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Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

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    #512
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Ireland has no class system? Really?


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    #513
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Ireland has alot in common with the UK, but Ireland is different in its culture to the mainland UK. I think the North and Ireland have alot more in common throughout nationalist and Unionist communities than the North has with the mainland UK. IMO

    Don't most southerners go North only to shop? Many indeed possibly most Irish families have relations in Britain, not to mention the hundreds of thousands who have lived at least part of thier lives there over the last century.


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    #514
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    mike65 wrote: »
    Don't most southerners go North only to shop? Many indeed possibly most Irish families have relations in Britain, not to mention the hundreds of thousands who have lived at least part of thier lives there over the last century.

    A few southerners have relations on the nationalist side of the family as you know they are part of the same ethnic group.

    Yes, most Irish families have relations in Britain including mine, whats your point?


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    #515
    RiverWilde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭RiverWilde


    mike65 wrote: »
    Ireland has no class system? Really?

    Yes there is most definitely a class system in Ireland. It just isn't as overt as you'd find in other countries.

    Riv


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    #516
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    mike65 wrote: »
    Don't most southerners go North only to shop? Many indeed possibly most Irish families have relations in Britain, not to mention the hundreds of thousands who have lived at least part of thier lives there over the last century.

    No we dont only travel North to shop, thats not a new phenomenon but at recent levels it is. We travel North to compete in the National Hurling and Football Leagues. To visit family, alot of Irish people work in cross border businesses and attend college in the North. 3 examples that are not just shopping.

    Yes they did, and the majority of Irish Immigrants to the UK still identify themselves as Irish. Highlighting the long existing difference between Irish and British.

    The monarchy issue is one thing that makes me feel very different to Britons. I hate the thought of putting an unelected person on such a pedestle. God knows the Irish government flittered away crazy amounts of money in the past. But how typical Britons can live with this family spending all there money. Keeping a class system in place that is completely unfair to the masses.

    Ireland has a class system, but it is no where near as pronounced as the UK. Mostly middle class now id think.

    Has anyone an opinion on my post at 496?


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    #517
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Deedsie wrote: »
    The monarchy issue is one thing that makes me feel very different to Britons. I hate the thought of putting an unelected person on such a pedestle. God knows the Irish government flittered away crazy amounts of money in the past. But how typical Britons can live with this family spending all there money.

    If the monarchy system is the only thing you can complain about then you have little to worry about. Spain, Denmark, Holland etc have monarchies as well...yet you do not complain about them. The UK monarchy actually pays for itself and generates employment - the cost of it is more than offset by the tourism revenue and goodwill it generates. Unlike our Mary ....the cost of several million per year to sustain her + her overheads has to be spread among our relatively small population.


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    #518
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Deedsie wrote: »
    The monarchy issue is one thing that makes me feel very different to Britons. I hate the thought of putting an unelected person on such a pedestle.
    No we just used to do this for the Pope.

    But he was elected. Sort of.


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    #519
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    No we just used to do this for the Pope.

    But he was elected. Sort of.

    In a Catholic country. How could we? The pope is elected. And as far as i know no Catholic can be K or Q of the UK?

    And Jimmy where did i say its the only thing i have to complain about? I said its a topic that i feel seperates me from Britons. Put words in peoples mouth much. I have lots of other things to complain about.


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    #520
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    SirHenryGrattan wrote: »
    Have you ever heard a European say they thought their country was disadvantaged because English was not the first language?
    It's a very common argument, particularly from Eurosceptics in this country, that should Ireland decide to "go it alone" and leave the EU, one of the key advantages that we would have when competing for foreign investment is the fact that we are an English-speaking country.


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    #521
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Yes they did, and the majority of Irish Immigrants to the UK still identify themselves as Irish. Highlighting the long existing difference between Irish and British.
    It doesn’t highlight anything other than the fact that people will usually identify more strongly with their birthplace than with their current place of residence.
    Deedsie wrote: »
    The monarchy issue is one thing that makes me feel very different to Britons. I hate the thought of putting an unelected person on such a pedestle.
    I’m not a fan of monarchies either, but as jimmmy has already pointed out, the British monarchy generates a fortune in tourist income.


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    #522
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    No we just used to do this for the Pope.

    But he was elected. Sort of.

    In an 'Irish Senate' sort of way.


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    #523
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    Nodin wrote: »
    In an 'Irish Senate' sort of way.

    Better than "Divine Right"

    Give me a break.


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    #524
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Camelot wrote: »
    Its a circular argument SirHenry, yes there are similarities between the Irish & the Aussies & the Yanks, but thats because we (England, Scotland, Ireland & Wales) were the original white settlers ~ so why would'nt there be similarities!

    Thats is only true of Australia, Camelot. America had a far more represenative European population. The original English WASP settlers (Yankees) most definately felt they were from a different Ethnic Group to the Irish.

    Yes indeed, there are cultural differences between Ireland & Britain & between various regions of the UK ~ there are many Monarchists in the Republic, and there are just as many Non Monarchists in many parts of Britain, but it doesnt mean that we are all of a different Ethnic group ~ does it?

    There are far more non-monarchists in Britain than Monarchists in Ireland.

    If you want to talk about ethnic groups, the English would have more in common with the peoples of Saxony and other parts of North Germany than with the Welsh or Scottish. Even less so with the Irish.
    The point is the Union of the peoples here was not a happy marriage of like minded cultures: rather it was brought about by the imperial domination of one very strong nation over the other three.

    Remember the English got on so well with the Scots they tried to change its name to " North Britain". The British Empire, was basically an English Empire.
    The Head of the British Empire is always the English Monarch.
    The fact that these divisions still exist today in Britain after 1500 years is proof of their reality and starkness.

    The divisions in Ireland are different and are based on religion. (nearly all Irish Unionists are protestant, the significance of this is huge). Supra-national loyalty among Irish people to Britain is not because they are British it is by and large because they are protestant.


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    #525
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Deedsie wrote: »
    The pope is elected.
    Maybe, but not by you or me or any of the people who live in my street in Ireland. Anyway I wish him well...he may have been in the Nazi party in his youth but that was the done thing then in his area in that era. Sure was 'nt both Hitler and Mussolini both Roman Catholics ?


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    #526
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    T runner wrote: »
    There are far more non-monarchists in Britain than Monarchists in Ireland.

    Apparently after Princess Diana's death the queue in Dublin to sign the book of condolence was just as long, or longer than many cities on the island next door, there has always been a fascination, liking, curiousity, for Royalty in Ireland.
    T runner wrote: »
    If you want to talk about ethnic groups, the English would have more in common with the peoples of Saxony and other parts of North Germany than with the Welsh or Scottish. Even less so with the Irish.

    Would you consider the 'Irish' to be the same Ethnic group as the Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish?
    T runner wrote: »
    The British Empire, was basically an English Empire.
    The Head of the British Empire is always the English Monarch.

    An English Empire :confused: As far as I am aware, the Irish were right in the mix when it came to Making & Running the British Empire, nowhere has it been said that the British Empire was an 'English Empire' indeed it has been said that 'The Irish Won the Empire' ~ The Scots administered it ~ and the English lost it ...............
    dunno what the Welsh did :)
    T runner wrote: »
    The divisions in Ireland are different and are based on religion. (nearly all Irish Unionists are protestant, the significance of this is huge). Supra-national loyalty among Irish people to Britain is not because they are British it is by and large because they are protestant.

    These are not Ethnic differences, rather cultural & regional differences between the peoples of the british isles.


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    #527
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    T runner wrote: »
    If you want to talk about ethnic groups, the English would have more in common with the peoples of Saxony and other parts of North Germany than with the Welsh or Scottish.
    So someone from Carlisle has more in common with someone from Rostock than they do with someone from Dumfries? Someone from Chester has more in common with someone from Bremen than they do with someone from Wrexham? You don't think that's a bit ridiculous?
    T runner wrote: »
    ...nearly all Irish Unionists are protestant...
    Not sure about that. Undoubtedly a lot of unionists are most likely protestant, but that doesn't mean they all are. Of course, that depends on what you mean by "nearly all".


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    #528
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Maybe, but not by you or me or any of the people who live in my street in Ireland. Anyway I wish him well...he may have been in the Nazi party in his youth but that was the done thing then in his area in that era. Sure was 'nt both Hitler and Mussolini both Roman Catholics ?

    The pope is appointed by a group of Cardinals i think. Id rather that than the Divine right of God selecting one person who is supposedly better than everyone else. All people should be seen as equal in this day and age. the leader of a nation should be elected by the people.

    Arent there members of the royal family going around dressed up as Nazi's? Embarrasing Britain if you ask me. Why are you mentioning Hitler and Mussolini in this thread? Dictators? Cromwell was a protestant, doubt many Irish voted him in?

    The UK takes pride in being one of the worlds first democracies, unless you were a Catholic Irish man of course.


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    #529
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Deedsie wrote: »
    The pope is appointed by a group of Cardinals i think.
    The same group and system who in the 20th century did not excommunicate Hitler or Mussolini ?
    Deedsie wrote: »
    Id rather that than the Divine right of God selecting one person who is supposedly better than everyone else.
    Nobody suggested the Queen or King of the UK, Spain, Denmark etc is supposedly better than everyone else. Is has been suggested by some though that the Pope is better than everyone else ?

    Deedsie wrote: »
    All people should be seen as equal in this day and age. the leader of a nation should be elected by the people.
    I agree entirely. The leader of the UK, Ireland, Spain and most western countries is democratically elected.


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    #530
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I agree entirely. The leader of the UK, Ireland, Spain and most western countries is democratically elected.

    The Head of State however....


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    #531
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Cliste wrote: »
    The Head of State however....
    I would not especially like to be head of state of the UK, Spain , Holland etc...it would be like living in a glasshouse on public exhibition.

    The heads of state of those countries do not bother me and I do not bother them. As a catholic I have seen many of my friends emigrate to or visit those countries over the years , and it does not bother them either. Live + let live. If the population of those countries wanted to vote the monarchy out, they would do so. The UK monarchy is very sucessful at attracting massive tourism revenue in to the UK. I remember when Charles + Di were getting married it would have been a perfect time to rob a bank here, as the streets , roads etc were deserted. Even when Di died books of condolences were opened around the country in many public offices, and were very well supported. I personally would not cross the road to see anyone, be it Mary McAleese or the Royal family of any country, be it UK , Spain, Denmark, Greece or wherever.


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    #532
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Is it? From where I’m sitting, Ireland is totally flooded with British culture; sport, TV, tabloid media, cinema, etc.
    The same could be said for just about any other “ethnic grouping” on the planet, Irish people included. Or perhaps you could explain why “being Irish” is different?
    So Irish people fall into that category then, don’t they? I mean, there’s no evidence of human activity on this island prior to about 10,000 years ago, so our ancestors must have migrated here form elsewhere.
    are we all on these islands the same culture ? well i get up in the morning and have a irish/english breakfast shop in the same shops as in the uk/ireland have a drink in the pub uk/ireland watch the same tv uk/ireland listen to the same pop music uk ireland -if you go out on the town it would be the same as glasgow cardiff manchester dublin cork or liverpool the same people same language the same scum as well hanging around--you will find in any of the bars english irish scotts and welsh ,and we all get on well together no one has ever been anything but nice to me in ireland ,and i would like to think its the same for the irish in the uk --that makes us the same culture


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    #533
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I would not especially like to be head of state of the UK, Spain , Holland etc...it would be like living in a glasshouse on public exhibition.

    I was just making the point that you were needlessly playing with words...:)


    To be honest a simple question was asked and now there are people arguing about the class system over the greater European area, and I mean I used to have great conversations as Gaeilge with the indian guy in our school. However I am very 'nationalist', such is life:D


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    #534
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Cliste wrote: »
    I was just making the point that you were needlessly playing with words

    No you were not, you were just trying to make points and I corrected you, as you were wrong.


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    #535
    slapbangwhallop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 96 ✭✭slapbangwhallop


    jimmmy wrote: »
    100 years ago we were united with Britain and had world class infrastructure eg trains, harbours ( the airports of their time ), universities, canals, public buildings etc. Many train journeys then took the same amount of time as they do now !. 100 years ago a letter got to London from Ireland quicker than it does now ! Colonisation was the done thing in Europe in centuries gone by - Belgium, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Holland etc were all at it, and Ireland on its own would have been at it if it was strong enough ( the same as eg Achill would be a republic now if it was strong enough - like if it had enough people + resources etc ). Did you know than 25% of the British administration in India was made up of Irish people ? We played a large part in Britains administration of 25% of the world. Ireland was not a colony, we were relatively speaking part of the first world at the time, the same as eg Scotland. The history of this island is interwoven with our neighbouring island, the same as the two islands of New Zealand are interconnected for example.

    yes I remember being told of the world class conditions that my great-grandfather lived in, the world class education they recieved and the world class job prospects they could look forward to! sheesh!


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    #536
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    jimmmy wrote: »
    No you were not, you were just trying to make points and I corrected you, as you were wrong.

    you said that:

    "The leader of the UK, Ireland, Spain and most western countries is democratically elected. "

    and I made the point that the Queen is not. (she isn't is she?)


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    #537
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    getz wrote: »
    are we all on these islands the same culture ? well i get up in the morning and have a irish/english breakfast shop in the same shops as in the uk/ireland have a drink in the pub uk/ireland watch the same tv uk/ireland listen to the same pop music uk ireland -if you go out on the town it would be the same as glasgow cardiff manchester dublin cork or liverpool the same people same language the same scum as well hanging around--you will find in any of the bars english irish scotts and welsh ,and we all get on well together no one has ever been anything but nice to me in ireland ,and i would like to think its the same for the irish in the uk --that makes us the same culture

    That might be what you do with your (healthy) lifestyle choice and opinion. But how can you say who did those things first. Was it not the Irish immigrants brought this culture to the UK? They are copying us. England is even Nationalist now for feck sake. The will have a tricolour in twenty years ill bet.

    Our cultures are similar, that is the globalised mono-cultural world we live in God help us all. (You could walk through any city in Britain or Ireland and think you were in south central LA) Does that make me American, cause some fool carries on like a hip hop singer?

    Most Counties in Irelands biggest sporting events are GAA. An expression of our difference to anywhere else in the world. RTÉ is pumped into nearly every house in Ireland and if you put an average Briton down watching our News and entertainment programmes he wouldnt have a clue what was going on, because he is British and we are Irish.

    The longest running programme on RTÉ is the Angelus. The BBC hardly covers Catholic programming? The vast majority of Irish people are Catholics, Britons are not. Antother Difference.

    You cant accuse the Irish people of being British because the world has become globalised. If thats the case we are all American, Man...


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    #538
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Cliste wrote: »
    you said that:

    "The leader of the UK, Ireland, Spain and most western countries is democratically elected. "

    and I made the point that the Queen is not. (she isn't is she?)

    The Queen of where ? Denmark ? Spain ? Oh, I know, you mean the queen of the UK, because of our natural ties in these islands ? As a catholic I have no problem with any Queen, more power to her whichever one you mean. They bring in tourism revenue. The leaders of the UK, Ireland, Spain and most western countries are democratically elected, because the leaders there have real power. The Queen has no real power in the everyday running of the governments there + does not interfere.


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    #539
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    jimmmy wrote: »
    The Queen of where ? Denmark ? Spain ? Oh, I know, you mean the queen of the UK, because of our natural ties in these islands ? As a catholic I have no problem with any Queen, more power to her whichever one you mean. They bring in tourism revenue. The leaders of the UK, Ireland, Spain and most western countries are democratically elected, because the leaders there have real power. The Queen has no real power in the everyday running of the governments there + does not interfere.

    But you answered this:

    "All people should be seen as equal in this day and age. the leader of a nation should be elected by the people. "

    Of course we've ties with Great Britain, they feckin owned us, and look at the thread, what queen do you really think I'm talking about :rolleyes:

    Anyway what exactly are we discussing here?


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    #540
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Camelot wrote: »
    Apparently after Princess Diana's death the queue in Dublin to sign the book of condolence was just as long, or longer than many cities on the island next door, there has always been a fascination, liking, curiousity, for Royalty in Ireland.
    That hardly makes them monarchists does it? It means they liked Princess Diana.
    Would you consider the 'Irish' to be the same Ethnic group as the Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish?

    More similar ethnically to the Scots who are a mixture of "picts, Irish (Scots), Britons (same as welsh), Vikings, and Anglo Saxons).

    Ethnically, Northern Irish are Irish, although may have more Scot in them in the North East but nothing out of line with Irish regional variations.


    An English Empire :confused: As far as I am aware, the Irish were right in the mix when it came to Making & Running the British Empire, nowhere has it been said that the British Empire was an 'English Empire' indeed it has been said that the Irish won the Empire ~ The Scots administered it ~ and the English lost it ...............
    dunno what the Welsh did :)

    I dont know about that saying, maybe it refers to Nelson, was he Irish?

    The fact is the British Empire started with the conquest of Wales, Scotland and Ireland (by right of conquest). None of these countries were willing participants in the country they were forced into by England never mind the Empire that resulted in subsequent English colonialism. England was more or less always the colonial power in Britain and Ireland after the anglo-saxon advance.
    These are not Ethnic differences, rather cultural & regional differences between the peoples of the british isles.

    The British Isles is a geographical term coined by some Roman mapmaker.
    It is not the name of a country: rather an Island group consisting of 2 major islands and several small ones (Even though Ireland (The third largest Island in Europe) is an Island a lot, lot longer than Britain).
    The group contains 4 nationalities Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh.
    The people in Britain who would describe their nationality as Scottish, English and Welsh would outnumber the people claiming to be British.
    Over 80% of people living in Ireland would describe themselves as Irish. Most of the 20% who describe themselves as British are nearly all protestants in the far North East of the country.
    They may hold allegiance to Britain but, and I dont mean any disrespect here, they are not from Britain and therefore not British.
    Even the pro-union historian ATQ Stewart admits as much.


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    #541
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So someone from Carlisle has more in common with someone from Rostock than they do with someone from Dumfries? Someone from Chester has more in common with someone from Bremen than they do with someone from Wrexham? You don't think that's a bit ridiculous?

    I dont think its ridiculous as I was answering a point about ethnic groups.
    Not sure about that. Undoubtedly a lot of unionists are most likely protestant, but that doesn't mean they all are. Of course, that depends on what you mean by "nearly all".

    I would guess 95%. Enough to demonstrate that the divisions are religious.


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