Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

A Red C poll carried out in 2006 found that 22% of the population of the 26 counties believed that uniting Ireland should be the first priority of the government.

And I would imagine that, given the current economic situation, that figure has declined somewhat.

OhNoYouDidn't

djpbarry wrote: »

And I would imagine that, given the current economic situation, that figure has declined somewhat.

I would doubt it. If 22% of the 26 counties believe the first priority of the state is reunification and not things like health or the economy, they tend to stick to that principled stance.

partyguinness

Camelot wrote: »

And yet, you went to all the trouble of making a silly point :rolleyes:



Yeah right, As Pat Kenny discovered recently on the Radio to his shame, when he had a 'cross purpose' conversation with a caller from New Zealand, which is also known as "these islands" :rolleyes:



I can assure you, I have no intention of abandoning a perfectly good term which refers to the islands geographically associated with the North West Coast of Britany, especially in this historical/geographical context!/quote]

LOL...since when does making a point equate to being upset? Plus you wrote that you intentionally did not use capitals thereby validating my very "silly" point:rolleyes:

Not quiet sure what your point in relation to Pat Kenny is. New Zealand is a sovereign country comprising of 2 islands. What exactly is your point?

Continue to use the phrase by all means. That is your prerogative. I think it makes you sound "silly":D

OhNoYouDidn't

djpbarry wrote: »

I am quite aware of that, but it’s hardly a priority at the moment, is it (except for Sinn Féin)?

But the fact that it is the only common policy of every political party in the 26, from SWP to Christian Solidarity, let alone all the parties of the Dail, should really indicate to you that opinion on the matter is as uniform as you can get in Ireland.

The overwhelming majority of the 26 counties would favour unity. Why argue it?

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of the 26 counties would favour unity. Why argue it?

But it would be down the list of priorities.

partyguinness

djpbarry wrote: »

To say they came directly from the Basque region is fanciful.
The available archaeological evidence suggests otherwise. There is evidence of human activity in Britain going back about 700,000 years, but there are no traces of human activity in Ireland prior to about 10,000 years ago.
I’d be very interested in seeing this “scientific fact and analysis”.

Yes there is no trace of human activity (at the moment) in Ireland prior to 10,000 years ago which was when the Ice Age ended. The scientific research at the moment suggests that people came to Ireland after this time from Southern Europe (be it via boats directly or through what is now Britain). Sure it is probable that natives from Britain followed suit but thats not what the research shows at this moment in time. The Ice Age/ice sheet did not cover Spain/Italy.

The DNA of the oldest human remains found in Ireland have links with the Basque region..of course all European groups are a mish mash of different races. Ireland would have Norman, Norse, Celtic genes amongst its pool...likewise Britain has German/Nordic, Roman, Norman, Celtic genes,

Well finding the "scientific fact and analysis" can be your pet project for the next few weeks..:rolleyes:

OhNoYouDidn't

Seanies32 wrote: »

But it would be down the list of priorities.

22% want it as a first priority of the government. I would say that only improving the health service got a higher priority.

The Taoiseach who gets to unveil a tricolour over Belfast's city hall goes down in world history.

LordSutch

partyguinness wrote: »

LOL...since when does making a point equate to being upset? Plus you wrote that you intentionally did not use capitals thereby validating my very "silly" point:rolleyes:

When using the term british isles I deliberately used small caps so as not to upset Ultra Sensitive Nationalist types (like yourself).

partyguinness wrote: »

Not quiet sure what your point in relation to Pat Kenny is. New Zealand is a sovereign country comprising of 2 islands. What exactly is your point?

The term "These Islands" is used in at least six other island gatherings around the Globe, the term is very imprecise & vague, Kenny was talking about the ecology in "these islands" & the New zealander was also talking about the ecology in "these islands", problem was the chap from the southern hemisphere was talking about "those islands", it wasnt until midway through the exchange that the penny dropped )

partyguinness wrote: »

Continue to use the phrase by all means. That is your prerogative. I think it makes you sound "silly":D

I use the term infrequently, but in this instance I thought it was very appropriate in the context of human migration 10.000 years ago.

thehighground

I came across this post on a rugby forum about flags/anthems etc. recently. Thought it was interesting (coming from the younger generation who didn't live through the troubles).

As a (admittedly middle-class, liberal) Protestant, I don't feel unhappy with the tricolour RoI flag being used to represent me, as it represents enduring peace between the two traditions on this island. But I didn't live through the Troubles. In many ways when I travel down to Dublin and hum along with both anthems and see the Tricolour flag and take my seat in Croke Park, I actually feel included in a mainstream Irish identity where my own heritage is not marginalised. It's a nice feeling. Am I strange?

There were other posts from the younger generation who made points that where they were from, many of the older generation, although interested in rugby, would not travel to Croke Park and he wouldn't talk too much about travelling there to watch Ireland.

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

22% want it as a first priority of the government. I would say that only improving the health service got a higher priority.

The Taoiseach who gets to unveil a tricolour over Belfast's city hall goes down in world history.

YEP, The first assassinated Taoiseach.

thehighground

Camelot wrote: »

When using the term british isles I deliberately used small caps so as not to upset Ultra Sensitive Nationalist types (like yourself).

North Atlantic Isles (doesn't seem to offend anyone and geographically precise )

or IONA (Islands of the North Atlantic).

partyguinness

Making a point that some people find the term "british isles" offensive is exactly that..a point. How exactly does that make me an "Ultra Sensitive Nationalist". I never said I found the term offensive. Now you are being presumptuous..tut tut.

partyguinness

thehighground wrote: »

I came across this post on a rugby forum about flags/anthems etc. recently. Thought it was interesting (coming from the younger generation who didn't live through the troubles).



There were other posts from the younger generation who made points that where they were from, many of the older generation, although interested in rugby, would not travel to Croke Park and he wouldn't talk too much about travelling there to watch Ireland.

There is a stong case to make that Orangism or the Unionist "culture" would be better served in a united Ireland.

Ironically and perhaps sadly, the British establishment they so dearly cling onto couldnt care less about them.

We would go so out of our way to make them feel welcome etc that it may flourish with the burden of the siege mentality/isolation gone.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

I presume by “proven in this thread already to be quite wrong”, you mean that it has been dismissed by yourself and others because the results contradict your own beliefs?

No. A few pages back in this thread it was explained to you the valid reasons why that poll was not correct but you choose to ignore.

djpbarry wrote: »

I am quite aware of that, but it’s hardly a priority at the moment, is it (except for Sinn Féin)?

Then why did you attempt to link Sinn Fein solely to question of unity?

Yes, of course. That’s why unification is such a high priority for so many people on the island and why Sinn Féin enjoy so much support in the Republic

That is insincere. You had quietly left out most of Dail Eireann who support re-unification.

Do you honestly believe that it is?

Why ask a question when answering a question?

I answered your question:

me wrote:

Hint, we do not know what priority it is.

O'Morris supplied a RED C poll afterwards with a 77% figure which you did not so your assumption was just an assumption without backup. That 77% would tally with all the Dail political parties who agree.

I'd believe that poll more than your silly one as we live in a normal democratic state without the threat of violence, intimidation and civil war type situation, unlike your poll where its impossible to gauge political opinion other than through the ballot box where SF & SDLP want unity with ROI.

Hadleigh Ugly Tiger wrote:

Only idiots would take offence to that term in fairness. Those who would are best left putting on a celtic jersey.....

I am not an idiot and don't have a Celtic jersey, thank you.
Every political party in the Dail disagrees with you including a Minister Ahern from Louth who dismissed that term publicly.
Why is this topic being discussed on this thread, this has been debated to death before on countless threads.

LordSutch

partyguinness wrote: »

Making a point that some people find the term "british isles" offensive is exactly that..a point. How exactly does that make me an "Ultra Sensitive Nationalist".

But your sensitivities rose to the surface in Post#675, hence this silly ding-dong )

P.S. You might also want to make repairs to Post#694

Getting back on Topic, from a Southern point of view I 'might' see the day when the island of Ireland is united, not in the irish Republican mould (which has long since evaporated), but possibly in a new East/ West/ North South dispensation, where the four regions of the UK + ROI + the Isle of Man + Channel islands all have new interactive understandings and New Economic/Political relationships with each other.

Hope thats not too radical?

partyguinness

Camelot wrote: »

But your sensitivities rose to the surface in Post#675, hence this silly dong-dong )

P.S. You might also want to make repairs to Post#694

Getting back on Topic, from a Southern point of view I 'might' see the day when the island of Ireland is united, not in the irish Republican mould (which has long since evaporated), but possibly in a new East/ West/ North South dispensation, where the four regions of the UK + ROI + the Isle of Man + Channel islands all have new interactive understandings and New Economic/Political relationships with each other.

Hope thats not too radical?

I think we may different definitions of the word "offensive". It doesnt offend me as such but it is irirtating and laughable.

But anyway...in relation to your proposals, I think that any new co-operation will come within the structure of the EU when Britain stops sulking and embraces the concept of European integration and co-operation in its entirety.

jimmmy

partyguinness wrote: »

. It doesnt offend me as such but it is irirtating and laughable..

Its a geographical term. Learn your geography. The Hawaiian islands are the Hawaiian islands, the Azores are the Azores. the Canaries are the Canaries, Malta + Gozo are the Maltese islands, these (inc I of Man and Channel Islands and Ireland ) are the British isles. Not as laughable as " Islands of the north Atlantic" lol lol. The Hawaiian islands are not the islands of the mid-pacific.

partyguinness wrote: »

.
But anyway...in relation to your proposals, I think that any new co-operation will come within the structure of the EU when Britain stops sulking and embraces the concept of European integration and co-operation in its entirety.

lol Britain has been the second biggest contributer to the EC over the years. Nobody can embrace something more than by digging deep in their pocket for it ....but some of the people who have got a lot of this money have obviously squandered it ...so I do not blame Britain for being sceptical of Europe now

partyguinness

jimmmy wrote: »

Its a geographical term. Learn your geography. The Hawaiian islands are the Hawaiian islands, the Azores are the Azores. the Canaries are the Canaries, Malta + Gozo are the Maltese islands, these (inc I of Man and Channel Islands and Ireland ) are the British isles. Not as laughable as " Islands of the north Atlantic" lol lol. The Hawaiian islands are not the islands of the mid-pacific.



lol Britain has been the second biggest contributer to the EC over the years. Nobody can embrace something more than by digging deep in their pocket for it ....but some of the people who have got a lot of this money have obviously squandered it ...so I do not blame Britain for being sceptical of Europe now

They are called the Hawaiian Islands because they form the US state of Hawaii..Mate this is not Britain and I dont live in Britain. so calling it the "British Isles" is incorrect and perhaps it is your geography that needs updating..:rolleyes:

But enough of that.

Please read my post in full...nobody denies that Britain makes their contribution but Britain has always been resisted Europe in its totality. In particularly with the Euro. Britain was more interested in alligning itself with the US...look where that went?? Misguided nationalism for the sake of it.

You should read the debate between Germany and Britain at the moment re banking crisis.

I believe you are confusing EU structural funds with easy credit...The German Chancellor (the most important in Europe) is livid with the British for getting themselves into such a mess with their finances..and Britain now wants the rest of Europe to bail them out. Britain (and Ireland) have gone on a 10 year spending spree, spending German money while laughing at Germany for being "old Europe".."Cool Britannia" was the Blairite mantra I believe...so after spening 10 laughing at German/European cautiousness..Britain is back with its tail between its legs asking Europe to bail it out..how ironic..:rolleyes: Britain is certainly in no position to point fingers re squandered money..it fact it is the leader of the pack.

djpbarry

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If 22% of the 26 counties believe the first priority of the state is reunification and not things like health or the economy...

...they’re a bit daft, quite frankly.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But the fact that it is the only common policy of every political party in the 26, from SWP to Christian Solidarity, let alone all the parties of the Dail, should really indicate to you that opinion on the matter is as uniform as you can get in Ireland.

I’m not sure if it’s a common policy of EVERY party, but anyway.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of the 26 counties would favour unity. Why argue it?

The majority favour it, in principle. Do the majority consider it a priority? Not on the available evidence, no. If they did, I imagine Sinn Féin would have a whole load more support, seeing as how unification is pretty much their one and only policy (and opposing the EU, of course).

djpbarry

partyguinness wrote: »

The scientific research at the moment suggests that people came to Ireland after this time from Southern Europe (be it via boats directly or through what is now Britain).

Yes, through Britain. After a brief stop-over of approximately 690,000 years.

partyguinness wrote: »

Well finding the "scientific fact and analysis" can be your pet project for the next few weeks..:rolleyes:

It’s up to you to back up your own arguments – the fact that you have not suggests to me that you can’t.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

No. A few pages back in this thread it was explained to you the valid reasons why that poll was not correct but you choose to ignore.

Ah, I presume you are referring to the claim that support for the nationalist parties has been increasing, based on election results? I pointed out that this was not the case, at which point you claimed that this was because election results have been distorted due to persons being removed from the electoral register. Put simply, there is no evidence, that I have seen, which shows that support for a united Ireland is growing in Northern Ireland (which is what the original point was).

gurramok wrote: »

Then why did you attempt to link Sinn Fein solely to question of unity?

If unification is a top priority for someone, I don’t think it’s stretching it to suggest that they will look to a political party who shares the same high priority.

gurramok wrote: »

You had quietly left out most of Dail Eireann who support re-unification.

I am not denying that most political parties in this country would support a united Ireland.

gurramok wrote: »

O'Morris supplied a RED C poll afterwards with a 77% figure which you did not so your assumption was just an assumption without backup.

The 77% figure refers to a majority who believed the government should “make an effort” to end partition. The 22% figure refers to those who believe that unification should be “first priority”. It’s all about priorities.

gurramok wrote: »

I'd believe that poll more than your silly one as...

...it presents a result which is consistent with your beliefs?

T runner

djpbarry wrote: »

...they’re a bit daft, quite frankly.
I’m not sure if it’s a common policy of EVERY party, but anyway.
The majority favour it, in principle. Do the majority consider it a priority? Not on the available evidence, no. If they did, I imagine Sinn Féin would have a whole load more support, seeing as how unification is pretty much their one and only policy (and opposing the EU, of course).

Most people are in favour of a United Ireland. It is not a pressing priority because we are independent and partition has worked better in ROI than in North.

djpbarry wrote: »

Yes, through Britain. After a brief stop-over of approximately 690,000 years.
It’s up to you to back up your own arguments – the fact that you have not suggests to me that you can’t.

Em, Britain wasnt an Island until relatively recently. (The English Channel is a lot shallower than the Irish sea, we have far less mammals than Britain). The early settlers came from boat from Iberia. We all have to come from somewhere, The English are Germanic for example not like the indiginous peoples of Britain and Ireland.

djpbarry wrote: »

I have no idea what you’re talking about here. People from Northern Ireland are already entitled to call themselves Irish whilst living in the UK........

but NOT by their British passport they are not. All people holding a Brit passport are officially called British even those who are Irish.

What about Irish people from Northern Ireland? Are they not “officially from the UK”?

Sgain not according to their "British passport". The irish identity is not tolerated on the British passport and until very recently was not tolerated in any part of the UK even that part which is in Ireland.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe people would rather be governed from Westminster than from Dublin? Maybe they think the British government is doing a better job than the Irish government would?

How much does Britain pump into NI every year? If we were part of the UK they would be pumping 70 billion into us every year, (leaving us to starve isnt an option any more)

You dont seem to understand how independence works and how it has benefitted the 26 counties of Rep of Ireland. We will NEVER go back to occupation again.
Similarly, people often translate the amount of money pumped int NI as proof that it could not be subsumed into a Unified country.
NI is run like a dependency, like a colony thus the high cost. There would be a very different dynamic if it was part of an independent Ireland indeed it would be one of the wealthiest and most productive regions. (Plenty of money to be made for astute Northern Business people)

If this were true, then every catholic in Northern Ireland would support a united Ireland. Is this the case? I don’t think so.

No catholic supports the Union and no Protestant supports a United Ireland. Why do you keep ignoring this? Does it not suit you to address it?
This is proof It is a sectarian conflict not a national one. If you cant refute this point then why not accept it?

Is Virginia under the jurisdiction of the British government?

I dont get your point. Half of Europe and Asia was under Russian control until the 90s. were they all Russian? I think not. To be Russian you must come from Russia. To be British you must come from Britain.

(Just so the point doesnt slip by, Virginians are actually descended from lowland and Ulster Scots. They are in Virginia less lenght than the Presbytarians are here but they dont claim to be "British" by virtue of where their abcestors came from many centuries before)

T runner

[

B]Getting back on Topic[/B], from a Southern point of view I 'might' see the day when the island of Ireland is united, not in the irish Republican mould (which has long since evaporated), but possibly in a new East/ West/ North South dispensation, where the four regions of the UK + ROI + the Isle of Man + Channel islands all have new interactive understandings and New Economic/Political relationships with each other.
Hope thats not too radical?

Yes we may have a new relationship but it will be the same as we have with the rest of our European partners. (are you suggesting we leave the EU).
Backward more than radical, no offense.
There will eventually be a United Ireland, it is the only sensible solution. (It is going that way and that is what most people in Britain and Ireland want afterall).

It doesnt make sense any more to have a border in a country the size of Ireland. Re-joining the Union is a pipe dream, nobody wants it (nearly nobody).

LordSutch

T runner wrote: »

No catholic supports the Union and no Protestant supports a United Ireland. Why do you keep ignoring this? Does it not suit you to address it?

As far as I was aware, 10-15% of the Roman Catholic population in NI buck the trend.


My figures may be slightly out, so maybe somebody with access to the facts can put the record straight.

Fratton Fred

T runner wrote: »

but NOT by their British passport they are not. All people holding a Brit passport are officially called British even those who are Irish.

Sgain not according to their "British passport". The irish identity is not tolerated on the British passport and until very recently was not tolerated in any part of the UK even that part which is in Ireland.

so I'm not allowed to call myslf English then, is that not tolerated in "Britain"?

OhNoYouDidn't

djpbarry wrote: »

...they’re a bit daft, quite frankly.

well thanks for patronising 1/4 Irish voters

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not sure if it’s a common policy of EVERY party, but anyway.

It is. Find one that doesnt have a policy towords reunification.

djpbarry wrote: »

The majority favour it, in principle. Do the majority consider it a priority?

You know 22% consider it the number one priority. Whether its a priority or not is entirely irrelevant.

djpbarry wrote: »

Not on the available evidence, no. If they did, I imagine Sinn Féin would have a whole load more support, seeing as how unification is pretty much their one and only policy (and opposing the EU, of course).

While I am far from a Shinner, you are coming across like a spoilt brat here. 2 policies only?

What are you actually trying to argue?

Grudaire

Camelot wrote: »

As far as I was aware, 10-15% of the Roman Catholic population in NI buck the trend.


My figures may be slightly out, so maybe somebody with access to the facts can put the record straight.

Something like that, there's a survey somewhere in the thread.

I mean there's arguments been thrown around about how long 'the british isles' (shudder) have been Islands.

I mean as soon as we see this being said:

Camelot wrote: »

Re-joining the Union is a pipe dream, nobody wants it (nearly nobody).

We all know that walls are being talked to

K-9

Cliste wrote: »

Something like that, there's a survey somewhere in the thread.

I mean there's arguments been thrown around about how long 'the british isles' (shudder) have been Islands.

I mean as soon as we see this being said:



We all know that walls are being talked to

From Wiki:

36% of the present-day population define themselves as Unionist, 24% as Nationalist and 40% define themselves as neither.[27] According to a 2007 opinion poll, 66% express long term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom (either directly ruled or with devolved government), while 23% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland.[28] This discrepancy can be explained by the overwhelming preference among Protestants to remain a part of the UK (89%), while Catholic preferences are spread across a number of solutions to the constitutional question including remaining a part of the UK (39%), a united Ireland (47%), Northern Ireland becoming an independent state (6%), and those who "don't know" (7%).[29] Official voting figures, which reflect views on the "national question" along with issues of candidate, geography, personal loyalty and historic voting patterns, show 54% of Northern Ireland voters vote for Pro-Unionist parties, 42% vote for Pro-Nationalist parties and 4% vote "other". Opinion polls consistently show that the election results are not necessarily an indication of the electorate's stance regarding the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_ireland#cite_note-26


Sources are at the bottom of the page.

thebigcheese22

T runner wrote: »

No catholic supports the Union and no Protestant supports a United Ireland

Ya because Wolfe Tone was born a Catholic, and Eoin Mc Neil was a devout Protestant...





Oh now wait... :rolleyes:

djpbarry

T runner wrote: »

The early settlers came from boat from Iberia. We all have to come from somewhere, The English are Germanic for example not like the indiginous peoples of Britain and Ireland.

Sorry, but the evidence suggests otherwise:

...the English still derive most of their current gene pool from the same early Basque source as the Irish, Welsh and Scots. These figures are at odds with the modern perceptions of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon ethnicity based on more recent invasions.

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7817

Whether you care to admit it or not, we’re all quite closely related, genetically at least.

T runner wrote: »

but NOT by their British passport they are not. All people holding a Brit passport are officially called British even those who are Irish.

I’d feel quite sorry for someone who feels they are defined by a piece of paper issued by a department of foreign affairs.

T runner wrote: »

The irish identity is not tolerated on the British passport...

Eh? It’s a piece of paper, incapable of intolerance.

T runner wrote: »

NI is run like a dependency, like a colony thus the high cost. There would be a very different dynamic if it was part of an independent Ireland indeed it would be one of the wealthiest and most productive regions. (Plenty of money to be made for astute Northern Business people)

So let’s see some figures then. Demonstrate the economic benefit of unification.

T runner wrote: »

No catholic supports the Union and no Protestant supports a United Ireland. This is proof It is a sectarian conflict not a national one. If you cant refute this point then why not accept it?

Refute what? Your fanciful claim? I don’t have to accept it because it’s utter nonsense. Feel free to prove otherwise.

T runner wrote: »

There will eventually be a United Ireland, it is the only sensible solution.

How so?

T runner wrote: »

It doesnt make sense any more to have a border in a country the size of Ireland.

Ah, well that’s me convinced :rolleyes:.