Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

jimmmy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think the point he is getting at is that while Republicans killed civilians, there was never an orchastrated campaign to do so.

I think the relatives of those killed on Bloody Friday, Le Mon, Warrington, Guildford, Birmingham, Enniskillen, Darkley church etc would disagree with you.

Serenity Now!

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think the point he is getting at is that while Republicans killed civilians, there was never an orchastrated campaign to do so. Loyalitsts lacked the military capability or political programme to fight a war with the IRA so for a large part of their campaign they restricted themselves to picking off easy targets of anyone they suspected of being a catholic, often torturing them brutally.

After all your pontificating about Gaza in another thread, you post this complete and utter blinkered bilge? lol

LordSutch

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think the point he is getting at is that while Republicans killed civilians, there was never an orchastrated campaign to do so. Loyalitsts lacked the military capability or political programme to fight a war with the IRA so for a large part of their campaign they restricted themselves to picking off easy targets of anyone they suspected of being a catholic, often torturing them brutally.

The Provisional IRA were the main source of death & destruction during the troubles, the provisional IRA murdered Men, they murdered Women & Children too, the Provisional IRA planted Bombs in Cars, they planted Bombs in Shopping Centres, in Pubs and Busses, the Provisional IRA shot Policemen in the head, they killed soldiers too! the Provisional IRA, knee capped (to blow off knee cap) dozens of young men who disagreed with them or stepped out of line, the Provisional made people 'disappear', the provisiaonal IRA were the 'main' protagonists of the Northern Ireland Troubles > and of that there can be NO Doubt!

Quite a few 'Civilians' in that list, i'm sure you will agree!

(Of course I am aware of the other combatants, but if people start making out that the IRA were somehow cleaner than anyone else, then I will object).

OhNoYouDidn't

jimmmy wrote: »

I think the relatives of those killed on Bloody Friday, Le Mon, Warrington, Guildford, Birmingham, Enniskillen, Darkley church etc would disagree with you.

I'm not condoning the actions, but possibly Le Mon aside, none of those operations were designed to kill civilians.

The majority of the loyalist terror attacks were.

Camelot wrote: »

The Provisional IRA were the main source of death & destruction during the troubles, the provisional IRA murdered Men, they murdered Women & Children too, the Provisional IRA planted Bombs in Cars, they planted Bombs in Shopping Centres, in Pubs and Busses, the Provisional IRA shot Policemen in the head, they killed soldiers too! the Provisional IRA, knee capped (to blow off knee cap) dozens of young men who disagreed with them or stepped out of line, the Provisional made people 'disappear', the provisiaonal IRA were the 'main' protagonists of the Northern Ireland Troubles > and of that there can be NO Doubt!

Quite a few 'Civilians' in that list, i'm sure you will agree!

(Of course I am aware of the other combatants, but if people start making out that the IRA were somehow cleaner than anyone else, then I will object).

See above. There was a fundamental difference in how Republicans viewed and fought the war to loyalists. This is not to say they were 'cleaner, but I never recall the IRA kidnapping and torturing anyone on the basis of their religion alone.

Yes there were atrocities. Yes civilians died. But the intent was not to do so, unlike the "romper rooms" torture chambers of the UVF.

jimmmy

Originally Posted by jimmmy
"I think the relatives of those killed on Bloody Friday, Le Mon, Warrington, Guildford, Birmingham, Enniskillen, Darkley church etc would disagree with you."

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm not condoning the actions, but possibly Le Mon aside, none of those operations were designed to kill civilians.

Ok take Darkley church for example - where republicans entered a small isolated Protestant church, not too far from the border, and sprayed machine gun fire around, killing more than a few innocent people. How could anyone then say Republicans did not carry out operations designed to kill civilians.

I am not defending the extremists on the other side either ( UVF, UDA etc ), but you cannot ignore the fact most of those killed in the troubles, and most of the bombings etc , was done by Republicans.

OhNoYouDidn't

jimmmy wrote: »

Ok take Darkley church for example - where republicans entered a small isolated Protestant church, not too far from the border, and sprayed machine gun fire around, killing more than a few innocent people. How could anyone then say Republicans did not carry out operations designed to kill civilians.

Who carried out the act? They were an INLA front who had not gotten sanction for the attack. Desipicble, but hardly reflective of Republicanism. The fact that it was the only reprisal is very telling.

jimmmy wrote: »

I am not defending the extremists on the other side either ( UVF, UDA etc ), but you cannot ignore the fact most of those killed in the troubles, and most of the bombings etc , was done by Republicans.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm simply stating Republicans did not engage in a sectarian soft target murder campaign like the loyalits did. That is not to defend them.

jaqian

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think the point he is getting at is that while Republicans killed civilians, there was never an orchastrated campaign to do so. Loyalitsts lacked the military capability or political programme to fight a war with the IRA so for a large part of their campaign they restricted themselves to picking off easy targets of anyone they suspected of being a catholic, often torturing them brutally.

I understand completely what he is saying: he is say they are nicer killers than the unionists. It doesn't matter who killed more only that they killed.

The IRA are terrorists and its time people stop glorifying them.

jimmmy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm simply stating Republicans did not engage in a sectarian soft target murder campaign like the loyalits did.

Wrong. PIRA/ INLA etc killed many more civilians than UDA / UVF etc. Also some would argue that part time / retired protestant members of the security forces ( and only sons ) in lonely farmhouses along the border were often singled out as well. As a catholic I condemn all IRA, UDA, INLA, UVF etc murders + bombings etc. I know more than a few catholics in N. I. who wish it to remain part of the UK....but obviously there are those who do not as well. I would say a previous posters statistics are not far off the mark ie

"If you look at the breakdown of Catholics:
4% - direct rule
35% - 'Home rule'
47% - United Ireland
6% Independant State
1% Some other answer
7% Just aren't sure"

oscarBravo

No more warnings: everyone read the thread title before posting again. Off-topic posts will be deleted and bannings will ensue.

LordSutch

The Original question in Post #1 was "Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland"? and this question has been definitively answered in Post 732 ~ 734 and surrounding Posts .......

Pandcoa

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm not condoning the actions, but possibly Le Mon aside, none of those operations were designed to kill civilians.

IF I can say just one thing, La mon was not intended to burn 12 people to death, it was another ecomonic target. A warning call had been called in but the leadership admitted it was inadequete. The bombers could not find a public phone box nearby, and by the time they did the bomb was only a few minutes away from detonation, workers were herding people to get out when it went off. There was simply not enough time for evacuation.

oscarBravo

Pandcoa wrote: »

IF I can say just one thing, La mon was not intended to burn 12 people to death, it was another ecomonic target. A warning call had been called in but the leadership admitted it was inadequete. The bombers could not find a public phone box nearby, and by the time they did the bomb was only a few minutes away from detonation, workers were herding people to get out when it went off. There was simply not enough time for evacuation.

Banned for a week for posting off-topic. I think my warning was adequate.

gurramok

K-9 wrote: »

From Wiki:

36% of the present-day population define themselves as Unionist, 24% as Nationalist and 40% define themselves as neither.[27] According to a 2007 opinion poll, 66% express long term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom (either directly ruled or with devolved government), while 23% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland.[28] This discrepancy can be explained by the overwhelming preference among Protestants to remain a part of the UK (89%), while Catholic preferences are spread across a number of solutions to the constitutional question including remaining a part of the UK (39%), a united Ireland (47%), Northern Ireland becoming an independent state (6%), and those who "don't know" (7%).[29] Official voting figures, which reflect views on the "national question" along with issues of candidate, geography, personal loyalty and historic voting patterns, show 54% of Northern Ireland voters vote for Pro-Unionist parties, 42% vote for Pro-Nationalist parties and 4% vote "other". Opinion polls consistently show that the election results are not necessarily an indication of the electorate's stance regarding the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_ireland#cite_note-26


Sources are at the bottom of the page.

Here we go, another poll/survey. The source is from 2 Universities similar to the silly poll that djpbarry is supporting.(http://www.ark.ac.uk/about/team.html)

To repeat, NI is not a normal civil society, it is divided along ethnic, cultural and religious lines. Nowhere on the planet has there been an mildly accurate poll/survey done to reflect public attitudes in a conflict zone other than elections, you cannot dispute that.
You never see any of the major political parties nor the British govt pimping any of the UNI polls as they know they are flawed.

And for those not familiar with NI politics, the Alliance party draws support from both Protestants and a fair few Catholics as their mandate is not Unionist but to keep the Union with Britain.(their support is 5%)

If some posters have come to the silly conclusion that the majority of Catholics do not support a United Ireland, then care to explain why the vast majority of Nationalists who we agree are overwhelmingly Catholic consistently vote for pro-United Ireland parties such as SDLP & SF in the real polls called elections?

Its either that or a huge chunk of Protestants are now voting for a United Ireland through their preferences for SDLP & SF.

jimmmy

gurramok wrote: »

Here we go, another poll/survey.

Yes, but on that subject they are always consistent. The poll is not on the subject of who is best to complain to about housing benefit, the pothole in the road locally or whatever.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

If some posters have come to the silly conclusion that the majority of Catholics do not support a United Ireland, then care to explain why the vast majority of Nationalists who we agree are overwhelmingly Catholic consistently vote for pro-United Ireland parties such as SDLP & SF in the real polls called elections?

Are these the same election results that you claimed were skewed by a clean-up of the register?

T runner

Camelot wrote: »

The Provisional IRA were the main source of death & destruction during the troubles, the provisional IRA murdered Men, they murdered Women & Children too, the Provisional IRA planted Bombs in Cars, they planted Bombs in Shopping Centres, in Pubs and Busses, the Provisional IRA shot Policemen in the head, they killed soldiers too! the Provisional IRA, knee capped (to blow off knee cap) dozens of young men who disagreed with them or stepped out of line, the Provisional made people 'disappear', the provisiaonal IRA were the 'main' protagonists of the Northern Ireland Troubles > and of that there can be NO Doubt!

Quite a few 'Civilians' in that list, i'm sure you will agree!

(Of course I am aware of the other combatants, but if people start making out that the IRA were somehow cleaner than anyone else, then I will object).

No cleaner (or dirtier) than the British Army

LordSutch

T runner wrote: »

No cleaner (or dirtier) than the British Army

Bearing in mind we had a warning from Oscar Bravo in Post#760, I will not respond!

The Original question in Post #1 was "Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland"?
and this question has been definitively answered in Post 732 ~ 734 and surrounding Posts .......

gurramok

jimmmy wrote:

Yes, but on that subject they are always consistent. The poll is not on the subject of who is best to complain to about housing benefit, the pothole in the road locally or whatever.

Try doing a poll in any conflict zone on a conflict issue. Thats my point.

djpbarry wrote: »

Are these the same election results that you claimed were skewed by a clean-up of the register?

Are you trying to twist this argument?

You and I know those election results are legit. What i had pointed out was a less than maybe 5% of the electorate who were excluded as we're discussing numbers back then.
You still never answered why 40+% of the NI electorate vote for re-unification parties, they can't all be from Protestant backgrounds?

gurramok

Camelot wrote: »

The Original question in Post #1 was "Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland"?
and this question has been definitively answered in Post 732 ~ 734 and surrounding Posts .......

Writing in bold does not make it true. Perhaps you can answer the question i put to djpbarry on the election results in the post above?

luckyfrank

Question for camelot

Id like to know why in every major town you go up north there is banners and flags of loyalist terrorist organisations ?

The only flags i see up north of nationalists are the tricolour

Why do the unionist community think this is normal, personally i am offended by it and i feel intimated when i travel through these area's and when i speak i am mindful that some peeple may dislike me simply because im from the south

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

You still never answered why 40+% of the NI electorate vote for re-unification parties...

As I've said countless times before, I think it's stretching it a bit to assume that anyone who votes for Sinn Féin or the SDLP (in particular) supports every last one of their policies. Likewise, just because someone does not vote for a unionist party, it doesn't mean that they object to all of that party's policies. Let me put it like this; if I lived in NI, I would probably prefer to be governed from Westminster than from Dublin (purely because I think the Dáil would do a worse job), but I may not be willing to vote for any of the unionist parties.

jimmmy

luckyfrank wrote: »

Id like to know why in every major town you go up north there is banners and flags of loyalist terrorist organisations ?

In my opinion, they are not perceived to be the flags of "loyalist terrorist organisations". Some towns do not have flags. The majority of the population in N. Ireland are loyal to the UK and the flags are a symbol of that.

luckyfrank wrote: »

The only flags i see up north of nationalists are the tricolour

Many up north would say the tricolour is the flag of the IRA / republicanism eg it was draped on the coffin of the Shankhill road bomber. They may not even feel comfortable here listening to the Angelus on RTE, or seeing statues in public places....but each side has to live + let live.
Just my opinion.

luckyfrank wrote: »

Why do the unionist community think this is normal,

I know people there from both communities who do not like flags , and who do not have them near where they live.

luckyfrank wrote: »

personally i am offended by it and i feel intimated when i travel through these area's
when i speak i am mindful that some peeple may dislike me simply because im from the south

You do not have to stop and speak in areas where you feel unwelcome. Someone from the majority community in N. Ireland would not necessarily feel comfortable stoping and speaking in an area that was full of tricolours, " Brits out " grafitti, republican murals etc.

luckyfrank

jimmmy wrote: »

In my opinion, they are not perceived to be the flags of "loyalist terrorist organisations". Some towns do not have flags. The majority of the population in N. Ireland are loyal to the UK and the flags are a symbol of that.

The UVF and UDA are terrorist organisations ! Fact Your opinion is irrelivent

jimmmy wrote: »

Many up north would say the tricolour is the flag of the IRA / republicanism eg it was draped on the coffin of the Shankhill road bomber. They may not even feel comfortable here listening to the Angelus on RTE, or seeing statues in public places....but each side has to live + let live.
Just my opinion.

Thats being irrational in the extreme

jimmmy wrote: »

I know people there from both communities who do not like flags , and who do not have them near where they live.

I agree with you on that

jimmmy wrote: »

You do not have to stop and speak in areas where you feel unwelcome. Someone from the majority community in N. Ireland would not necessarily feel comfortable stoping and speaking in an area that was full of tricolours, " Brits out " grafitti, republican murals etc.

Well i do actully because my job entails that i do for a starter i believe all contentions flags should be removed but the majority of contentions flags that ive seeing are of a loyalist nature

jimmmy

luckyfrank wrote: »

my job entails that i do for a starter

When you speak if you are mindful that some peeple may dislike me simply because you are from the south, thats life....a northerner once told me when he spoke he was mindful that some peeple in the south may dislike him simply because he was from a certain area in the North.... a Foxrock person may not feel comfortable in Balymun and vice versa too....

luckyfrank wrote: »

i believe all contentions flags should be removed but the majority of contentions flags that ive seeing are of a loyalist nature

I also believe all contentions flags should be removed . To the majority in N. Ireland, the flag of another jurisdiction ( given the history of the place ) is a contentious flag too. Both sides also have grafitti and murals in certain areas. You tend to get it more in working class / poorer areas on both sides.

The Original question in Post #1 was "Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland"?
and this question has been definitively answered in Post 732 ~ 734 and surrounding Posts .......

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

As I've said countless times before, I think it's stretching it a bit to assume that anyone who votes for Sinn Féin or the SDLP (in particular) supports every last one of their policies. Likewise, just because someone does not vote for a unionist party, it doesn't mean that they object to all of that party's policies. Let me put it like this; if I lived in NI, I would probably prefer to be governed from Westminster than from Dublin (purely because I think the Dáil would do a worse job), but I may not be willing to vote for any of the unionist parties.

No, its not stretching it. They vote along tribal lines. You'll never hear of a Unionist voting for a Nationalist party and a Nationalist voting for a Unionist party, its unheard of. ( I assume you've researched this and know a few people up there)

Thats why there has been inertia on every day issues for decades as the voting public vote for 'their' side first above the other. If a Unionist is not happy with the local roads, they will vote for another Unionist party, not a Nationalist one.

If you're old enough, you'll remember the 1998 GFA where there were pleas for Nationalists and Unionists to vote where possible for the other side to not let in anti-GFA parties in(DUP at the time).

Interviews were held with voters on BBC Newsline/UTV Live where voters found it extremely difficult to vote for the other side to keep out anti-GFA parties. Commentators were saying it was amazing for the first time ever that tribal politics was crossed this once for the GFA. It didn't last long once the DUP embraced the GFA a few years later as there was no need for tribal crossing to save the GFA.

You will vote for Westminister rule. The crappy Dail parties we have do not figure yet in Nationalist minds, they just want re-unification first and worry about how bad or good Dublin rule is after:)
Hardly anyone up there voted for London parties in the decision making(Lab/Con) hence they do prefer power sharing.

jimmmy wrote:

The Original question in Post #1 was "Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland"?
and this question has been definitively answered in Post 732 ~ 734 and surrounding Posts

No, it hasnt. Lets discard the elections then and depend on Uni run polls in a conflict zone nice one.:rolleyes:

jimmmy

gurramok wrote: »

They vote along tribal lines.

Not always. Tory island is in Ian Paisleys constituency. Most of the inhabitants are R.C. Yet Big Ian over many elections got most of the vote from the island. Go figure.

gurramok

jimmmy wrote: »

Not always. Tory island is in Ian Paisleys constituency. Most of the inhabitants are R.C. Yet Big Ian over many elections got most of the vote from the island. Go figure.

Can you post election results and religious census for this assumption?

jimmmy

Its well known in Antrim. If I spent enough time surfing around I am sure I could find the online confirmation you require, but to be honest I have more to do.

People often vote for whoever looks after their locality best. It happens south of the border too. I sometimes voted for someone from a party I would not normally vote for because I knew the person, and he was the best one at getting local issues sorted / looking after the constituency.

gurramok

Maybe it is well known, or maybe it is not, we'll wait and see.

My point was that locality factor does not traverse the tribal factor. A Unionist will vote for Unionist party, Alliance, Independent and would never vote for a Nationalist candidate unless forced to do so.
The latter occurred in West Belfast in the 90's. Unionists voted for Joe Hendron(SDLP) in order to stop Gerry Adams getting elected. But in the next election, Nationalists voted overwhelmingly for SF in that constituency by sheer force of numbers that in the next election, the small Unionist population went back to their traditional voting ways for UUP/DUP/PUP as it was pointless tactically voting. It was a forced blip just like what i described in the election for the GFA.

TOMASJ

jimmmy wrote: »

Not always. Tory island is in Ian Paisleys constituency. Most of the inhabitants are R.C. Yet Big Ian over many elections got most of the vote from the island. Go figure.

I think you need to go figure Jimmy, Tory Island is part of Donegal and is not in Big Ians constituency, it is the most Northerly part of the island of Ireland,