Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

djpbarry

partyguinness wrote: »

Being called "British" does not not mean anything.

It may mean less to some than to others, but it's rather dismissive (and even disrespectful) to suggest that it means nothing. For example, descendants of immigrants are likely to refer to themselves as British-Pakistani, British-Indian, British-Bangladeshi, or whatever, possibly because describing oneself as English is (sadly) associated with extremist groups such as the National Front.

partyguinness wrote: »

The majority (albeit decreasing) wish to remain under Bristish jurisdiction.

What evidence is there that the number of people in Northern Ireland who wish to remain under British jurisdiction is decreasing?

guinnessdrinker

I think you are right Oscar. According to article 3.1 both jurisdictions will vote. But what about Great Britian, are they required to have a similar referendum?

oscarBravo

I don't know. I guess that's a matter for HMG to figure out.

Deedsie

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Not going to happen in your lifetime. The slight majority are British at present & you'd need about 80% seeing themselves as fully Irish to win a referendum. Even then there'd be a threat of violence from Loyalists and that could be used to make the voters in ROI vote against it, amongst many other things.

I plan to live a long while yet. It is impossible to say without shadow of doubt that a united Ireland wont happen in our lifetime. A 51% nationalist majority with an ageing unionist poulation? Fermanagh and Tyrone are already majority nationalist counties. South Armagh, Derry City, West and south Belfast.

Peace on the entire island and Civil Rights for all for the first time ever.

A referendum is the only way we'll know the feeling on the ground though. Who'd be more afraid of a United Ireland referendum? Peter Robinson or Martin McGuinness?

I know its not the time for one now. With the recession and all. But after the next election if Sinn Fein and the SDLP make any inroads into the unionist majority perhaps a debate on the feasibility should be held.

partyguinness

djpbarry wrote: »

It may mean less to some than to others, but it's rather dismissive (and even disrespectful) to suggest that it means nothing. For example, descendants of immigrants are likely to refer to themselves as British-Pakistani, British-Indian, British-Bangladeshi, or whatever, possibly because describing oneself as English is (sadly) associated with extremist groups such as the National Front.
What evidence is there that the number of people in Northern Ireland who wish to remain under British jurisdiction is decreasing?

Yes it is dismissive and disrespectful. While not wishing to personalise the issue, I find "British" conduct and occupation in our history as disrespectful and dismissive.

I recall two polls conducted by an Irish sunday paper a few years back. I dont have any links for you as it was the hard copy I read. This is very distinct from the increasing Catholic population as some people preceive that all Catholics want a united Ireland which of course is nonsense.

It is generally preceived as being too politically sensitive to conduct these polls on a regular basis. No real benefit.

All it does is irritate an already sensitive Unionist population and provide ammunition for armchair republicans re unification.

partyguinness

I know its not the time for one now. With the recession and all

I think you have pointed out exactly what it will all come down to..economics i.e. money.

The North is too expensive...and lets be honest who wants to deal with the 12th July brigade every year? or even the forefathers of the KKK that is the Orange Lodge.

OhNoYouDidn't

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

I think you are right Oscar. According to article 3.1 both jurisdictions will vote. But what about Great Britian, are they required to have a similar referendum?

No, was there not some guff about no selfish interests and its for the people of Ireland, north and south, to decide?

OhNoYouDidn't

partyguinness wrote: »

I know its not the time for one now. With the recession and all

I think you have pointed out exactly what it will all come down to..economics i.e. money.

The North is too expensive...and lets be honest who wants to deal with the 12th July brigade every year? or even the forefathers of the KKK that is the Orange Lodge.

I think the overwhelming majority of the 26 counties when asked would opt for unification. The way the economies are at the moment, they would be boosting us.

jimmmy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think the overwhelming majority of the 26 counties when asked would opt for unification.

Perhaps you mean unified with our neighbouring island again, just like the two islands of New Zealand are unified. It would be great to have cars half the price they are here, and shopping half the cost too. Oh, not to mention the unsustainable position of the 26 county budget beficit being over 20 billion this year.

partyguinness

jimmmy wrote: »

Perhaps you mean unified with our neighbouring island again, just like the two islands of New Zealand are unified. It would be great to have cars half the price they are here, and shopping half the cost too. Oh, not to mention the unsustainable position of the 26 county budget beficit being over 20 billion this year.

What about they unify with us? we can unite with our Celtic brothers to kick out the Saxon foe?:P

OhNoYouDidn't

jimmmy wrote: »

Perhaps you mean unified with our neighbouring island again, just like the two islands of New Zealand are unified. It would be great to have cars half the price they are here, and shopping half the cost too. Oh, not to mention the unsustainable position of the 26 county budget beficit being over 20 billion this year.

No, if I meant that I would have said it.

If you had a referendum in the 26 tomorrow asking would people want a united ireland 90% who vote would say yes. there are a few partionist nutters in the Harris / Cruiser mode and some would vote no on mealy mouthed short term financial grounds, but it would be overwhelming.

Deedsie

jimmmy wrote: »

Perhaps you mean unified with our neighbouring island again, just like the two islands of New Zealand are unified. It would be great to have cars half the price they are here, and shopping half the cost too. Oh, not to mention the unsustainable position of the 26 county budget beficit being over 20 billion this year.

There is more to life than economics and cheap perks. Irish people take pride in our Sovereignty. A very small minority would vote for unification with the UK. No point pretending they are not there.

We are a nationalist country in the most part. And our august destiny is not aligned with Britain.

LordSutch

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If you had a referendum in the 26 tomorrow asking would people want a united ireland 90% who vote would say yes. there are a few partionist nutters in the Harris / Cruiser mode and some would vote no on mealy mouthed short term financial grounds, but it would be overwhelming.

Harris / Cruiser (deceased) & me )

Anyway, it wouldnt be a Southern vote that would decide .........................

jimmmy

partyguinness wrote: »

What about they unify with us?

Same thing. Just as the Japanese islands are unified, the New Zealand islands are unified.....

Imagine part of those island groups goung independent, having its own embassies etc ...it would have to get handouts and borrowings like the Rep. of Ireland always has.

If the border was even rolled south 100 miles, just think how much easier and cheaper it would be for so many households having to travel to shop in N. Ireland at the moment. No wonder most people in N. I. want to stay part of the UK.

partyguinness

jimmmy wrote: »

Same thing. Just as the Japanese islands are unified, the New Zealand islands are unified.....

Imagine part of those island groups goung independent, having its own embassies etc ...it would have to get handouts and borrowings like the Rep. of Ireland always has.

If the border was even rolled south 100 miles, just think how much easier and cheaper it would be for so many households having to travel to shop in N. Ireland at the moment. No wonder most people in N. I. want to stay part of the UK.

Sure while we're at it..why dont we just get rid of borders altogether.

Declare national identity dead and in the past.

Lets all join hands, sing songs and be friends:p

Deedsie

jimmmy wrote: »

Same thing. Just as the Japanese islands are unified, the New Zealand islands are unified.....

Imagine part of those island groups goung independent, having its own embassies etc ...it would have to get handouts and borrowings like the Rep. of Ireland always has.

If the border was even rolled south 100 miles, just think how much easier and cheaper it would be for so many households having to travel to shop in N. Ireland at the moment. No wonder most people in N. I. want to stay part of the UK.

Ya Ireland and Britains past is similar to that of the Islands of New Zealand an Japan. Give us all a break. Ireland is a free and independent country, 90 years at this stage you may make peace with that. As our near neighbours and equals we have a cordial relationship with Britain.

But thats where it ends.

jimmmy

Our ties were always more than cordial. Everyone has relations in the UK mainland. Go back a century and 25% of the British administration in India, for example, came from Ireland.

OhNoYouDidn't

jimmmy wrote: »

Our ties were always more than cordial. Everyone has relations in the UK mainland. Go back a century and 25% of the British administration in India, for example, came from Ireland.

More than cordial? :eek:

Are you for real? Did I dream Cromwell, famine, uprisings, reprisals, the IRA, the tans, the 6 county statelets opression, bombs, Bloody Sunday, Warrington etc?

SirHenryGrattan

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

I thought you only needed 50% + 1 to win a referendum. And maybe I'm wrong but under the Good Friday conditions if the majority of the people in the North vote to join the Republic, then thats all that is required for a United Ireland and there will be no vote in the Republic as the government has already signed up to the agreement. Any clarification on this?

NI can secede from the UK by referendum irrespective of majority opinion at Westminster. It could then choose to stay independent or merge with the ROI. The demographic growth rates of the two main ethnic groups in NI are similar so there is unlkely to be a change in majority sentiment unless there is a wave of inward migration from the ROI that would tip the balance because those migrants are more likely to vote Nationlist than Unionist.

On the other had the Power Sharing arrangements implemented under the GFA prevent the Unionist majority from changing the terms of the Northern Ireland Act so that secession is contingent on Royal Assent requiring a majority at Westminster. This is the case with Scotland and Wales.

luckyfrank

A question id like to ask is would it be possible to persuade our unionist brothers and sisters to accept unification earlier than a 50+1 majority ???

We all know since the partition of the state the catholic population has slowly but steadly risen in the 6 counties if this trends continues even if its slowing it would indicate a united ireland is inevitable

This might not happen in our lifetime but it will happen so would it not be better for the unionist population to negotiate

In the interests of keeping all inhabitants of the island maybe the whole island could have closer ties with britain aswell as allowing anyone in the 6 counties to have duel citizenship just as they do now........ Maybe we could have some form of official link between the two countries about our 'special relationship'

Im willing to sacrifice quite alot in the interests of keeping everyone happy

SirHenryGrattan

jimmmy wrote: »

Our ties were always more than cordial. Everyone has relations in the UK mainland. Go back a century and 25% of the British administration in India, for example, came from Ireland.

There is an accepted documented history of discrimination against the Irish in Britain. Google on Hansard and Dail debates. How do you define cordial?

You point about the Indian Civil service is true. The question is why? Clue: The Scottish made up another 25%.

djpbarry

partyguinness wrote: »

... I find "British" conduct and occupation in our history as disrespectful and dismissive.

:rolleyes:

partyguinness wrote: »

I recall two polls conducted by an Irish sunday paper a few years back. I dont have any links for you as it was the hard copy I read.

Sorry – you’ll have to do better than that.

partyguinness wrote: »

It is generally preceived as being too politically sensitive to conduct these polls on a regular basis.

ARK seem to disagree. They have been surveying political attitudes in Northern Ireland for some time now. From 2002 – 2007, support for a United Ireland was within the range 22 – 30%:

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/results

partyguinness wrote: »

Declare national identity dead and in the past.

Now you’re starting to talk some sense.

djpbarry

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think the overwhelming majority of the 26 counties when asked would opt for unification.

If there was no cost involved, probably, yes. But if you tell everyone how much of their pay packet will go towards this unification project, I think you might get a slightly different response.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Did I dream Cromwell, famine, uprisings, reprisals, the IRA, the tans, the 6 county statelets opression, bombs, Bloody Sunday, Warrington etc?

Yes; unless you’re several centuries old?

djpbarry

Deedsie wrote: »

Irish people take pride in our Sovereignty.
...
We are a nationalist country in the most part.

Yes, of course. That’s why unification is such a high priority for so many people on the island and why Sinn Féin enjoy so much support in the Republic... oh, wait now...

luckyfrank wrote: »

We all know since the partition of the state the catholic population has slowly but steadly risen in the 6 counties if this trends continues even if its slowing it would indicate a united ireland is inevitable

Is every catholic in favour of a united Ireland?

OhNoYouDidn't

djpbarry wrote: »

If there was no cost involved, probably, yes. But if you tell everyone how much of their pay packet will go towards this unification project, I think you might get a slightly different response.

Has there ever been a costing? I don't think it would cost as much as people seem to claim, and besides, there would be a host of funding initiatives in place from the EU.

djpbarry wrote: »

Yes; unless you’re several centuries old?

My point is that 'cordial' is not a word traditionally associated with Anglo Irish relations.

K-9

Deedsie wrote: »

I plan to live a long while yet. It is impossible to say without shadow of doubt that a united Ireland wont happen in our lifetime. A 51% nationalist majority with an ageing unionist poulation? Fermanagh and Tyrone are already majority nationalist counties. South Armagh, Derry City, West and south Belfast.

Peace on the entire island and Civil Rights for all for the first time ever.

A referendum is the only way we'll know the feeling on the ground though. Who'd be more afraid of a United Ireland referendum? Peter Robinson or Martin McGuinness?

I know its not the time for one now. With the recession and all. But after the next election if Sinn Fein and the SDLP make any inroads into the unionist majority perhaps a debate on the feasibility should be held.

4 counties actually have a Catholic majority now.

All the above is interesting but ignores what the DUP and Loyalists would think.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think the overwhelming majority of the 26 counties when asked would opt for unification. The way the economies are at the moment, they would be boosting us.

No, NI is heavily reliant on Govt. funding.

LordSutch

Seanies32 wrote: »

4 counties actually have a Catholic majority now.

Two to go and you're there then ............... )

But I suspect the demographics are a little more complicated than that.

T runner

Camelot wrote: »

Two to go and you're there then ............... )

But I suspect the demographics are a little more complicated than that.

Similar simple demographics to what the British and Unionist used when partitioning the country.

T runner

djpbarry wrote: »

But if they claimed to be UK-ish, that would be ok?

The problem here is that you seem to think that nationality is a definitive concept, when it is anything but. I used the example of my wife as she is a relatively extreme case, but there are plenty of people who were born in a different country to one or more of their parents (or grandparents). For them, nationality is a little less clearly defined.

But claiming to be UK-ish would be perfectly valid, no?

Or British and Northern Irish? It would allow people from NI to be Irish and part of the UK. At the moment this is not possible. Only British people are officially from the UK.

Does that apply to Northern Ireland too?

There is a triple lock in NI I believe.

You think the only reason that Northern Ireland is still part of the UK is so some people can refer to themselves as British? You don’t think that’s just a touch simplistic?

Thats the point, they want to remain part of the UK because they want to be part of a protestant majority, not because they think they are British.
It is a religious problem. Remove the religious problem you remove the need for partition.

T runner

djpbarry wrote: »

Yes; unless you’re several centuries old?

Same response is valid for people who claim to be "British" while living in Ireland.