Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

Joey the lips

oscarBravo wrote: »

Before the referendum, the Constitution claimed we owned the whole island. After the referendum, that claim was relinquished.

We were asked if it was OK to accept that NI is part of the UK, and by a landslide we said "yes". You can dress that up how you like, but we voted for partition.

I respectfully ask you read the full text of the agreement and all political notes around the time. I have. Northern Ireland has a "Devolved" goverment because it cannot be accepted it is part of the UK.

We were asked to drop our claim to northern ireland we refused and had our claim amended to "By majority of the people of northern Ireland"

I have no other reason to argue with you but if you are going to quote please have the correct information.

It is very misleading.

LordSutch

T runner wrote: »

Theres no problem in accepting peoples "Britishness" but within a unified Ireland which is the only reasonable solution for this country into the future.

In your opinion.

T runner wrote: »

What reasons actually remain for partition?

Err, like, the people dont want it, the time's not right, the status quo is doing just fine, and many more reasons too ............. :rolleyes:

Oh, and by the way, Northern Ireland has a devolved government within the UK, just like Scotland & Wales, ironically the only part of the UK that doesnt have its own 'regional' government is 'England'!

junder

T runner wrote: »

I have made much effort in understanding northern protestants. I have read historical literature backing their point of view (none of which claims they are British, of course it wouldnt be taken very seriously if it did). I have always tried to be open minded and fair but I have found on many occasions to being condescended to based on my accent.

You have to admit it is a fact that protestants feel they belong to the superior community.

As for the cabs it may well have been a local cab. I collected it outside a main transport centre so had no reason to believe it other than couture.
I dont think we would tolerate paramilitaries running cab companies in this state but it seems to be OK in the "UK".

Another example if I may. On the boat today I asked for a coffee etc. I was just short of sterling change. The girl behind the counter coldly told me I could pay in Euro when I asked her. When I handed her a note (only had a fifty) she gave me change in sterling consisting of a twenty and the rest in pound and two pound coins. Obviously she knew I couldnt change these back. When I asked her for a note instead she smilingly told me she had closed the till and I should have asked her earlier etc. etc.

It was quite clear to me that the only reason for this nasty behaviour was my southern accent. This is a sign of a general hatred of the underclass who would seek to rule them and I refuse to dignify it by excusing their coldness as due to a wronged people of a different nationality.

You can only partake in the supression of people as has happenned over the last many hundred years, if you de-humanise them by believing them inferior.
Its the only way it works.

It doesnt matter who does it to whom: having that attitude (and whatever feeds it) is wrong politically and morally. I inderstand how it happens, that doesnt make it right.

and who have you been talking to about Northern Irish protestants, southern irish republicans? frankly i find your attuitude condercending and frankly racist, i am a northern irish protestant, i am very happy with my british identy but that does not extend to me feeling superior to anybody, i leave that to irish people such as yourself. Did you ever consider that the reason you were treated so badly was because of your personelty and not your national identy after all thousands of your country people travel through northern ireland and are treated very well, frankly i have doubts on the validity of your story, after all, perosnelly if i have heard the taxi driver making a sectarien comment i would most certinly remember the taxi firm.

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

Before the referendum, the Constitution claimed we owned the whole island. After the referendum, that claim was relinquished.

We were asked if it was OK to accept that NI is part of the UK, and by a landslide we said "yes". You can dress that up how you like, but we voted for partition.

The constitution did not claim that we (26 counties/catholics) "owned the whole Island" but claimed that that country of Ireland belonged to the people of Ireland.

"We were asked if it was OK to accept that NI is part of the UK,". Is that the actual text of the good friday agreement?

As I remember there were North south bodies/ east west bodies etc.

We all know the people voted for PEACE. Thats how the referendum was sold: peace or violence. It was not sold as NI permanently a part of the UK or it wouldnt have passed.

The claim on the whole of Ireland was fair given that partition was accepted as temporary on all sides in the 20's with a unified Ireland as the aspired solution.

I wonder if the people were told the full truth about that agreement E.G on entering the assembly you must declare yourself Unionist or Catholic, that in fact sectarianism was now official in the elected body of NI.

diverdriver

I knew the thread couldn't end, oh well.:rolleyes:

For example, Its still as hard as ever for a Catholic electrician to get a job with Northern Electricity. Why is that?

I don't know, I don't even know if what you say is true. My point being that, whatever the current situation, with it's legacy of bigotry and residual discrimination. Once that begins to fade and people stop asking what school you went to and it all becomes a bit more like the rest of Ireland and Britain where no one gives a flying feck what your baptism cert says. Then we'll have a situation where it can go either way. It could be that the majority would favour joining us or in fact the majority in favour of staying British could grow. We don't know yet.

What reasons actually remain for partition?

A large number of people hostile to the idea living in Northern Ireland for one.
A large number of people hostile to the idea living in the Republic for another because in all honesty those people are trouble and we cannot afford to re-employ the huge numbers who right now are working for the British government or afford to subsidise NI to the extent the British taxpayer does.

What reasons actually remain for unification?

T runner

junder wrote: »

and who have you been talking to about Northern Irish protestants, southern irish republicans? frankly i find your attuitude condercending and frankly racist, i am a northern irish protestant, i am very happy with my british identy but that does not extend to me feeling superior to anybody, i leave that to irish people such as yourself. Did you ever consider that the reason you were treated so badly was because of your personelty and not your national identy after all thousands of your country people travel through northern ireland and are treated very well, frankly i have doubts on the validity of your story, after all, perosnelly if i have heard the taxi driver making a sectarien comment i would most certinly remember the taxi firm.

So you are now calling me a liar because you dont like what I have to say?

You call me racist yet you make disparaging comments about "irish people such as" myself. I would never make a comment like that about anyone.

Lets test your honesty. Are there any insulting comments made to catholics around the 12th of July? Do protestants not act superiorly/ agressively towards catholics at that time? Are there ever comments of "dont come back" when catholics are heading south to escape the agression surrounding the 12th?
What are protestant children growing up in the North told when they start asking the awkward questions about Ireland/ N Ireland UK etc. How do you explain to them why NI is part of the UK. Do you use any disparaging negative comment about catholics southerners as part of the persuausion? Be honest now.

There ARE 100s of thousands of my countrymen now living in NI who are not treated well be the pro British establishment there.

Im not being insulting but I will be honest. I dont consider you British, I consider you Irish: you are not from Britain. You may feel you have a British identity but that doesnt make you British any more than it makes me British.

gurramok

K-9 wrote: »

You haven't referred to Boroughs whatsoever.

You know counties don't really exist in NI?

Yes, boroughs were invented to make places more accountable to the population.
The ward maps will give you an idea of whats what of the counties.

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

Incorrect. They voted to accept the good friday agreement. A vote on partition/reunification was not put before them.

If you're going to be pedantic, we voted on a constitutional amendment. That amendment relinquished our constitutional claim on Northern Ireland.

How do you partition an island by the way? You mean "country" dont you?

No, I mean island. There are two different countries on this island. We voted to change the constitution to acknowledge that fact.

Joey the lips wrote: »

We were asked to drop our claim to northern ireland we refused and had our claim amended to "By majority of the people of northern Ireland"

There is no claim. There is an expression of aspiration towards unity, and a firm statement that until such time as that unity is agreed upon by peaceful and democratic means, the country stops at the border.

I have no other reason to argue with you but if you are going to quote please have the correct information.

It is very misleading.

My information comes from the constitutional amendment that I voted on at the time, having read it - and the Good Friday agreement - very carefully.

T runner

diverdriver wrote: »

I knew the thread couldn't end, oh well.:rolleyes:



I don't know, I don't even know if what you say is true. My point being that, whatever the current situation, with it's legacy of bigotry and residual discrimination. Once that begins to fade and people stop asking what school you went to and it all becomes a bit more like the rest of Ireland and Britain where no one gives a flying feck what your baptism cert says. Then we'll have a situation where it can go either way. It could be that the majority would favour joining us or in fact the majority in favour of staying British could grow. We don't know yet.

A large number of people hostile to the idea living in Northern Ireland for one.

No other reason than that?

A large number of people hostile to the idea living in the Republic for another because in all honesty those people are trouble and we cannot afford to re-employ the huge numbers who right now are working for the British government or afford to subsidise NI to the extent the British taxpayer does.

What reasons actually remain for unification

It is the only non-supranational solution.
When people finally realise that peolple here are not going to hang them from lamposts on unification and that they and their beliefs will be respected the attitude will soften.

Re-Unification was the stated intention of all parties at partition once the sectarian issue (i.e catholic fundamentalism in Free state?) was resolved. This has long been the case.

If the 26 counties were still part of the UK it would cost the British taxpayer 100 Billion per annum. Yes NI would have to stop being a dependency on Britain just as the rest of Ireland had to but that would be a good thing for positive economic activity there.

Some of the anomalies of the border are destabilising the economies particularly the southern one due to the currency and price differential.

Economies od scale. Ireland could have a unified policy towards tourism foreign investment etc. which would provide economies of scale and also boost economic activity in Ireland.

No need for duplicity in too many things to mention. etc. etc

Yes there are always short term problems with any change but the long term outlooks would be far more promising than the current situation having a border through such a tiny country like ireland.

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

"We were asked if it was OK to accept that NI is part of the UK,". Is that the actual text of the good friday agreement?

We voted on a constitutional amendment, not on the GFA.

We all know the people voted for PEACE. Thats how the referendum was sold: peace or violence. It was not sold as NI permanently a part of the UK or it wouldnt have passed.

Who mentioned "permanently"? That's a straw man you just dragged in.

I wonder if the people were told the full truth about that agreement E.G on entering the assembly you must declare yourself Unionist or Catholic, that in fact sectarianism was now official in the elected body of NI.

I assume that anyone who was interested enough read the Agreement, rather than relying upon anyone else to tell them the truth about it.

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you're going to be pedantic, we voted on a constitutional amendment. That amendment relinquished our constitutional claim on Northern Ireland. No, I mean island. There are two different countries on this island. We voted to change the constitution to acknowledge that fact.

We actually voted to change the constitution because we were told that that was the only way to secure peace.
Articles 2 and 3 did not deny a foreign state had control over some of Ireland, it was there because of this.

Again how do you politically partition an Island? You can only partition a country in that sense.

junder

T runner wrote: »

So you are now calling me a liar because you dont like what I have to say?

You call me racist yet you make disparaging comments about "irish people such as" myself. I would never make a comment like that about anyone.

Lets test your honesty. Are there any insulting comments made to catholics around the 12th of July? Do protestants not act superiorly/ agressively towards catholics at that time? Are there ever comments of "dont come back" when catholics are heading south to escape the agression surrounding the 12th?
What are protestant children growing up in the North told when they start asking the awkward questions about Ireland/ N Ireland UK etc. How do you explain to them why NI is part of the UK. Do you use any disparaging negative comment about catholics southerners as part of the persuausion? Be honest now.

There ARE 100s of thousands of my countrymen now living in NI who are not treated well be the pro British establishment there.

Im not being insulting but I will be honest. I dont consider you British, I consider you Irish: you are not from Britain. You may feel you have a British identity but that doesnt make you British any more than it makes me British.

more blantent racism, i will conceed that maybe i did make things clear, i have no problem with irish people in general, only irish bigots such as yourself.
I am a member of a flute band, i am a member of the apprentice boys, I am even a member of the terretorial army, i love the 12th but i have also been invloved in cross community youth work for 14 years (harmony community trust, glebe house if you must know, you can even check them out on the web) so no i not make disparaging about people from the catholic community on the 12th or at any other time of the year, as for feeling looking down my nose at anybody, i live in a poor working class loyalist estate (one of the top most deprived areas in northern ireland as it happens) so remind me what exactly i have to feel superior about. When it comes to my British identy, were have i said i am more or less British then anybodt else, i have only stated that Britishness is my identy and nothing more, frankly i don't give a damn what you consider as it is up to me how i define myself and nobody else, again the only person who is anyway acting with some sort of cultral superioty is yourself with your constant running down of my comunity

Joey the lips

I have just realised that the problem with this thread is prodestants have decided to comment on what they perceive catholics want. This seems contra to the subject. It amounts to the arabs commenting on

Should isreal stay in the golan heights?

I will leave you to argue a pointless cause!!!!!

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

We actually voted to change the constitution because we were told that that was the only way to secure peace.

Sure, that's why a lot of people voted for it, but people's reasons for voting don't change the effect of the constitutional amendment.

Articles 2 and 3 did not deny a foreign state had control over some of Ireland, it was there because of this.

And they were changed to reflect our acceptance of that fact.

Again how do you politically partition an Island? You can only partition a country in that sense.

The island is partitioned, and there are two different countries on it. What's unclear about that?

T runner

junder wrote: »

more blantent racism, i will conceed that maybe i did make things clear, i have no problem with irish people in general, only irish bigots such as yourself.

Please stop calling me names. When have I shown bogotry in any form here?
I cant be racist to you because I dont consider you a foreigner or from a different race to me.

I am a member of a flute band, i am a member of the apprentice boys, I am even a member of the terretorial army, i love the 12th but i have also been invloved in cross community youth work for 14 years (harmony community trust, glebe house if you must know, you can even check them out on the web) so no i not make about people from the catholic community on the 12th or at any other time of the year, as for feeling looking down my nose at anybody, i live in a poor working class loyalist estate (one of the top most deprived areas in northern ireland as it happens) so remind me what exactly i have to feel superior about.

My point is not about you in particular but an underlying attitute of protestants seeing catholics as second class citizens and treating them this way.

These were my questions (below) which you ignored. I didnt ask if you made insulting comments I am asking if these comments are made and also I am asking how you explain the situation in the north (which it should be part of the UK) to young protestants. If you put down catholics to convince youngsters that staying in the UK is right then bigotry will live long in Ireland and it proves that the desire to remain in the UK is directly connected with passed on sectarianism and bigotry.

"Are there any insulting comments made to catholics around the 12th of July? Do protestants not act superiorly/ agressively towards catholics at that time? Are there ever comments of "dont come back" when catholics are heading south to escape the agression surrounding the 12th?
What are protestant children growing up in the North told when they start asking the awkward questions about Ireland/ N Ireland UK etc. How do you explain to them why NI is part of the UK. Do you use any disparaging negative comment about catholics southerners as part of the persuausion? Be honest now."

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

Please stop calling me names. When have I shown bogotry in any form here?
I cant be racist to you because I dont consider you a foreigner or from a different race to me.

If someone considers themselves British, and you tell them "I don't consider you British", then you just might need to open your mind to the possibility that they may be offended by that.

junder

T runner wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Please stop calling me names. When have I shown bogotry in any form here?
I cant be racist to you because I dont consider you a foreigner or from a different race to me.



My point is not about you in particular but an underlying attitute of protestants seeing catholics as second class citizens and treating them this way.

These were my questions (below) which you ignored. I didnt ask if you made insulting comments I am asking if these comments are made and also I am asking how you explain the situation in the north (which it should be part of the UK) to young protestants. If you put down catholics to convince youngsters that staying in the UK is right then bigotry will live long in Ireland and it proves that the desire to remain in the UK is directly connected with passed on sectarianism and bigotry.

"Are there any insulting comments made to catholics around the 12th of July? Do protestants not act superiorly/ agressively towards catholics at that time? Are there ever comments of "dont come back" when catholics are heading south to escape the agression surrounding the 12th?
What are protestant children growing up in the North told when they start asking the awkward questions about Ireland/ N Ireland UK etc. How do you explain to them why NI is part of the UK. Do you use any disparaging negative comment about catholics southerners as part of the persuausion? Be honest now."

Bigots tend to make gross generlizations about a community such as the one i highlighted above, moreover as i have already pointed out, i will determine my national and cultural indenty not you. Sectarianism is indemic in both communitys in Northern ireland.

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure, that's why a lot of people voted for it, but people's reasons for voting don't change the effect of the constitutional amendment.

You claimed we voted for partition. We voted for peace.
You claimed also that people who were interested in the Good Friday agreement would have read it in its entirety. I disagree. Many people who are interested rely on politicinas and media coverage (wrongly). That coverage told us that voting to keep the articles was akin to voting for a return to violence. Proper debate on the subject was deliberately avoided by politicians etc. Anyone who objected was marginalised even by republicans.

That doesnt make me any sort of dissident by the way. It makes me someone
who objects to both the sectarian nature of that agreement and dropping the articles for no other rational reason than to appease a threat of violence.

And they were changed to reflect our acceptance of that fact.

The articles and us had already accepted the fact that a foreign power controlled part of Ireland.

The island is partitioned, and there are two different countries on it. What's unclear about that?

If you partition an island you create two islands.

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

You claimed we voted for partition. We voted for peace.

We voted for a constitutional amendment. The direct effect of that amendment was to alter the constitution so as to remove our territorial claim on part of another country. A more indirect effect was a continuing peace process.

You claimed also that people who were interested in the Good Friday agreement would have read it in its entirety. I disagree. Many people who are interested rely on politicinas and media coverage (wrongly). That coverage told us that voting to keep the articles was akin to voting for a return to violence. Proper debate on the subject was deliberately avoided by politicians etc. Anyone who objected was marginalised even by republicans.

Whatever people's reasons for voting, I don't think anyone was under any illusions but that the amendment would remove our territorial claim on Northern Ireland, and we voted in favour anyway.

That doesnt make me any sort of dissident by the way. It makes me someone
who objects to both the sectarian nature of that agreement and dropping the articles for no other rational reason than to appease a threat of violence.

Fair enough - and I fully support your right to campaign for a constitutional amendment to reinstate our territorial claim on Northern Ireland, as long as you do so through strictly peaceful means. For that matter, feel free to campaign to change the constitution to claim all of Europe.

The articles and us had already accepted the fact that a foreign power controlled part of Ireland.

The original version of the articles claimed the whole island, but also tacitly accepted that Irish law didn't apply north of the border. The revised version contains no such territorial claim.

If you partition an island you create two islands.

My toolbox is partitioned. That doesn't mean I have several toolboxes.

T runner

T runner wrote: »

i will determine my national and cultural indenty not you.

Yet People who want to be Irish in NI are not allowed determine their national identity. They are forced to be British. Different rules for different folks up there I guess.

junder wrote: »

Bigots tend to make gross generlizations about a community such as the one i highlighted above, moreover as i have already pointed out...............
Sectarianism is indemic in both communitys in Northern ireland.

But its OK to make generalisations about both communities right?
I was at a funeral of an old lady in west belfast. An area similar to youir own economically. I didnt hear one adverse comment about protestants all weekend not one.

You think its endemic in both communities. You only know for sure its endemic in your own.




If you are able then refute my comments but please stop name calling.

You have conveniently still avoid answering the hard questions I posed to you?
What does that tell us? You accused me of being dishonest but avoiding difficult questions surely lacks integrity.

Tell us honestly, what is told to young protestants growing up about catholics and southerners to explain to them why it is preferable for them to remain in the UK?

djpbarry

T runner wrote: »

Irish or Northern Irish would do. They come from Ireland not Britain after all.

No, they come from the UK. You seem to be having a tremendous amount of difficulty accepting this very simple fact.

T runner wrote: »

On trhe other occasion the persons attitude to me visibly changed when she heard my accent.

But you have no idea why. You just assumed she was a bigot because that fits in with your worldview.

T runner wrote: »

How do you partition an island by the way?

With an international border?

T runner wrote: »

Do you feel that people who call themselves Irish rights are now respected in NI? You cant even hold a passport of the UK without being classified as "British".

Likewise, a person who holds an Irish passport is likely to be classified as “Irish”. Oh the inhumanity of it all!

T runner wrote: »

What reasons actually remain for partition?

The existence of an international border? The democratic will of the people?

T runner wrote:

When have I shown bogotry in any form here?
…
My point is not about you in particular but an underlying attitute of protestants seeing catholics as second class citizens and treating them this way.

:rolleyes:

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

Yet People who want to be Irish in NI are not allowed determine their national identity. They are forced to be British. Different rules for different folks up there I guess.

That's why everyone in Northern Ireland has a British passport, right?

getz

T runner wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote: »

You claimed we voted for partition. We voted for peace.
You claimed also that people who were interested in the Good Friday agreement would have read it in its entirety. I disagree. Many people who are interested rely on politicinas and media coverage (wrongly). That coverage told us that voting to keep the articles was akin to voting for a return to violence. Proper debate on the subject was deliberately avoided by politicians etc. Anyone who objected was marginalised even by republicans.

That doesnt make me any sort of dissident by the way. It makes me someone
who objects to both the sectarian nature of that agreement and dropping the articles for no other rational reason than to appease a threat of violence.


The articles and us had already accepted the fact that a foreign power controlled part of Ireland.



If you partition an island you create two islands.

note ;china and hong kong one country two systems maybe its the people in the north think that the republic is the foreign country- remember the uk has treated the republic since 1948 the same as it has treated northern ireland[-it dident need to do this when the republic pulled out of the commonwealth the uk could have treated it like any other foreign country and stopped rep of ireland people living and working in the uk this would also have stopped any trade with the uk and commonwealth ;this would have bankrupt the republic as your minister was told at the time.but the uk did not go through with it ,so ireland continued to get all the benifets of the commonwealth with out being a member ,stop knocking the british and start remembering how much they have helped your young country since 1948-

LordSutch

T runner wrote: »

I dont consider you British, I consider you Irish: you are not from Britain. You may feel you have a British identity but that doesnt make you British any more than it makes me British.

This says it all really :rolleyes: > If you dont accept peoples Nationality, what then?

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

We voted for a constitutional amendment. The direct effect of that amendment was to alter the constitution so as to remove our territorial claim on part of another country. A more indirect effect was a continuing peace process.

I disagree. Technically the reason the articles were changed were to facilitate the good friday agreement. The good friday agreement allowed that all people born in Ireland entitlement to Irish citizenship, this was added to article 2. A will to unite the peoples of Ireland with the guarantee of the protection of cultural diversity was put in to placate unionism.

Under the old article the territory of the Irish nation was defined by the whole of Ireland although the reality of the 26 county state was also recognised.

Your reasons for the removal of the articles for this reason are therefore invalid.

The articles were amended to facilitate the passing of the good friday agreement.

We were told. No amendment, no good friday agreement in North, no peace (i.e no proper debate).

My toolbox is partitioned. That doesn't mean I have several toolboxes.

Exactly! In ireland we have two political states in one country.

T runner

Camelot wrote: »

This says it all really :rolleyes: > If you dont accept peoples Nationality what then?

The British establishment does not accept the Irish nationality as citizens of the UK. You cannot be defined as Irish and hold a UK passport. You are defined as British even though you may have never even visited Britain. Any comment to make on that lack of acceptance of peoples nationality?

That poster was not from Britain, or France or China he was from Ireland. If he held a Chinese passport and came from Belfast I would not believe him Chinese.

If Britain wants Irish people be citizens of the UK then it should start calling them Irish and stop calling them British.

T runner

getz wrote: »

T runner wrote: »

note ;china and hong kong one country two systems maybe its the people in the north think that the republic is the foreign country- remember the uk has treated the republic since 1948 the same as it has treated northern ireland[-it dident need to do this when the republic pulled out of the commonwealth the uk could have treated it like any other foreign country and stopped rep of ireland people living and working in the uk this would also have stopped any trade with the uk and commonwealth ;this would have bankrupt the republic as your minister was told at the time.but the uk did not go through with it ,so ireland continued to get all the benifets of the commonwealth with out being a member ,stop knocking the british and start remembering how much they have helped your young country since 1948-

Thats just conjecture. England always benefitted most from its "special" relationship with Ireland. Thats the nature of colonists.

LordSutch

I was under the impression that Northerners could apply for an Irish Passport should they want one?

By the way T runner, you sound very bitter & angry at my Britishness > whats up with you?

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's why everyone in Northern Ireland has a British passport, right?

No, thats why a lot of Irish people there dont have one.

T runner

Camelot wrote: »

I was under the impression that Northerners could apply for an Irish Passport should they want one?

That makes them a citizen of the republic of Ireland. If you hold a UK password you cannot be Irish even though part of Ireland is under UK juristiction.