Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

getz

Irlbo wrote: »

We have our own language,tradition,culture,doesnt that give us our own identity as a race

dose this frighten you ? in the irish republic the population is about 3.5 million-in the uk there is about 6 million people with irish grand parents all of who can claim irish passports-your goverment thinks they are irish--can be checked your tradition is the same as the uk,- full of irish pubs and clubs we have the same culture[we piss in the same pot]and the uk also has many languages-you dont have 6 toes do you ?

Deedsie

The Corinthian wrote: »

It may give us an identity as an ethnic group, or nation, but not as a race. Race is a biological concept.

Also, doesn't the population in NI have quite a different language, tradition and culture to the Republic? Last time I checked it was - even amongst the nationalists there. Does that not make them a different ethnic group or nation?

Well the nine counties of Ulster play Hurling and Gaelic Football. Thats a uniform use of Irish Traditions accross the province. Armagh, Tyrone, Derry, Down and Antrim have all played or won a senior All Ireland Final in either Hurling or Football in the last twenty years. There is a strong trad Irish music in the North?

Unionists in the North follow Rugby and Soccer? Ulster even won a Heineken Cup. I think Munster won two. Thats fairly similar. Irish Soccer plays a cross border setanta cup tournament.

There is call for a Language bill that has been blocked i think?

Language, tradition and culture seems similar to me. Not uniform, but that would be boring.

Well if we were to change the word race with a person who considers themselves and there lineage as Irish, British, French. Whats the term for that?

The Corinthian

Deedsie wrote: »

Well the nine counties of Ulster play Hurling and Gaelic Football.

We also play soccer - does that make us all English? Especially as we all seem to support UK teams.

Unionists in the North follow Rugby and Soccer?

So do the English and Scots. Actually so do the Italians.

There is call for a Language bill that has been blocked i think?

Which one? Irish or Ulster Scots?

Language, tradition and culture seems similar to me. Not uniform, but that would be boring.

Again you can say that of the Scots, English or Welsh - should we reintroduce the Act of Union?

Well if we were to change the word race with a person who considers themselves and there lineage as Irish, British, French. Whats the term for that?

Strictly speaking it would be a cultural group or sub-group. One could also argue ethnicity, but that implies a racial factor, which is debatable. Race is certainly the wrong term as it is purely biological - Phil Lynott was (partially) a different race, but culturally (and arguably ethnically) was Irish.

LordSutch

Whats an Ethnic group anyway? are the Scots an Ethnic Group? are the Welsh an Ethnic group? are the English an Ethnic group in Britain? are the British an Ethnic Group in Ireland?

I dunno? > i'm just asking the question, because I can see so many contradictions & overlaps with the 'Ethnic' question, which always baffles me when talking about the people who live on these islands.

Asians, Poles, Africans, Chinese are the Ethnic groups in 'Britain & Ireland' as far as I can decern.

I am from the South but I certainly dont feel part of a different Ethnic group when in southern England, but funnelly enough I do feel totally out of place & different when visiting Northern Ireland or Scotland, and even then (not ethnically different) ~ just regionally different!

getz

Camelot wrote: »

Whats an Ethnic group anyway? are the Scots an Ethnic Group? are the Welsh an Ethnic group? are the English an Ethnic group in Britain? are the British an Ethnic Group in Ireland? which then leads on to a host of other questions! are the English an Ethnic group in Ireland, are the Welsh ..............

I dunno, i'm just asking the question, because I can see so many contradictions & overlaps with the 'Ethnic' question, which always baffles me when talking about the people who live on these islands.

Asians, Poles, Africans, Chinese are Ethnic groups as far as I can decern.

yes we are one big melting pot

Irlbo

The Corinthian wrote: »

It may give us an identity as an ethnic group, or nation, but not as a race. Race is a biological concept.

Also, doesn't the population in NI have quite a different language, tradition and culture to the Republic? Last time I checked it was - even amongst the nationalists there. Does that not make them a different ethnic group or nation?

Hmm its debateable,I think its more then just biology,culture,language,religion,traditions,I think these things need to be accounted for equally as to biology,and I do think genetically we would differ from Britons...........................................................................................the population in the 6 counties excluding the nationalists(who would account for near 50%) and non-nationals who are the sizeable presense there now,we're talking unionists have a very vague and scant culture,which is mainly exercised through fundemental protestantism and a devotion to Britain,I wouldnt say they would have a unique culture,maybe different religion,but that doesnt have anything to do with race or nationality,we all live and were born on the Ireland of Ireland,people can belong to whatever religion they want,but are Irish none the less

The Corinthian

Irlbo wrote: »

I think these things need to be accounted for equally as to biology,and I do think genetically we would differ from Britons

I was only commenting as to your erroneous use of 'race' when discussing cultural issues, as it's the wrong term.

we're talking unionists have a very vague and scant culture,which is mainly exercised through fundemental protestantism and a devotion to Britain

Isn't that just a tad dismissive?

we all live and were born on the Ireland of Ireland,people can belong to whatever religion they want,but are Irish none the less

On the island of Ireland I presume you meant? Then given we were all born in the continent of Europe, we're all Europeans too...

Irlbo

getz wrote: »

dose this frighten you ? in the irish republic the population is about 3.5 million-in the uk there is about 6 million people with irish grand parents all of who can claim irish passports-your goverment thinks they are irish--can be checked your tradition is the same as the uk,- full of irish pubs and clubs we have the same culture[we piss in the same pot]and the uk also has many languages-you dont have 6 toes do you ?

No thats to do with Irish people that immigrated or whose ancestors have immigrated,totally separate issue,they came from Ireland of course we share ancestry,the fact they live in Britain doesnt distort that fact,we're dealing with the heritage of Ireland and its own unique culture,your arguments irrelevant,and no I have 5 toes,if you have 6 toes Id be worried mate

Deedsie

The Corinthian wrote: »

We also play soccer - does that make us all English? Especially as we all seem to support UK teams.

So do the English and Scots. Actually so do the Italians.

Which one? Irish or Ulster Scots?

Again you can say that of the Scots, English or Welsh - should we reintroduce the Act of Union?

Strictly speaking it would be a cultural group or sub-group. One could also argue ethnicity, but that implies a racial factor, which is debatable. Race is certainly the wrong term as it is purely biological - Phil Lynott was (partially) a different race, but culturally (and arguably ethnically) was Irish.

I am just saying that all communities of the North are similar to the People of Ireland. I commented that we have a cross border soccer tournament.

Ireland has alot in common with the UK, but Ireland is different in its culture to the mainland UK. I think the North and Ireland have alot more in common throughout nationalist and Unionist communities than the North has with the mainland UK. IMO

Irlbo

Isn't that just a tad dismissive?
No I dont think so,I think its fairly accurate,do you think unionists share the same sort of national and cultural identidy as we'll say the Spainish or Chinese do,I dont think there is a comparison,theirs is a very vague and blurry identidy which revolves around thier religion(nothing to do with race or nationality) and an idea they belong to the British empire mainly because its being handed down to them from their forefathers,what would you say makes the unionist community special as a culture or nationality,that would justify the occupation of the 6 counties?

Irlbo

Deedsie wrote: »

I am just saying that all communities of the North are similar to the People of Ireland. I commented that we have a cross border soccer tournament.

Ireland has alot in common with the UK, but Ireland is different in its culture to the mainland UK. I think the North and Ireland have alot more in common throughout nationalist and Unionist communities than the North has with the mainland UK. IMO

Your right there,kinda the point Im trying to make above,what makes unionists unique in their culture?and how does it tie them to Britain other then them claiming that they are British?

LordSutch

Question 4 you Irlbo "How would you relate to my personal observation made in Post#485"

Would you concur on any of my points? or hold a completly different view?

The Corinthian

Deedsie wrote: »

I am just saying that all communities of the North are similar to the People of Ireland.

And I retorted that they are on much the same level as the English, Welsh or Scots, IMHO.

gurramok wrote: »

That makes them the same ethnic group as us in ROI(the nationalists of both religions). An artificial border does not change anything.

Just saw this post:

• People are the same ethnic group based upon their ideology (nationalism). Forget that ideology has nothing to do with ethnicity.
• Artificial borders do not change this - as opposed to natural ones, I suppose...

I like you gurramok; you remind me of when I was young and clueless.

Irlbo

Id be of the opinion an ethnic group is a group or groups of people that reside in a place they do not originate from,so in that case I suppose I would find unionists an ethnic group as they are group of peoples that claim to be distinctly British and hold british values and customs and most likely originated from Britain through plantation,but reside on the Island of Ireland,a distinct sovreign nation with its own specific culture and identidy which is home to its own race of people,so I think this would make unionist a specific ethnic group within Ireland,they are not an indigonous people(hope spelled that right),and Im sure would not want to be known as such.....................................and it regards England and my travels there,I know we have alot of similarities,same colour skin,share a language,and customs,but I just feel the difference when Ive been over there,and I would certainly think we are separate races of people

Deedsie

The Corinthian wrote: »

And I retorted that they are on much the same level as the English, Welsh or Scots, IMHO.

But you are leaving out all the nationalist community of the North that are active in the GAA. As i mentioned through there sucesses there are many people in the North involved in Gaelic games... Similar to those in the south who'd have nothing to do with Rugby or Soccer. Lots of them around.
These people have the same culture as the people of Ireland. Quite different to the UK.

Whereas Unionists pastimes are also carried out in Ireland. Rugby/Soccer. Granted they are also in the UK but i am just saying that all communities of the North can relate to Ireland and see people with the same sporting culture as them. This is not true for the Northern GAA Supporters when looking to mainland UK?

So based solely on a sporting cultural base (granted not the most important) The North has more in common in a sporting context with Ireland than the North has with the UK. For the average John and Seán Northener?

LordSutch

Thanks 4 the reply Irlbo, and I take your points on board, but I still struggle with the Ethnicity question when it comes to being Ethnically Irish or Ethnically British, I just cant see an 'Ethnic' distinction.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

An artificial border does not change anything.

Virtually every international border is an (often arbitrary) artificial human construct.

LordSutch

Deedsie wrote: »

As i mentioned through there sucesses there are many people in the North involved in Gaelic games... Quite different to the UK.

So based solely on a sporting cultural base (granted not the most important) The North has more in common in a sporting context with Ireland than the North has with the UK. For the average John and Seán Northener?

Sorry to be pedantic Deedsie, but the North is still within the UK.

Maybe you mean Britain ...........

Deedsie

Camelot wrote: »

Sorry to be pedantic Deedsie, but the North is still within the UK.

Maybe you mean Britain ...........

Ya thats fair enough. Just a Freudian slip on my behalf. My apologies.

djpbarry

Deedsie wrote: »

Ireland has alot in common with the UK, but Ireland is different in its culture to the mainland UK.

Is it? From where I’m sitting, Ireland is totally flooded with British culture; sport, TV, tabloid media, cinema, etc.

Irlbo wrote: »

…theirs is a very vague and blurry identidy which revolves around thier religion(nothing to do with race or nationality) and an idea they belong to the British empire mainly because its being handed down to them from their forefathers…

The same could be said for just about any other “ethnic grouping” on the planet, Irish people included. Or perhaps you could explain why “being Irish” is different?

Irlbo wrote: »

Id be of the opinion an ethnic group is a group or groups of people that reside in a place they do not originate from…

So Irish people fall into that category then, don’t they? I mean, there’s no evidence of human activity on this island prior to about 10,000 years ago, so our ancestors must have migrated here form elsewhere.

Deedsie

djpbarry wrote: »

Is it? From where I’m sitting, Ireland is totally flooded with British culture; sport, TV, tabloid media, cinema, etc.

I noticed your location is Dublin. Might be something do do with that view. I know alot of Irish people who wouldnt read any tabloid media, Soccer and Rugby are international sporting events being played on this island for over 100 years. Are Argentinians, Brazilians, Italians immersed in British Culture?

They are a part of Irish culture now. They are still not the largest sporting organisation or the most successful. Thats the GAA. If you are talking about soaps, when you say TV. I hate to say it but you have me there. Horrendous inventions that RTÉ should be made minimize. Apparently Ros na Run is increasing its audience though.

gurramok

The Corinthian wrote: »

And I retorted that they are on much the same level as the English, Welsh or Scots, IMHO.

Just saw this post:

• People are the same ethnic group based upon their ideology (nationalism). Forget that ideology has nothing to do with ethnicity.
• Artificial borders do not change this - as opposed to natural ones, I suppose...

I like you gurramok; you remind me of when I was young and clueless.

Glad you make me feel young again and clueful

Many ethnic groups cross artificial borders, it does not split the idea of nationhood among these groups.

djpbarry wrote:

Is it? From where I’m sitting, Ireland is totally flooded with British culture; sport, TV, tabloid media, cinema, etc.

Must stop eating those hamburgers, i'd turn German next.

Better stop eating pizza like an Italian.

Or stop watching 24 on tv, i'd turn into an American hoping Bauer saves the president

jimmmy

Deedsie wrote: »

Apparently Ros na Run is increasing its audience though.

Who are Ros na Rua ? Were they on X-factor ?

Irish language is a dead language, pity they picked that for a name. In all the years since I left school, I never saw an Irish language newspaper in a newsagents, or heard a sentence of Irish spoken, even though I have travelled widely throughout the 32 counties. What a waste the billions spent on it has been, esp. given the state of our govt. borrowings / the repayments our children + grandchildren will have to make.

Deedsie

jimmmy wrote: »

Who are Ros na Rua ? Were they on X-factor ?

Irish language is a dead language, pity they picked that for a name. In all the years since I left school, I never saw an Irish language newspaper in a newsagents, or heard a sentence of Irish spoken, even though I have travelled widely throughout the 32 counties. What a waste the billions spent on it has been, esp. given the state of our govt. borrowings / the repayments our children + grandchildren will have to make.

Jeez, thats mad. Ros na Rún is a tv soap on Teilifís na Gaeilge.

I did a course in Irish recently, was really good. You wouldnt be long getting it back. I speak Irish when i have someone to speak it with. Its a shame true enough that the language is faltering. But it is far from dead.

The total number of Irish Gaelscoileanna(both inside and outside the Gaeltacht) in Ireland is 368 primary and secondary schools.

Within the Gaeltacht: 127 primary schools : 29 secondary schools with approximately 15,000 students at primary and secondary level.
Outside the Gaeltacht: 171 primary schools: 43 secondary schools with approximately 35,500 students at primary and secondary level.
The "Naíonraí" Irish language preschool movement also has 227 creches across the country with almost 4,000 children attending them.

There are currently over 35,500 pupils(50,000 pupils/students total both inside and outside the Gaeltacht) attending gaelscoileanna, with 298 gaelscoileanna at primary level and 72 schools at post-primary level (gaelcholáistí), in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

You'd never know. A few decades down the line the Gaelic leagues aims for a bilingual Ireland may come to pass?

djpbarry

Deedsie wrote: »

I know alot of Irish people who wouldnt read any tabloid media…

So do I, but the fact remains that a very large number of people in this country regularly read British tabloids. The National Newspapers of Ireland have some figures on readership here. I would imagine British glossy mags also sell very well in Ireland.

Deedsie wrote: »

…Soccer and Rugby are international sporting events being played on this island for over 100 years.

I was actually referring to all the British soccer fans in this country.

Deedsie wrote: »

They are still not the largest sporting organisation or the most successful. Thats the GAA.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that:

Football is the biggest participation and most popular team sport in Ireland, according to the ESRI, with an estimated 450,000 people actively involved on a regular basis.

http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1365&Itemid=9

More on this here:

Soccer is the most popular team sport. GAA football and hurling come sixth and eleventh.

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20070223162340/BKMNINT178_Main%20Text%20Chapters%201-4.pdf

SirHenryGrattan

Camelot wrote: »

So 402,658 people in Northern Ireland have either renewed an Irish passport (or got one for the first time).

As regards Northern Irish people being British, well YES that is true for the majority of people living in that part of the United Kingdom, and to be honest, there is such a fine line between being British or Irish, Celtic, Northern Irish, Anglo Saxon, Scottish, Welsh, English, that it hardly matters anyway in this day & age, its a personal choice as well as being a regional/cultural thing .

What is the difference between British or Irish? the Queen or Mary McAleese? this island or the one next door? > it makes little or no difference to me, I consider being british or irish to be a regional/ cultural thing with the differences between one or the other being very minor, much like the blurred boundaries between some of the Christian Churches who, when looked at closely are pretty similar.

What is the difference between British or Irish? the Queen or Mary McAleese? this island or the one next door? > it makes little or no difference to me, I consider being british or irish to be a regional/ cultural thing with the differences between one or the other being very minor, much like the blurred boundaries between some of the Christian Churches who, when looked at closely are pretty similar.[/QUOTE]

The Irish are more similar in attitude to the Americans and the Australians. In fact they are very like the Australians. Would one say that the Australians are very like the English? Possibly.

The Irish do not have a class system and most of the non Anglo Irish have absolutely no affinity for the Monarchy. That's at least two stark cultural differences.

SirHenryGrattan

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The Irish would have probably become bi-lingual, perhaps like the Scandanavians many of whom speak better English then we do. Have you ever heard a European say they thought their country was disadvantaged because English was not the first language?

SirHenryGrattan

Camelot wrote: »

Thanks 4 the reply Irlbo, and I take your points on board, but I still struggle with the Ethnicity question when it comes to being Ethnically Irish or Ethnically British, I just cant see an 'Ethnic' distinction.

Ethnicity is an imprecise term.

An ethnic group is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on a presumed or real common heritage.

The UK recognizes "White Irish" and "White British" as distinct ethnic groups.

25% of the total UK population or approximately 14 million of the white British claim Irish descent. The 2001 census included the category "White Irish" as an ethnic classification in Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales). Non-British and non-Irish respondents in Great Britain could choose "White Other". Neither of these classifications appeared in Northern Ireland.

I have seen Police Officers request the ethnicity of the driver when issuing traffic infringement notices. The drivers were listed as "White British".

Grudaire

The Corinthian wrote: »

Which one? Irish or Ulster Scots?

Is Ulster Scots actually a language, in the sense does anyone actually use it, when did it come into being, the only experience that I have of it is Waterways Ireland, Uiscebealaí na hÉireann, Wetterways Airleann (or a sign to that effect)

LordSutch

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

The Irish are more similar in attitude to the Americans and the Australians. In fact they are very like the Australians. Would one say that the Australians are very like the English? Possibly.

Its a circular argument SirHenry, yes there are similarities between the Irish & the Aussies & the Yanks, but thats because we (England, Scotland, Ireland & Wales) were the original white settlers ~ so why would'nt there be similarities!

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

The Irish do not have a class system and most of the non Anglo Irish have absolutely no affinity for the Monarchy. That's at least two stark cultural differences.

Yes indeed, there are cultural differences between Ireland & Britain & between various regions of the UK ~ there are many Monarchists in the Republic, and there are just as many Non Monarchists in many parts of Britain, but it doesnt mean that we are all of a different Ethnic group ~ does it?