry "God save the Queen", I suppose.

LordSutch

Very Good ) funnelly enough, Norris is fervently Anti Monarchy, even though he is an Anglican & his father was English.

partyguinness

The Corinthian wrote: »

If we elected David Norris president, we could all cry "God save the Queen", I suppose.

Why??

T runner

Camelot wrote: »

.

As regards Northern Irish people being British, well YES that is true for the majority of people living in that part of the United Kingdom, and to be honest, there is such a fine line between being British or Irish, Celtic, Northern Irish, Anglo Saxon, Scottish, Welsh, English, that it hardly matters anyway in this day & age, its a personal choice as well as being a regional/cultural thing .

What is the difference between British or Irish? the Queen or Mary McAleese? this island or the one next door? > it makes little or no difference to me, I consider being british or irish to be a regional/ cultural thing with the differences between one or the other being very minor, much like the blurred boundaries between some of the Christian Churches who, when looked at closely are pretty similar.

Most people in Britain and Ireland see large differences between being British and being Irish. The fact that national identities in Scotland and Wales have lasted till this day shows this. The fact also that a majority of Scots
are in favour of splitting with England is telling.

Also the fact that most of the population and 5/6 of the land area of Ireland are part of a distinct sovereign democratic state militates against "one British nationality with several regions theory".

The Union of the countries in this part of the world hasn't been a happy coming together of like minds. It stems from one powerful country conquering and controlling the others by right of Conquest in some cases, (I dont know if the Welsh were as lucky).

Im not complaining: its history. But the legacy of that history is that a significant amount of people from the Island of Britain dont consider that their nationality.

Even the (Pro Union) Belfast Historian ATQ Stewart was clear. He described the North Eastern protestants loyalties as Supra-National. I.e to a country that is not their own. The reason for this loyalty he argued, was not because they were "British" but because they wanted to remain part of a majority and they feared being part of a minority.

I would argue that the British identity in Northern Ireland is more a "not Irish" identity. This may have took the form of "we are descendants of British planters" in the past. That cant go on forever. The rationalising now to explain how some people born in Ireland consider themselves British is that we are all British!

There are many reasons why a borders exists in Ireland (and Britain) but that we are one big happy family (and all British) of Scots, Welsh, English, Irish and British is not one of them.

LordSutch

T runner wrote: »

Most people in Britain and Ireland see large differences between being British and being Irish.

Well, that depends on the degree of Irishness or Britishness that one inhabits. for example/ I dont speak Irish, I dont play Gaelic Games, I dont have an Irish name, but I do play Rugby, I work for Vodafone, I shop in Tesco, I have an Anglo/Norman name, my friends are English, Irish, Welsh & I even have a Scottish Uncle, I am not Roman Catholic, My Granddad was in the Royal Navy, I wear a Poppy in November, My parents were born in Dublin > So what am I ? What should I be ? . . . Irish or British?

T runner wrote: »

The fact also that a majority of Scots are in favour of splitting with England is telling.

Oh yeah, are you sure about that one :rolleyes:

T runner wrote: »

Also the fact that most of the population and 5/6 of the land area of Ireland are part of a distinct sovereign democratic state militates against "one British nationality with several regions theory".

But there are four distinct regions within the UK, Northern Ireland being one of them. England, Wales, & Scotland being the others . . . .

T runner wrote: »

The Union of the countries in this part of the world hasn't been a happy coming together of like minds. It stems from one powerful country conquering and controlling the others by right of Conquest in some cases, (I dont know if the Welsh were as lucky).

I disagree 100%, I think the Union has served everybody very well indeed, admittedly Central Government in London wasnt always ideal, but now with devolution the Union is changing with the times. (the word 'Conquest' belongs to another era).

T runner wrote: »

Im not complaining: its history. But the legacy of that history is that a significant amount of people from the Island of Britain dont consider that their nationality.

And a significant amount of people on this island do consider themselves British

T runner wrote: »

There are many reasons why a borders exists in Ireland (and Britain) but that we are one big happy family (and all British) of Scots, Welsh, English, Irish and British is not one of them.

I disagree T runner > from my perspective the differences are neglegable.

luckyfrank

Camelot wrote: »

Well, that depends on the degree of Irishness or Britishness that one inhabits. for example/ I dont speak Irish, I dont play Gaelic Games, I dont have an Irish name, but I do play Rugby, I work for Vodafone, I shop in Tesco, I have an Anglo/Norman name, my friends are English, Irish, Welsh & I even have a Scottish Uncle, I am not Roman Catholic, My Granddad was in the Royal Navy, I wear a Poppy in November, My parents were born in Dublin > So what am I ? What should I be ? . . . Irish or British?



Oh yeah, are you sure about that one :rolleyes:



But there are four distinct regions within the UK, Northern Ireland being one of them. England, Wales, & Scotland being the others . . . .



I disagree 100%, I think the Union has served everybody very well indeed, admittedly Central Government in London wasnt always ideal, but now with devolution the Union is changing with the times. (the word 'Conquest' belongs to another era).



And a significant amount of people on this island do consider themselves British



I disagree T runner > from my perspective the differences are neglegable.

If your parents were born in ireland and you were born in ireland then your irish

Your religion and who your friends are have no bearing on your nationailty

I know your a supporter of the union and i wouldnt blame you for feeling a little confused with your irish/britishness

You'd be in a similar mould to carson i would think trying to reconcile your irishness to your britishness

Fratton Fred

luckyfrank wrote: »

If your parents were born in ireland and you were born in ireland then your irish

Your religion and who your friends are have no bearing on your nationailty

I know your a supporter of the union and i wouldnt blame you for feeling a little confused with your irish/britishness

You'd be in a similar mould to carson i would think trying to reconcile your irishness to your britishness

I was born in England, my parents were too. We are all English...and British.
I see no confusion.

to lot of people being Irish means being "Not British", I think that is where the confusion comes in. Once those people get more comfortable with their own identity, maybe they can accept that some people consider themselves Irish and British.

luckyfrank

The problem with being british from my perspective is that one country dominates the others

What did we the irish ever get out of the union besides bloodshed and tears

We were let starve in our millions while we were in the richest most powerful empire the world has ever seeing


The british identity was something made up by the the english in the middle-ages so they could command loyality from what was really foreign peoples with there own culture, Welsh,Scots,Irish

Permabear

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luckyfrank

donegalfella wrote: »

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If you can name a benifit id like to hear one ?

TOMASJ

Camelot wrote: »

So 402,658 people in Noether Ireland have either renewed an Irish passport (or got one for the first time).

Thats a lot more than Getz led us to believe

--remember most northern irish people can take out a Irish republic passport if they want -and it seems they dont want too--

Any info on how many british passports are held by residents in the six counties?

LordSutch

luckyfrank wrote: »

You'd be in a similar mould to carson i would think trying to reconcile your irishness to your britishness

Yes indeed luckyfrank, you might have something there.

LordSutch

TOMASJ wrote: »

Thats a lot more than Getz led us to believe . . .

I got that figure (402,658) from the Link you posted in Post#419

TOMASJ

Camelot wrote: »

I got that figure (402,658) from the Link you posted in Post#419

Any info on how many british passports are held by residents in the six counties?

LordSutch

No, i'm afraid not.

djpbarry

luckyfrank wrote: »

What did we the irish ever get out of the union besides bloodshed and tears

Oh, of course. When Ireland gained independence it was exactly as it had been when the Brits first invaded in 6500BC. Except for all the rivers of blood, of course.

TOMASJ wrote: »

Any info on how many british passports are held by residents in the six counties?

What difference does it make?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

TOMASJ

djpbarry wrote: »

What difference does it make?

Just curious Getz suggested that

Getz
--remember most northern irish people can take out a irish republic passport if they want -and it seems they dont want too--

The facts are that over 400.000 Irish passports are held by people in the six counties, and I presume quiet a few are from a protestant background,
It may be the best indication as to what nationality the population in the six counties see themselves

elshambo

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

We need to get away from a simplistic breakdown of the NI population into Protestants and Catholics. What about non Christians?

Ya but are they:
Catholic non Christians
or
Protestant non Christians?

What about turning into a Semi-Independant nation as part of Britain (let the english pay for them!)
The auld Alternative Ulster!?
They should rename the place from NI to a name more suitable to a new triving country full of people who dont like each other
+ give it its OWN identity?

Of course they would need new parties as the politicans up there make Bertie Ahern look like Obama
They couldnt run a red light!

gurramok

TOMASJ wrote: »

The facts are that over 400.000 Irish passports are held by people in the six counties, and I presume quiet a few are from a protestant background,
It may be the best indication as to what nationality the population in the six counties see themselves

Thats an awful lot considering most holders would be adults as most children don't get passports unless their parents say so

The Corinthian

Why are people discussing passports?

There are plenty of people in the World who are eligible for more than one passport; their choice to use one or another is hardly an indication of national identity though. One common reason for having an Irish passport is that it is 'safer' than being identified as British or American when travelling, for example - there are plenty of British and American citizens who qualify for Irish passports and carry one for precisely this reason, even though they would not really view themselves as Irish. Similarly, there are plenty of Irish people who, by accident of birth, have American passports.

Indeed, I'm eligible to have two passports, and the choice I made was not based upon any sense of patriotism, but the simple fact that one was €16 cheaper than the other.

As such, suggesting that holding an Irish passport is an indication of national allegiance is a pretty flawed premise.

gurramok

Thats odd, i'm on the opposite side of fence to Corinthian.

I too was entitled to two passports but it was not the euro sign that swayed my decision but pride of my nationality to hold one wherever I travelled.

The Corinthian

gurramok wrote: »

Thats odd, i'm on the opposite side of fence to Corinthian.

I too was entitled to two passports but it was not the euro sign that swayed my decision but pride of my nationality to hold one wherever I travelled.

I worked with a Northern Unionist (who I remember when I first saw his CV, put his nationality down as British) who had an Irish passport. I never asked him why he had it, but I would imagine it had nothing to do with pride in his nationality.

Ultimately what your, or my reasoning is not really relevant, only that reasons to have one or more passports differ and so you cannot assume that simply because X number of people have an Irish passport, they do so because of reasons of national identity.

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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Seeing as we had a mode of communication beforehand, thats a rather nonsensical idea.

Seeing as it seems to be the fate of small nations to inevitably have some unpleasant 'close encounter' with larger, I've always thought we would have been far better off culturally had we been invaded by the French.

gurramok

The Corinthian wrote: »

I worked with a Northern Unionist (who I remember when I first saw his CV, put his nationality down as British) who had an Irish passport. I never asked him why he had it, but I would imagine it had nothing to do with pride in his nationality.

Ultimately what your, or my reasoning is not really relevant, only that reasons to have one or more passports differ and so you cannot assume that simply because X number of people have an Irish passport, they do so because of reasons of national identity.

Then the same applies to holders of British passports, we just don't know where the loyalty is.

The Corinthian

Nodin wrote: »

Seeing as it seems to be the fate of small nations to inevitably have some unpleasant 'close encounter' with larger, I've always thought we would have been far better off culturally had we been invaded by the French.

The cuisine would be better, but I would agree that English as a national language is of more use in the current World than French - albeit due to the Americans, rather than the UK.

gurramok wrote: »

Then the same applies to holders of British passports, we just don't know where the loyalty is.

Same as with everyone else; their family and community. You'll find that this will supersede national loyalties more often than not.

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

I've always thought we would have been far better off culturally had we been invaded by the French.

Thank God Nelson put paid to that ..............

The Corinthian

Camelot wrote: »

Thank God Nelson put paid to that ..............

And he was an Irishman... or a horse... I can never remember...

djpbarry

Nodin wrote: »

Seeing as we had a mode of communication beforehand, thats a rather nonsensical idea.

Is it? Have we not benefited economically as a result of our being an English-speaking country?