Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

LordSutch

So what you are saying is that everybody in Northern Ireland should be given an Irish Passport instead of a British Passport?

Adamcp898

T runner wrote: »

No, thats why a lot of Irish people there dont have one.

Yes they may, the Good Friday agreements states that

it is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

If you feel you're Irish you may have Irish citizenship and a passport as our constitution was amended to allow for this after the agreement.

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

If someone considers themselves British, and you tell them "I don't consider you British", then you just might need to open your mind to the possibility that they may be offended by that.

But they should open up their mind and accept my right to have an opinion.
Getting insulted by anothers opinion is actually close minded.

If they said to me "I consider that I have three legs", I could reasonably have an opinion that they had 4 legs or two and they could be insulted. But thats my opinion if they react in a small-minded way to it it has nothing to do with me and wont stop me being honest.

Plenty of people have intimated on ths thread that people born in Ireland are British becuase Ireland is part of the British Isles. I disagree entirely but I wont get insulted, its someones opinion. Reacting emotionally to an argument is no way to proceed. (my opinion, dont get insulted)

mrgaa1

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Yes they may, the Good Friday agreements states that

it is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

If you feel you're Irish you may have Irish citizenship and a passport as our constitution was amended to allow for this after the agreement.

Correct and in fact there are a lot of non-nationalist people in the north of ireland who hold an Irish passport.
I can't see a united Ireland ever happening - certainly more co-operation will exist but there are fundamental issues in the north that can not be overcome due to religion, political views and the general ignorance of fellow north of Ireland people regarding Dublin & London. Sadly an united ireland will never happen unless the peoples views on both sides of the border are listened to. In relation to sport, trade and finance we will be looked upon as one country but geographically that border line will exist. In fact it should exist as in times of economic uncertainty both sides of the border do ok. But overall I believe the genuine consensus would be one where the de facto remains.

getz

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Yes they may, the Good Friday agreements states that

it is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

If you feel you're Irish you may have Irish citizenship and a passport as our constitution was amended to allow for this after the agreement.

it just the same all over the uk some info[[1991 one million people living in the uk was irish, five million had a irish parent ,ten million people was irish or irish decent, it is now believed it is closer to fourteen million most of them can claim either irish or british passports that is more than all the peoples living on the irish mainland

T runner

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Yes they may, the Good Friday agreements states that

it is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

If you feel you're Irish you may have Irish citizenship and a passport as our constitution was amended to allow for this after the agreement.

You cannot be Irish under your UK passport alone even though part of Ireland is in the UK. It is possible to hold a UK passport and be British but not possible to hold a UK passport and be Irish.

Only people holding a republic of Ireland passport are allowed be Irish.

Dudess

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

and whats their reasoning then?

To be an Irish person, born and raised in the 26 counties, no British blood... yet unionist - like e.g. Conor Cruise O'Brien? I really don't know.

K-9 wrote: »

I see no problem in Unionists living in the 26 counties and Republicans living in the wee 6.

I'm not talking about unionists from NI coming to live in the Republic - my mate's a unionist from Belfast living in Cork - I'm talking about (southern) Irish people deciding to be unionist.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I wouldn't call myself a unionist, but I can see a certain logic in not wanting to have the six counties as part of Ireland.

Oh yeah, I understand that - that's not what I'm referring to though.

K-9 wrote: »

Welcome to Northern small mindedness, it isn't a solely Protestant thing, it's equal opportunities from what I've seen.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

fryup wrote: »

so you got lousy service on the ferry..so what:rolleyes: it could happen to anyone at anytime

maybe she was having a bad day, and who's to say that girl didn't come from a nationalist community

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, that sounds like quite a nasty experience. But don't worry; I'm sure the scars will heal with time.
Or so you decided. So whenever you have an unpleasant experience, you put it down to bigotry?

Sigh... It makes me despair when people down here just forget the grotesqueness of how catholics were treated in the North and assume none of that exists any longer. Is it denial? Don't worry, acknowledging that there is still bigotry and sectarianism against catholics in Northern Ireland won't make you look like a chucky - I promise. Before you say "but protestants experience bigotry by catholics"... I know. It's said enough by people who have taken the anti republican agenda so far, they even gloss over some of the realities of life for northern catholics.

junder wrote: »

i am a member of the apprentice boys... i love the 12th

Would you not understand where catholics are coming from though when they consider the Apprentice Boys an organisation which is hostile to them? Would you also not see that the 12th is a very scary day for catholics in some areas of the north? A day when they feel compelled to travel south or stay indoors all day? These are you traditions but I think it's only fair you understand catholics haven't much time for them - not because they celebrate loyalism, but because they are hostile to catholics/nationalists.

i live in a poor working class loyalist estate (one of the top most deprived areas in northern ireland as it happens) so remind me what exactly i have to feel superior about.

Not you at all, but some within the unionist community, most definitely.

i have only stated that Britishness is my identy and nothing more, frankly i don't give a damn what you consider as it is up to me how i define myself and nobody else, again the only person who is anyway acting with some sort of cultral superioty is yourself with your constant running down of my comunity

Taking issue with the tendencies of certain members of a particular community is not running down the community in its entirety. There is nothing wrong with you being proud of your Britishness and wanting to remain in the United Kingdom.

djpbarry wrote: »

No, they come from the UK. You seem to be having a tremendous amount of difficulty accepting this very simple fact.
But you have no idea why. You just assumed she was a bigot because that fits in with your worldview.

And maybe she WAS a bigot. It's not anti unionist to suggest that. Irish people are bloody obsessed with not coming across as anti unionist here, to the point of verging on Conor Cruise O'Brien/Eoghan Harris type disingenuousness.

:rolleyes:

If you genuinely think there isn't a sense of superiority within certain unionist circles, you've either forgotten chunks of history, you're too young to remember, or your head is in the clouds. Yes, things have improved; yes, there are extremely open-minded unionists... but to say the bigotry has just vanished is woefully, woefully naive.

Poloman

No I certainly dont. I dont like the majority Northern people they are arrogant and look down on people in the south.

They can stay under British Rule. And the financial implications of taking in those counties into the great Republic would be a struggle to maintain. No sirree... leave things as they are.

T runner

mrgaa1 wrote: »

Correct and in fact there are a lot of non-nationalist people in the north of ireland who hold an Irish passport.
I can't see a united Ireland ever happening - certainly more co-operation will exist but there are fundamental issues in the north that can not be overcome due to religion, political views and the general ignorance of fellow north of Ireland people regarding Dublin & London. Sadly an united ireland will never happen unless the peoples views on both sides of the border are listened to. In relation to sport, trade and finance we will be looked upon as one country but geographically that border line will exist. In fact it should exist as in times of economic uncertainty both sides of the border do ok. But overall I believe the genuine consensus would be one where the de facto remains.

The republic is not doing OK due to that border at the moment is it?
Economics is actually a long term reason for losing the border.

Adamcp898

getz wrote: »

it just the same all over the uk some info[[1991 one million people living in the uk was irish, five million had a irish parent ,ten million people was irish or irish decent, it is now believed it is closer to fourteen million most of them can claim either irish or british passports that is more than all the peoples living on the irish mainland

Yes but those peoples entitlement to an Irish passport has come from the fact that their parents or grandparents were Irish and so even though they were born in the UK they still had the right to apply for Irish citizenship.

What the good friday agreement did though was allow people who felt they were more Irish than British, who themselves and their parents and grandparents were born in northern Ireland i.e. Britain, and would not normally have the right to have Irish citizenship, apply for citizenship of Ireland.

Dudess

Camelot wrote: »

By the way T runner, you sound very bitter & angry at my Britishness > whats up with you?

I thought you were Irish? In which case, you're not British just because you fancy yourself as British.

Dudess

Poloman wrote: »

I dont like the majority Northern people they are arrogant and look down on people in the south.

This the other side of it: how do you know?

Adamcp898

T runner wrote: »

You cannot be Irish under your UK passport alone even though part of Ireland is in the UK. It is possible to hold a UK passport and be British but not possible to hold a UK passport and be Irish.

Only people holding a republic of Ireland passport are allowed be Irish.

Yes and if you want a british passport then why do you want to hold irish citizenship?????

The fact remains if you're from northern ireland and want to be Irish you can be and likewise if you want ot be british you can be

T runner wrote: »

The republic is not doing OK due to that border at the moment is it?
Economics is actually a long term reason for losing the border.

The north didn't exactly do to well either while Sterling was pummelling the punt/euro especially in the border areas. Just because the shoes on the other foot now things can't just change.

and the north isn't set up that badly for the recession either economically wise

getz

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Yes but those peoples entitlement to an Irish passport has come from the fact that their parents or grandparents were Irish and so even though they were born in the UK they still had the right to apply for Irish citizenship.

What the good friday agreement did though was allow people who felt they were more Irish than British, who themselves and their parents and grandparents were born in northern Ireland i.e. Britain, and would not normally have the right to have Irish citizenship, apply for citizenship of Ireland.

you can be irish and have both british and republic passports you know-

T runner

djpbarry wrote: »

No, they come from the UK. You seem to be having a tremendous amount of difficulty accepting this very simple fact.

Britain not the same as UK. UK of Britain and NI. All passport holders called British. Not possible to hold UK passport and be defined as Irish/ N Irish. Therefore Irish identity not allowed for UK passport holders. Clear now?

But you have no idea why.

Ive stated why. Her attitude towards me deteriorated when she heard my accent. She threw a load of shrapnel at me, closed the till and refuded to give me a note claiming that the transaction was finished.

I didnt tape record the incident but I can assure you my being a southerner was indeed the issue.

It might suit you to pretend there isnt an attitude to catholics/southerners in the North but you would be completely wrong.

Likewise, a person who holds an Irish passport is likely to be classified as “Irish”. Oh the inhumanity of it all!

If I came from the North I would not be able to get a password for that juristiction because it doesnt allow me to be Irish even though the juristiction is in Ireland. Inhuman is not far off it.

Adamcp898

getz wrote: »

you can be irish and have both british and republic passports you know-

Yes its contained in one of my earlier posts...........

T runner

Adamcp898 wrote: »

who themselves and their parents and grandparents were born in northern Ireland i.e. Britain, and would not normally have the right to have Irish citizenship, apply for citizenship of Ireland.

You see thats the problem. Northern Ireland is in the political entity the UK, not in Britain. UK is Britain plus NI. If the authorities were serious about having Irish people as members of their country surely they would not force everyone who holds a UK passport to be defined as British?

junder

T runner wrote: »

T runner wrote: »

Yet People who want to be Irish in NI are not allowed determine their national identity. They are forced to be British. Different rules for different folks up there I guess.



But its OK to make generalisations about both communities right?
I was at a funeral of an old lady in west belfast. An area similar to youir own economically. I didnt hear one adverse comment about protestants all weekend not one.

You think its endemic in both communities. You only know for sure its endemic in your own.




If you are able then refute my comments but please stop name calling.

You have conveniently still avoid answering the hard questions I posed to you?
What does that tell us? You accused me of being dishonest but avoiding difficult questions surely lacks integrity.

Tell us honestly, what is told to young protestants growing up about catholics and southerners to explain to them why it is preferable for them to remain in the UK?

ask me a sensiable question and i will answer it, try to accuse my community as being the only bigoted community in northern ireland then i will continue to call you a bigot. As i already mentioned i have worked in cross community youth work for many years, if you bothered to look up the group i worked for you will find its a cross community residentual center in which we work with youg people from all communitys in northern ireland, not just the protestant catholic ones, and having worked with young people from the falls to the shankill rd i am well aware of high deep sectarianism runs through both communitys

T runner

Camelot wrote: »

So what you are saying is that everybody in Northern Ireland should be given an Irish Passport instead of a British Passport?

No I am saying that not allowing people be defined as Irish or Northern Irish who hold a UK passport amounts to suppressing the Irish identity.
If you hold a UK passport your identity is Britsh end of story. You cannot have parity of esteem and hold a UK passport.

oscarBravo

OK; enough. This is turning into another one of those mindlessly stupid semantic debates about the exact meanings of words.

T Runner, if you don't understand that (a) "British" is a term that can mean more than "being of, or pertaining to, the island consisting of England, Scotland and Wales" and (b) there's a difference between an island and a country, I don't know what else to say to you.