Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

Nodin · 13-01-2009 12:44pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

The cuisine would be better, but I would agree that English as a national language is of more use in the current World than French - albeit due to the Americans, rather than the UK.

Thats not that good a thing though.....As a result the various ex-colonies are culturally swamped by the US.

Camelot wrote:

Thank God Nelson put paid to that ..............

Yes, he spared us the nation of Hugo, Proust, Simon, and of Camus, Sartre, Foucault, Poincare, Cezanne, Monet, Renoir....where they still are rumoured to value quality of life over balance sheets...

Jaysus, weren't we lucky.

LordSutch · 13-01-2009 12:57pm

The French are a truly Great people, they have a Great culture, and as has already been pointed out they have a list of luminaries as long as your arm, but admire tham as I do ~ they are French, & they do not have the same cultural or collective background as we do in this 'group of islands'.

(Regional/Cultural variations between the various parts of Britain & Ireland accepted).

Fratton Fred · 13-01-2009 12:58pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

And he was an Irishman... or a horse... I can never remember...

Close, that was Wellington.:D

Nodin wrote: »

Thats not that good a thing though.....As a result the various ex-colonies are culturally swamped by the US.

Yes, he spared us the nation of Hugo, Proust, Simon, and of Camus, Sartre, Foucault, Poincare, Cezanne, Monet, Renoir....where they still are rumoured to value quality of life over balance sheets...

Jaysus, weren't we lucky.

How have ex French colonies faired then? Chad, Cambodia, Vietnam, Niger, Haiti? how exactly would ireland have got on better under France than Britain?

gurramok · 13-01-2009 1:16pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How have ex French colonies faired then? Chad, Cambodia, Vietnam, Niger, Haiti? how exactly would ireland have got on better under France than Britain?

Thats a bit unfair

Britain's non-white colonies did not fair good, just like the non-white ones under French rule.
The white ones with British settlers like Canada/Australia did extremely well but the non-British white ones like Ireland did not.

Basically, anywhere that was settled by white British/French did well as their societies were more educationally advanced and the settlers brought those skills with them.

LordSutch · 13-01-2009 1:20pm

gurramok wrote: »

Britain's non-white colonies did not fair good, The white ones with British settlers like Canada/Australia did extremely well but the non-British white ones like Ireland did not.

I dont accept the term 'Colony' in relation to Ireland.

Nodin · 13-01-2009 2:20pm

Camelot wrote: »

The French are a truly Great people, they have a Great culture, and as has already been pointed out they have a list of luminaries as long as your arm, but admire tham as I do ~ they are French, & they do not have the same cultural or collective background as we do in this 'group of islands'.

(Regional/Cultural variations between the various parts of Britain & Ireland accepted).

Seeing as not a few of those similarities are due to past rule by the same Empire, that seems a tad circular.

The Corinthian · 13-01-2009 2:22pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Close, that was Wellington.:D

Upps. Quite right. My mistake.

LordSutch · 13-01-2009 5:30pm

Nodin wrote: »

Seeing as not a few of those similarities are due to past rule by the same Empire, that seems a tad circular.

If you think outside the void those few disimilarities become eliptical in origin due to Imperial husbandry.

Deedsie · 13-01-2009 5:34pm

Camelot wrote: »

I dont accept the term 'Colony' in relation to Ireland.

How come?

LordSutch · 13-01-2009 5:42pm

The term 'Colony' in connection with Ireland has only become popular (trendy) in the last ten to twelve years. My views are well known about the british isles being a family of islands, & this is at the core of my rebuf, nuff said.

I dont like 'Trends'.

Nodin · 13-01-2009 9:08pm

Camelot wrote: »

The term 'Colony' in connection with Ireland has only become popular (trendy) in the last ten to twelve years.

Don't think so, and I'm 39....Still, memory can be unreliable...

TOMASJ · 13-01-2009 11:44pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Why are people discussing passports?

Started in post 418

One common reason for having an Irish passport is that it is 'safer' than being identified as British or American when travelling, for example - there are plenty of British and American citizens who qualify for Irish passports and carry one for precisely this reason, even though they would not really view themselves as Irish.

Yes that is quite right "and was always the case"
but it does not explain, the big increase of 60.000 applicants in one year 2007, there is only one conclusion that can be drawn from that 60.000 increase, more and more people in the six counties see themselves as Irish.

LordSutch · 14-01-2009 12:07am

In relation to the Colony question, I left secendary school in the early 80s & there was no mention of Ireland being a Colony/ Ex Colony or otherwise, I have grown up here and can safely say that the the use of the term (in relation to Ireland) has grown massively since 1997 ...............

When I was at school the term 'Colony' was synonymous with territories thousands of miles away, the Colonies meant 'The States', India, Australia, New Zealand > but not the island next door (just 24 miles away)!

The Corinthian · 14-01-2009 8:36am

TOMASJ wrote: »

but it does not explain[/B], the big increase of 60.000 applicants in one year 2007, there is only one conclusion that can be drawn from that 60.000 increase, more and more people in the six counties see themselves as Irish.

Or that the process of acquiring one has become a lot easier since. Or that travelling on a non-British passport has become more attractive since the Gulf War. Or that national identity in NI is increasingly becoming less polarized and more 'dual' (after all, how many are seeking British passports too, and is that an indication of their Britishness?).

Correlation does not imply causation, and there are simply too many potential reasons for anyone to seek an Irish passports, and too many factors that the passport discussion is ignoring (such as how many of those 60,000 hold British passports too) for anyone to come to such a conclusion - especially in light of all the surveys that already directly ask the question of national identity.

getz · 14-01-2009 10:33am

TOMASJ wrote: »

The Corinthian wrote: »

Started in post 418

Yes that is quite right "and was always the case"
but it does not explain, the big increase of 60.000 applicants in one year 2007, there is only one conclusion that can be drawn from that 60.000 increase, more and more people in the six counties see themselves as Irish.

the main reson that brits are taking out a irish passport is due to the fact that both british and irish goverments are now introducing a passport system between the UK and northern ireland and the republic, most of the people who travel between both nations are retired or on a pension a very large amount of them are going home to ireland to family -in the passed no passport was needed so most have never had one-- the UK passport is very expensive costs an arm and leg it is not free the the retired unless you reach 75, the republic passport is free to pensioners so the lucky brits who qualify save a lot of money and go for the irish one, the rest of us who have never had a brit passport and may have a problem proving our identity may have to stay in the uk --this also includes believe it or not a lot of irish born pensioners in the uk who no longer have family alive in the republic and they allso are unable to prove there background-i have in the passed contacted a british MP to pose the question and have been told that both goverments are very much aware of this-but as yet ?

gurramok · 14-01-2009 10:52am

It was posted about NI applicants. Never thought of the applicants from Britain, there would be an army of Irish pensioners alright.
Never thought that British pensioners with that dodgy granny

would be in such dire straights financially, how much does a British passport cost so as to to compare a passport from a foreign country like Ireland?

Irlbo · 14-01-2009 10:57am

Camelot wrote: »

In relation to the Colony question, I left secendary school in the early 80s & there was no mention of Ireland being a Colony/ Ex Colony or otherwise, I have grown up here and can safely say that the the use of the term (in relation to Ireland) has grown massively since 1997 ...............

When I was at school the term 'Colony' was synonymous with territories thousands of miles away, the Colonies meant 'The States', India, Australia, New Zealand > but not the island next door (just 24 miles away)!

Ireland most certainly was a colony(partly still is),an independant nation with its own unique traditions,culture and spiritual identidy,forcibly occupied by a foreign empire and assimilated forcibly into that empire,enforcing its language ways and laws upon us,planting is own people here to maintain power on the island,this isnt made up,its history,and there's only one way to describe it,colonisation!

getz · 14-01-2009 11:13am

gurramok wrote: »

It was posted about NI applicants. Never thought of the applicants from Britain, there would be an army of Irish pensioners alright.
Never thought that British pensioners with that dodgy granny would be in such dire straights financially, how much does a British passport cost so as to to compare a passport from a foreign country like Ireland?

the british passport costs £72 unless you are over 75 years old add that to the high travel insurance i have to pay to go to the republic[it is considered far more dangerous than northern ireland ] i dont know why -remember the republic is a very expensive country so every pensioner is trying to cut costs-all this adds up --[i dont supose you can claim i am your missing grandad could you ?] then bejesus i am irish

jimmmy · 14-01-2009 11:14am

100 years ago we were united with Britain and had world class infrastructure eg trains, harbours ( the airports of their time ), universities, canals, public buildings etc. Many train journeys then took the same amount of time as they do now !. 100 years ago a letter got to London from Ireland quicker than it does now ! Colonisation was the done thing in Europe in centuries gone by - Belgium, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Holland etc were all at it, and Ireland on its own would have been at it if it was strong enough ( the same as eg Achill would be a republic now if it was strong enough - like if it had enough people + resources etc ). Did you know than 25% of the British administration in India was made up of Irish people ? We played a large part in Britains administration of 25% of the world. Ireland was not a colony, we were relatively speaking part of the first world at the time, the same as eg Scotland. The history of this island is interwoven with our neighbouring island, the same as the two islands of New Zealand are interconnected for example.

Irlbo · 14-01-2009 11:35am

jimmmy wrote: »

100 years ago we were united with Britain and had world class infrastructure eg trains, harbours ( the airports of their time ), universities, canals, public buildings etc. Many train journeys then took the same amount of time as they do now !. 100 years ago a letter got to London from Ireland quicker than it does now ! Colonisation was the done thing in Europe in centuries gone by - Belgium, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Holland etc were all at it, and Ireland on its own would have been at it if it was strong enough ( the same as eg Achill would be a republic now if it was strong enough - like if it had enough people + resources etc ). Did you know than 25% of the British administration in India was made up of Irish people ? We played a large part in Britains administration of 25% of the world. Ireland was not a colony, we were relatively speaking part of the first world at the time, the same as eg Scotland. The history of this island is interwoven with our neighbouring island, the same as the two islands of New Zealand are interconnected for example.

So that makes imperealism and forced occupation OK?,sure as the old saying goes 'At least Hitler made the trains run on time....................''

Deedsie · 14-01-2009 11:40am

Irlbo wrote: »

Ireland most certainly was a colony(partly still is),an independant nation with its own unique traditions,culture and spiritual identidy,forcibly occupied by a foreign empire and assimilated forcibly into that empire,enforcing its language ways and laws upon us,planting is own people here to maintain power on the island,this isnt made up,its history,and there's only one way to describe it,colonisation!

I think id have to agree with this view of Ireland under British rule. We may have had great infrastructure at the time. But we also had to suffer through two famines, mass emigration, Landlords and upper classes controlling everything. No representation for catholics for a time, Ireland was never comfortable as a Dominion/colony/country of the UK.

We are a fundamentally different race of people.

In my opinion!

getz · 14-01-2009 11:48am

Deedsie wrote: »

I think id have to agree with this view of Ireland under British rule. We may have had great infrastructure at the time. But we also had to suffer through two famines, mass emigration, Landlords and upper classes controlling everything. No representation for catholics for a time, Ireland was never comfortable as a Dominion/colony/country of the UK.

We are a fundamentally different race of people.

In my opinion!

how are you different from the races over the water?

TOMASJ · 14-01-2009 11:54am

jimmmy wrote: »

100 years ago we were united with Britain and had world class infrastructure eg trains, harbours ( the airports of their time ),

Things have went down hill a lot since then Jimmy, the six counties are still under british rule and have a far worst infrastructure than the 26 counties as you would notice as soon as you arrive at the border at Newry, when you come shopping from the south (if you are from the 26) to take advantage of the rate on free falling british pound.

Deedsie · 14-01-2009 11:58am

getz wrote: »

how are you different from the races over the water?

Is there not an Irish race, a British race, a French race?

Or is that based on Colour?

A different people suit you better?

Are you asking me personally how i am different or how i feel Irish people are different from British people?

jimmmy · 14-01-2009 12:00pm

TOMASJ wrote: »

Things have went down hill a lot since then Jimmy,

Have to agree with you there. The train journey in the 26 counties takes longer now than it did when we were part of the UK, to send a letter to London takes longer, us Irish consumers are taxed out of it and have to go to the UK ( which includes N. Ireland ) just to buy supermarket stuff...witness the multitudes flocking across the border. All this despite the tens of billions we have received in EC handouts ( mainly from Germany and the UK, the 2 biggest contributers to the EC ) and the billions we are borrowing on our national debt.

getz · 14-01-2009 12:21pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Is there not an Irish race, a British race, a French race?

Or is that based on Colour?

A different people suit you better?

Are you asking me personally how i am different or how i feel Irish people are different from British people?

all the people on these isles have inter mixed for over a 1000 years it has been said there is more irish in the british than in the republic, its not true of cause but when you realize in cities like manchester and liverpool one third of the peoples ancestors came from ireland just check there surnames. and in ireland how much british blood is there ? again check the surnames -the population off the two cities is 3 million that makes 1 million people with irish blood --then there is the rest of britain

Irlbo · 14-01-2009 12:37pm

getz wrote: »

how are you different from the races over the water?

We have our own language,tradition,culture,doesnt that give us our own identity as a race

The Corinthian · 14-01-2009 12:37pm

Irlbo wrote: »

So that makes imperealism and forced occupation OK?,sure as the old saying goes 'At least Hitler made the trains run on time....................''

I invoke Godwin's_law.

The Corinthian · 14-01-2009 12:43pm

Irlbo wrote: »

We have our own language,tradition,culture,doesnt that give us our own identity as a race

It may give us an identity as an ethnic group, or nation, but not as a race. Race is a biological concept.

Also, doesn't the population in NI have quite a different language, tradition and culture to the Republic? Last time I checked it was - even amongst the nationalists there. Does that not make them a different ethnic group or nation?

gurramok · 14-01-2009 12:51pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

It may give us an identity as an ethnic group, or nation, but not as a race. Race is a biological concept.

Also, doesn't the population in NI have quite a different language, tradition and culture to the Republic? Last time I checked it was - even amongst the nationalists there. Does that not make them a different ethnic group or nation?

That makes them the same ethnic group as us in ROI(the nationalists of both religions). An artificial border does not change anything.

Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

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