Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

djpbarry

Deedsie wrote: »

Sinn Feins growth in popularity in the North...

...the growing Nationalist population in the North...

Statements like these get thrown about an awful lot on these boards, but I've yet to see any evidence to back them up.

LordSutch

Deedsie wrote: »

I realise there would be concession made to unionists if a united Ireland was to be declared, however the title of this thread refers to the wanting of a united Ireland. No mention of a united Ireland under a new flag, Anthem and all that Jazz.

To the very basic question of would people prefer a united Ireland, nothing more nothing less, then i think 'Yes' would be the answer.

Or indeed 'NO' unless several Consessions (like the Commonwealth, the Flag, the Anthem, etc, etc, etc) were all fundamentally altered & addressed to embrace the aspirations of the whole island (Green + Orange + Red White & Blue) and our relationship with Britain.

With all these questions addressed then .......... maybe

oscarBravo

Deedsie wrote: »

To the very basic question of would people prefer a united Ireland, nothing more nothing less, then i think yes would be the answer.

To the very basic question of would people like a thousand euro, nothing more nothing less, I think yes would be the answer.

Question is, what would they be prepared to sacrifice to achieve it?

The Corinthian

Deedsie wrote: »

I dont think 80 years of defying the will of the people of Derry the right to decide the name of their own sod can really be regarded as rushing in?

What's that got to do with what I was talking about? Bit of a straw man, TBH.

'Rushing in' is speaking and acting without knowing anything and not thinking about the consequences.

I realise there would be concession made to unionists if a united Ireland was to be declared, however the title of this thread refers to the wanting of a united Ireland. No mention of a united Ireland under a new flag, Anthem and all that Jazz.

How can you ask whether people want a united Ireland without telling them what this would mean? And I don't mean in vague fluffy terms.

Is this more of that "let's unify and worry about the consequences later" rubbish?

To the very basic question of would people prefer a united Ireland, nothing more nothing less, then i think yes would be the answer.

Can we get World peace, the cure for cancer and Santa with that please?

The question you'd like people to answer yes to is "would people prefer a united Ireland at any cost". The answer, you'll find, is no. So if you want a meaningful answer, you'll really need to consider that cost, because anyone with half a brain will.

Deedsie

Flag is perfect as it is, represents both sides or at least it was designed too. Should be seen by unionists as welcoming but unfortunately its been hijacked and seen as a symbol of Hatred. Last thing it should do.

I cant imagine a situation where Ireland would rejoin the commonwealth. But id imagine a British - Irish Council could be woven into the constitution with special relationship with the UK or something like that.

The anthem is the trickiest part of it all if you ask me. I think the North needs to declare what its anthem is to be (Anthem which represents all communities in the North) Derry Air?

And similar to South Africa, a combo anthem should be created. Nkosi Skelele,
Amhran Na Bhfiann/The Derry Air.

I know that is very much slanted to a Nationalist point of view but are our differences worse than aparthied in South Africa?

Also a United Ireland would have a majority Nationalist make up, so the symbols of the nation should represent this with concessions made to Unionist sensitivities.

Possibly a federal country with a parliment for Ulster in Belfast.

What do ye think? Any hope?

getz

i would like to think every irish person would like to be part of a united ireland -but when it comes down to the questions of will they give up a NHS or other social increments when you have young children ,to be part of a new country i am not so sure

LordSutch

Deedsie wrote: »

Flag is perfect as it is,

No it isnt.

Deedsie wrote: »

represents both sides or at least it was designed too. Should be seen by unionists as welcoming but unfortunately its been hijacked and seen as a symbol of Hatred. Last thing it should do.

I understand the idea of the Green & Orange traditions 'United' with the White in the centre, but many Unionists are not 'Orange', I might also add that there is not even a hint of Unionism in the Tricolour - hence 'my idea' of the addition of the 'Cross of St Patrick' to the White Portion of the Tricolour? that would work for me (and it would take nothing away from the existing flag) which should keep Nationalists Happy?

Deedsie wrote: »

I cant imagine a situation where Ireland would rejoin the commonwealth. But id imagine a British - Irish Council could be woven into the constitution with special relationship with the UK or something like that.

:rolleyes: Ah, now thats where we part company on theories ............

Deedsie wrote: »

The anthem is the trickiest part of it all if you ask me. I think the North needs to declare what its anthem is to be (Anthem which represents all communities in the North) Derry Air?

Straight in the bin with 'Amhran Na Bhfiann' if you ask me, but to be replaced by something agreed by all on the island of Ireland, without any hatred towards anybody else.

Deedsie wrote: »

I know that is very much slanted to a Nationalist point of view but are our differences worse than aparthied in South Africa?

Apartheid

Deedsie wrote: »

What do ye think? Any hope?

Hope indeed, and I hope the UK never breaks up ....... but if it does, then I have made my points above.

ilkhanid

Fine Gael...Commonwealth party? Yes, the party that in coalition took Ireland out of the Commonwealth, which looks in retrospect like a mistake. Which goes to show the foolishness of trying to be "greener than thou" against FF.
No,the flag is not perfect. It would have to be replaced in any future arrangement. Yes, the idea of the tricolour was good, but what it originally was intended to represent has been overwritten by what events have made it represent,namely, the flag of nationalism.However you put it, saying it was 'hijacked'..what you will..the fact is,the clock can't be put back in this matter.
And..."we are sovreign unique race with our own culture,tradition and language,this has all been established....".
No, we are a mongrel race, just like most of the others,just like our neighbours and we have traditions,cultures and languages (emphasis on the plural) and we can't go back to this fantasy of a monocultural, monolithic Ireland. If there ever is a united Ireland, the North will have a relationship with the South such as Scotland has to England, or Hong Kong has to China and we can forget about this "32 county neutral,socialist republic" this hoary old dream peddled for decades by Sinn Fein.

Deedsie

"Amhran Na Bhfiann in the Bin" is not very sensitive towards Nationalists now is it? How is it any less provocative than God Save the relevant monarch?

You'll hopefully agree that Phil Coulter is not allowed write the anthem you are referring too? He has already made a joke of the Irish Rugby team.

It sure is complicated alright. Is there any word on changing the Anthem and Flag of north Ireland?

LordSutch

Well said ilkhanid ..............

LordSutch

Deedsie wrote: »

It sure is complicated alright. Is there any word on changing the Anthem and Flag of north Ireland?

I did make a serious suggestion re the flag in Post#248.

Deedsie

ilkhanid wrote: »

Fine Gael...Commonwealth party? Yes, the party that in coalition took Ireland out of the Commonwealth, which looks in retrospect like a mistake. Which goes to show the foolishness of trying to be "greener than thou" against FF.
No,the flag is not perfect. It would have to be replaced in any future arrangement. Yes, the idea of the tricolour was good, but what it originally was intended to represent has been overwritten by what events have made it represent,namely, the flag of nationalism.However you put it, saying it was 'hijacked'..what you will..the fact is,the clock can't be put back in this matter.
And..."we are sovreign unique race with our own culture,tradition and language,this has all been established....".
No, we are a mongrel race, just like most of the others,just like our neighbours and we have traditions,cultures and languages (emphasis on the plural) and we can't go back to this fantasy of a monocultural, monolithic Ireland. If there ever is a united Ireland, the North will have a relationship with the South such as Scotland has to England, or Hong Kong has to China and we can forget about this "32 county neutral,socialist republic" this hoary old dream peddled for decades by Sinn Fein.

I respectfully disagree, was there not some part of the GFA that suggested when a Nationalist majority voted in the North that it wanted out of the North it would happen? Was that just a load of BS that the 32 counties voted for?

Was Fine Gael never reffered to as the Commonwealth party? I know they declared the republic too but there is something lingering there. Tri-Colour besdie the Ulster Flag is a fair compromise or a Red Hand knocking around somewhere.

getz

no words in god save the queen insult anyone but the words ;the saxon foe;is very insulting to friendly neighbouring saxons

Deedsie

Camelot wrote: »

I did make a serious suggestion re the flag in Post#248.

You certainly did and i should have acknowledeged it. Would they change the northen Ireland flag in the current climate is what i meant?

I made a compromise to Amhran Na Bhfiann as well?

djpbarry

Deedsie wrote: »

"Amhran Na Bhfiann in the Bin" is not very sensitive towards Nationalists now is it? How is it any less provocative than God Save the relevant monarch?

They're both feckin' awful songs.

The Corinthian

Deedsie wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, was there not some part of the GFA that suggested when a Nationalist majority voted in the North that it wanted out of the North it would happen? Was that just a load of BS that the 32 counties voted for?

I'm not sure exactly how it is defined. I believe the principle of self determination was included, but as to the details, I don't know. I would be very surprised, and dismayed, if a simple majority could decide something as contentious as that.

Of course, even if the north voted to leave the UK by a 99% majority, the south would still have to vote on whether we want them to join us...

getz wrote: »

no words in god save the queen insult anyone but the words ;the saxon foe;is very insulting to friendly neighbouring saxons

Poor Germans.

luckyfrank

ilkhanid wrote: »

Fine Gael...Commonwealth party? Yes, the party that in coalition took Ireland out of the Commonwealth, which looks in retrospect like a mistake. Which goes to show the foolishness of trying to be "greener than thou" against FF.
No,the flag is not perfect. It would have to be replaced in any future arrangement. Yes, the idea of the tricolour was good, but what it originally was intended to represent has been overwritten by what events have made it represent,namely, the flag of nationalism.However you put it, saying it was 'hijacked'..what you will..the fact is,the clock can't be put back in this matter.
And..."we are sovreign unique race with our own culture,tradition and language,this has all been established....".
No, we are a mongrel race, just like most of the others,just like our neighbours and we have traditions,cultures and languages (emphasis on the plural) and we can't go back to this fantasy of a monocultural, monolithic Ireland. If there ever is a united Ireland, the North will have a relationship with the South such as Scotland has to England, or Hong Kong has to China and we can forget about this "32 county neutral,socialist republic" this hoary old dream peddled for decades by Sinn Fein.

I dare say there are quite a few scots who would tell you that there relationship with england is far far different than the north's with us and hong kong is with china

I dont know why people cant except that if the majority of people in the future of northern ireland want a 32 county ireland under one inclusive goverment.
Why is it so hard for people to fathom ?

Yes comprimise will be made for the good of all but people need to stop pretending like the north is this far far away realm that has little in common with the south

The vast majority of the people on this island want to see a peaceful united ireland its not a dream or a fantasy but its real its similar to germany before unification it can and will happen

The Corinthian

luckyfrank wrote: »

I dont know why people cant except that if the majority of people in the future of northern ireland want a 32 county ireland under one inclusive goverment.
Why is it so hard for people to fathom ?

Why do people keep on suggesting that only NI has a say in this?

Yes comprimise will be made for the good of all but people need to stop pretending like the north is this far far away realm that has little in common with the south

Equally one might argue that some should stop pretending like the north has all that much in common with the south. In reality, the gap is realistically not huge, but neither is the gap between us and a Scott or Welshman.

That's not to say we shouldn't unify, but I do think we need to look at the cultural differences that exist realistically and not with some rose tinted nationalist glasses.

The vast majority of the people on this island want to see a peaceful united ireland its not a dream or a fantasy but its real its similar to germany before unification it can and will happen

I think you'll find that there are numerous differences between Irish unification and German reunification.

LordSutch

Some posters have eluded to a New Flag in previous posts, so here is a Great idea for a new 'All island' or
'All ireland' Flag - to be used in the unlikely event of some form of 'United Island' in about 60 years time )

Ingredients:
Leave the Tricolour as it is :eek: then take the 'Cross of St Patrick' (one third of the Union Flag), then turn the Cross 90o and insert it into the [White Third] at the centre of the Tricolour :eek: So now you have the Green, White & the Orange traditions (unchanged) but joined in the Centre by the 'Cross of St Patrick' signifying 'Unionists' who are not of an Orange persuasion = me Happy

The Cross of St Patrick is currently used by the Newly formed PSNI, the Cross was deliberately chosen because of its 'non sectarian appeal' - the Cross of St Patrick is also the (Irish) one third of the Union Jack which will appeal to Unionists.

Any objections? - Anyone think its a Good idea? - any other ideas re Flags & Anthems?

Bottle_of_Smoke

The Corinthian wrote: »

It's difficult to impossible to truly assess a potential referendum as none has been proposed for us to analyse and the support of groups, both north and south, is very much dependant on the conditions of such a proposal. Remember, no group opposed Irish independence in principle in 1922, but based upon the conditions of that independence, that is precisely what the anti-treaty side did. Politically you can oppose something and still be in favour of the principle behind it - Lisbon was largely opposed on those grounds, that it was a 'bad deal', not because anyone was 'anti-Europe'.

Similarly, any settlement that would pave the way for unification could be rejected on the basis of the conditions surrounding it - any party could patriotically claim to want unification, but not on such terms. And not only Fianna Fail, Fine Gale or Labour, but even Sinn Fein could oppose it. After all, if unification really meant changing the flag, the anthem and many of the symbols and institutions of the Irish Republic, can you really see them supporting it? Such is the tribalism, that I suspect such compromise is beyond their comprehension.

And without such compromise, you're unlikely to see any proposal being seriously considered north of the border.

Have to say I did not consider this and was thinking far too black and white. Cheers

luckyfrank

Camelot wrote: »

Some posters have eluded to a New Flag in previous posts, so here is a Great idea for a new 'All island' or
'All ireland' Flag - to be used in the unlikely event of some form of 'United Island' in about 60 years time )

Ingredients:
Leave the Tricolour as it is :eek: then take the 'Cross of St Patrick' (one third of the Union Flag), then turn the Cross 90o and insert it into the [White Third] at the centre of the Tricolour :eek: So now you have the Green, White & the Orange traditions (unchanged) but joined in the Centre by the 'Cross of St Patrick' signifying 'Unionists' who are not of an Orange persuasion = me Happy

The Cross of St Patrick is currently used by the Newly formed PSNI, the Cross was deliberately chosen because of its 'non sectarian appeal' - the Cross of St Patrick is also the (Irish) one third of the Union Jack which will appeal to Unionists.

Any objections? - Anyone think its a Good idea? - any other ideas re Flags & Anthems?

Id have no problem having a small union jack in the corner of the tri-colour similar to what the aussies and NZ have id have no problem with ireland rejoining the commonwealth for that matter as long as we had our own president as head of state i think leaving the commonwealth was a mistake

ilkhanid

Thanks, Camelot. I'd have to visualize your flag in my mind...it's rather complex!
"Amhran Na Bhfiann in the Bin" is not very sensitive towards Nationalists now is it? How is it any less provocative than God Save the relevant monarch?"
They are both provocative to the other side. In an ideal United ireland both Amhran na Bhfiann and GSTQ would go into the bin. The idea is to find an anthem (and a flag) that transcends both and manages to allude to the cultural traditions of both parties,without excluding or belittling the traditions of the other. The objective is to find shared symbols that both parties could find some common ground in. Having a tricolour alongside a Red hand is little different to the way it is now,with the Union Jack and the tricolour,where both symbols exist side by side but each has meaning only for one side, and are only grudgingly tolerated by the other side.
"I dare say there are quite a few scots who would tell you that there relationship with england is far far different than the north's with us and hong kong is with china".
I'm not maintaining that either are the same or that either are an exact model of a future Ireland. I'm just giving examples of the kind of things people will have to think about,examples of different types of relationships between different ethnic areas within a larger political context.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

LordSutch

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The parts I have highlighted are 100% against the grain from my understanding, and the parts I have not highlighted I totally agree with ...........

Conquered and partitioned No, I would say that the 'South' partitioned the island - by leaving the UK ...

Colony No, this word 'Colony' is a very new addition to the lexicon of words associated with Ireland, and I dare say, that if we were having this discussion only twenty years ago, the word Colony & Ireland would Never have been associated in the same sentence (although I do understand that its 'the in thing' to call ireland an ex-colony).

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

LordSutch

The thing about the use of the word 'Colony' in relation to Ireland, is that (as I have already said) it has become 'fashionable' by some to call Ireland an ex-colony, which from a Unionist perspective makes no sence at all, because we see all the peoples of the british isles (Celtic, Angles, Saxons, Normans, Picts, etc) as having a connection as in 'One Big Family' - so the very idea of Ireland being a Colony is Rediculous!

Ireland is an island just 22 miles away from the island of Britain! (with the isle of Man between the two), with countless other islands surrounding both, so to say that Ireland is/was a 'Colony' leaves the door open to call every other island a Colony (and then you have Scicily off the coast of italy), is that a Colony? and the list might go on for every island beside another island which is a colony of the island next door ...... :cool:

My understanding of the word Colony would pertain mainly to the thirteen 'Colonies' of the United States (some three thousand miles away) with distance very much a part of the Term . . . but for God's sake, not Ireland or the isle of man, the isle of wight, or the Orkneys :cool:

As regards 'Who created the border' well, its complex isnt it - If the South hadnt decided to leave the UK - then - because - etc, etc .........

djpbarry

luckyfrank wrote: »

I dont know why people cant except that if the majority of people in the future of northern ireland want a 32 county ireland under one inclusive goverment.
Why is it so hard for people to fathom ?

What are we being asked to fathom? What exactly will this unification involve?

luckyfrank wrote: »

Yes comprimise will be made for the good of all but people need to stop pretending like the north is this far far away realm that has little in common with the south

As has been said already countless times on this thread and others, there are plenty of similarities between the people of the North and the Republic, but there are plenty of differences too. The high level of support enjoyed by Gerry Adams and co. up north is one example I often cite.

I think the problem is that you're just comparing nationalists down south with nationalists up north - what about the rest of us?

djpbarry

ilkhanid wrote: »

Thanks, Camelot. I'd have to visualize your flag in my mind...it's rather complex!

I think this is what Camelot has in mind? Apologies if I got it wrong.

The Corinthian

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Next you'll tell us that Santa doesn't exist.

Because of this, greater appreciation is needed for the complex political, cultural, and religious forces that have shaped an Ulster notably distinct from the rest of Ireland. We need to consider the potential problems inherent in trying to shoehorn these six counties into the vaunted "32-county Ireland" before we rush ahead with plans for referenda and "re"-unification.

I wouldn't hold my breath where it comes to finding such 'greater appreciation'. The tribalism up north won't countenance it, the romanticism down south can't conceive it and then there's the status quo brigade...

There's quite a few vested interests both north and south in maintaining the divide. Some are financial (the south does not want to pay for unification and the north does not want to loose all that lovely London lolly) and others are political - for example, of the latter, political demographics would drastically change if six counties were suddenly added to the other 26, diluting the influence of the Republic's established parties, and potentially making the northern parties small coalition partners rather than masters of their own devolved home.

Of course, no one need oppose unification. That's political suicide. All you need do is propose a form that's doomed to fail and let the usual malcontents do the dirty work of opposing it. That's assuming that the 'conditions' necessary for a referendum are ever met - a bit like the UK and the Euro.

djpbarry wrote: »

I think this is what Camelot has in mind? Apologies if I got it wrong.

I strongly oppose that flag on purely aesthetic grounds.

LordSutch

Thats it djpbarry 100%, thats an Irish Flag I could do serious business with, and I say that as somebody with serious Unionist leanings !!!

The Flag itself is the Tricolour (Unchanged) to keep Nationalist Ireland Happy, presuming thats OK? then we insert the 'Cross of St Patrick' taken from the 'Union Flag' thus keeping a Unionist perspective alive - and with the Green White & Orange Tricolour still intact.

This now represents everybody - from Green to Orange & all of Unionism - sorted ?

I suppose there are dozens of theories about a flag that would keep everybody Happy, but this is my baby (courtesy of djpbarry).

Cheers for that, & what do you think of its concept?

How did you get it up there in the first place without a url?