The real Ten Commndments or not?

Hagar

I came across this over the week-end and I would be interested in other more knowledgeable posters' views.

Exodus 20:2-17 lists the commandments that are accepted today, but Moses is repeating to the people what god told him. They are not written down.

Some time later, Moses goes back to God and gets the stone tablets. Exodus 31:18. But, when he came down, the people were busy building a golden calf (I know the feeling, turn your back for one minute) and he smashed the tablets...Exodus 31:19. The word commandment hasn't been mentioned to this point. In the first instance, these were words that god "spake". In the second, the words are called "testimony".

Moses goes back a third time and when he returns with the new tablets, the term "10 commandments" is finally mentioned. Exodus 34:28. This time, though, we have a different set of commandments.

They are (Exodus 34: 13-28):

Thou shall worship no other god.
Thou shall make thee no molten gods.
The feast of unleavened bread shall be kept.
Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh, thou shalt rest.
Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
Thrice in a year shall all your men children appear before the Lord God.
Thy shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.
Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of passover be left unto the morning.
The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt being unto the house of the Lord thy God.
Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Is the above a load of hogwash?
Or are Christians following or more likely breaking the wrong Ten Commandments?

Asiaprod

Hagar wrote: »

I came across this over the week-end and I would be interested in other more knowledgeable posters' views.

The quote "Moses goes back a third time" caught my attention. I thought he only went twice!

Hagar

I spotted that myself but I couldn't change the quote or I would have been falsifying it. Nevertheless it does seem to be an accurate quote of the King James Version of Exodus and is close enough to the International Standard Version.

seamus

That looks like it's from 50 Things You're Not Supposed to Know

The heart of the text is true.

The "Ten Commandments" which we are taught in school and pinned up and quoted all over the world, are not the ten commandments. The ten commandments which were inscribed on the stone tablets are those which are quoted above.

The ones familiar to us were never inscribed on stone. However, there's some confusion over what the story is with the original ten that Moses came down and told everyone about. It's possible that these were additional or initial guidelines. Or perhaps Moses forgot what he was told and tried to piece them back together from memory, lest he anger God. It's possible that the original ten and the ten inscribed on stone aren't really linked at all.

Moses did indeed go up three time (I just read it). He went up once and got the original ten, then came back down and told everyone. Then he went up again and the got the stone tablets that he smashed. Then he went up a third time and got two more tablets.

Hagar

seamus wrote: »

That looks like it's from 50 Things You're Not Supposed to Know

The heart of the text is true.

The "Ten Commandments" which we are taught in school and pinned up and quoted all over the world, are not the ten commandments. The ten commandments which were inscribed on the stone tablets are those which are quoted above.

The ones familiar to us were never inscribed on stone. However, there's some confusion over what the story is with the original ten that Moses came down and told everyone about. It's possible that these were additional or initial guidelines. Or perhaps Moses forgot what he was told and tried to piece them back together from memory, lest he anger God. It's possible that the original ten and the ten inscribed on stone aren't really linked at all.

Moses did indeed go up three time (I just read it). He went up once and got the original ten, then came back down and told everyone. Then he went up again and the got the stone tablets that he smashed. Then he went up a third time and got two more tablets.

Well spotted Seamus, that's where I found the item.

I thought I had misread it myself. I'd imagine God didn't change his mind between times and would have only issued one set of Commandments and if I were God I would have put the Commandments in stone rather than the addenda. So what are the chances we are following the wrong set of commandments? Looks pretty likely.

Seaneh

If you're a christian you're ment to understand that the commandments can't be kept anyway. They aren't a set of rules that were made so that we could achive perfection they were made to outline to us that we, in ourselves, will never be able to live to the standard that God requires from us, this is why salvation, through christ, was nessecary.

Basically, no matter how good a person you are, you can't keep the 10 comandments so rather than punish yourself for failing and drowning yourself in guilt or blaming God for being unjust, you should realise that God knew we couldn't keep them and because of this he game us, through his grace, the opertunity to still have a relationship by sending the lamb to pay for our short commings and for this we should be thankfull for, not mourn for our inability to keep a list of impossible rules, no matter what the compesition of those rules is.

Basically, if you're Christian, it doesn't matter what set of "commandments" you try to set your life along, you are not grasping the full meaning of salvation.

don't try and do the impossible, just be thankfull that someone else loved you enough to do the impossible for you.

philologos

Hagar, consult Deuteronomy 5 in which Moses tells the Israelites to observe the Ten Commandments.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0505.htm#6

Pompey Magnus

Jakkass wrote: »

Hagar, consult Deuteronomy 5 in which Moses tells the Israelites to observe the Ten Commandments.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0505.htm#6

Lets get this straight, the traditional 10 Commandments that we all know and love were indeed the 10 written on the stone tablets on top of Mount Sinai? So where did the alternative 10 Commandments come from which Exodus claims was written on the stone tablets?

PDN

It's amazing how people can get themselves so confused by zeroing in on some verses of Scripture and totally ignoring others.

God spoke to the entire people of Israel from the mountain the words of Exodus 20:2-17. He also gave a load of other instructions to Moses when he went back up the mountain (20:22 - 24:1). These other instructions were to be written down by Moses. This is an important detail that helps us distinguish between two sets of teaching. The commandments were written by God Himself on the stone tablets (Exodus 31:18 & Exodus 32:16), while Moses was to write down all the other stuff (Exodus 24:4).

The tablets were indeed broken at the Golden Calf fiasco, but we are told that the second set of stone tablets contained the exact same set of words as the first tablets (Exodus 34:1). So the fact of there being two sets of tablets implies no difference as to their content. Then God gave Moses some more instructions but, unlike the ten commandments, these were to be written down by Moses (Exodus 34:27).

Then we have a verse with two possible interpretations:

"Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant - the Ten Commandments." (Exodus 34:28).

Now, the key question is who does 'he' refer to? Given that both Moses and the Lord are referred to by name in the previous sentence, the Hebrew would allow for either to be the writer.
The context supports the interpretation that that God is the writer. It seems more reasonable, given that God has already written the words of Exodus 20 on stone tablets, that Moses has written all the other numerous chapters of instructions on papyrus or something similar. If we are now to assume that Moses has written 10 different commandments on stone tablets, then we are left with 2 problems:
a) What about all the other stuff God told Moses to write down (4 whole chapters of instructions!)? Why would Moses write some of God's instructions on stone tablets and not the rest?
b) What happened to the stone tablets that God wrote on? Are we to believe that Moses is carrying his own pair of stone tablets containing the 10 commandments, and then has God's pair of stone tablets tucked into his underpants?

Then, to confirm that it was God who wrote the 10 commandments on the tablets, in Deuteronomy 5:6-21 Moses repeats the same 10 commandments as in Exodus 20. He then clearly states that God gave these commandments and wrote them on stone tablets (Deuteronomy 5:22).

Taken overall the sequence is very clear:
1. Moses went up to God. This God told him to instruct the Israelites to obey God's commands. Moses went back down and reported these words to the Israelites. (Exodus 19:1-7)

2. The Israelites agreed that this was a plan - so Moses went back up the mountain a second time to report this response to God. God now told Moses that He would speak out so loud that all the Israelites would hear God speaking. Therefore the people were to ritually cleanse and consecrate themselves. Moses duly went back down the mountain and passed this message on. (Exodus 19:8-15)

3. Three days later the people gathered at the foot of the mountain. God appeared on the mountain with some mighty pyrotechnics and sound effects. Moses went up a third time to meet with God and God told him to warn the people not to step foot on the mountain, but to only bring Aaron with him. Once again Moses goes back down to the people. (Exodus 19:16-25).

4. While Moses is still at the foot of the mountain with the Israelites, God speaks the 10 Commandments and, as promised, the people get to hear God speaking to Moses. (Exodus 20:1-17)

5. The people are so terrified that they beg Moses not to let God speak in such a way again. They say, "You go up and talk with God and then bring us a report." Therefore Moses goes back to God a fourth time. God gives Moses a whole host of additional commandments that he is to pass on to the Israelites (far more than could be squeezed onto two stone tablets unless they were the size of a house). He also tells Moses to come back yet again with the priests and the elders. (Exodus 20:18 - 24:2)

6. Moses goes back down and, as agreed, tells the people what God said to him. It is at this point that Moses writes down all the commands of God. This writing is clearly distinct from any stone tablets and refers to "everything the Lord had said" - in other words all the stuff God has just been speaking to Moses, not the 10 Commandments. (Exodus 24:3-4)

7. Moses goes to the foot of the mountain with the priests and elders. They remain there as commanded to worship at a distance, while Moses, accompanied only by his apprentice Joshua, goes up the mountain a fifth time. (Exodus 24:5-14)

8. This time Moses stays up the mountain for 40 days. God gives him a load of commandments and instructions that he (Moses) is instructed to pass on to the Israelites. God also inscribed the 10 Commandments (the ones earlier proclaimed in the hearing of all the Israelites) onto tablets of stone. There are two clearly distinct sets of instructions now - the ones that God has inscribed on the tablets and all the other stuff that Moses is responsible for passing on. (Exodus 24:15 - 31:18)

9. Moses comes down the mountain with the stone tablets. He throws a wobbly because of the Golden Calf and smashes the tablets. (Exodus 32:1-30).

10. Moses talks to God again, this time in the tent of meeting rather than up on the mountain. God tells him to bring two new blank tablets of stone up the mountain so God can write the exact same words on them - in other words a duplicate copy of the 10 Commandments. (Exodus 32:31 - 34:3)

11. Moses duly goes back up the mountain for a sixth time. God gives him some more instructions and commandments. As promised God once again writes on the blank tablets and reinscribes the 10 Commandments. Moses comes back down the mountain carrying this second set of tablets, still inscribed with the Ten Commandments that God had announced to the entire congregation in Exodus 20. (Exodus 34:4-29)

12. Moses, as instructed by God, duly passes on all the other commandments to the other Israelites. This is done verbally and in writing - hence we have entire books of the law. The Ten Commandments on the stone tablets were kept in the Tabernacle.

13. Just in case anyone wants to try to invent something different, Moses reaffirms in Deuteronomy Chapter 5 that God wrote the 10 Commandments on the tablets of stone. Therefore the Jews, for the remainder of their history, recognise that the words of Exodus 20 constitute the 10 Commandments.

So, Moses actually went up the mountain 6 times. The 10 commandments were announced in the hearing of all the Israelites and written by God on tablets of stone. Moses also wrote down a lot of other commandments.

Finally, Christians are not bound to obey a list of commandments - either those on the stone tablets or the ones Moses wrote down. Instead they are to live by the example and teaching of Jesus (which does reiterate 9 of the 10 commandments).

Hagar

PDN wrote: »

Finally, Christians are not bound to obey a list of commandments - either those on the stone tablets or the ones Moses wrote down. Instead they are to live by the example and teaching of Jesus (which does reiterate 9 of the 10 commandments).

Why not? Don't the Commandments form part of the terms of the Covenant between God and man? Doesn't the teachings of Jesus which reiterate the Commandments reaffirm the Covenant? Thus confirming that man is still bound by them?

PDN

Hagar wrote: »

Why not? Don't the Commandments form part of the terms of the Covenant between good and and man? Doesn't the teachings of Jesus which reiterate the Commandments reaffirm the Covenant? Thus confirming that man is still bound by them?

The Commandments formed part of the terms of the Covenant between God and the Israelites. These terms included the following:
Circumcision, avoiding eating shellfish or pork, sacrificial offerings in the Temple, celebration of Jewish feasts and holydays including the Sabbath.

I find it amusing that many Christians cheerfully jettison most of these Jewish practices but try to keep the Sabbath (albeit in a deformed way by moving it from Saturday to Sunday with zero Scriptural warrant for so doing). Other sects, such as Seventh Day Adventists, observe the Sabbath and retain dietary restrictions etc.

The Mosaic Covenant was fulfilled with the coming of Jesus Christ, therefore its ritualistic and ceremonial requirements are not bionding upon Christians. Moral commands are of course another issue since God's morality does not change. That is why the New Testament reiterates moral standards such as avoiding stealing, adultery etc.

We know that the Sabbath was a ceremonial, rather than moral, issue because Christians are expressly told that no-one has the right to judge us in respect to keeping the Sabbath (Colossians 2:16).

Hagar

So I was right all along, there are much more knowledgeable posters here.

Thanks for taking the time to compose such clear and helpful posts.

squidgey

I have a theory... These commandments were written/engraved to try and scare the people into being "good people". The whole idea of following these commandments because you were told to and there will be consequences if you don't is about 2000 years outdated. It misses the whole point of spirituality - doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do. To harm another is wrong - it should feel wrong, we shouldn't not do it because somebody told us not to. We should already know that as spiritual creatures.

santing

squidgey wrote: »

I have a theory... .

Good theory. Did you read Paul's letter to Timothy?

1Ti 1:8-11 NET
But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately, (9) realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, (10) sexually immoral people, practicing homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers -- in fact, for any who live contrary to sound teaching. (11) This accords with the glorious gospel of the blessed God that was entrusted to me.

BrianCalgary

squidgey wrote: »

I have a theory... These commandments were written/engraved to try and scare the people into being "good people". The whole idea of following these commandments because you were told to and there will be consequences if you don't is about 2000 years outdated. It misses the whole point of spirituality - doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do. To harm another is wrong - it should feel wrong, we shouldn't not do it because somebody told us not to. We should already know that as spiritual creatures.

That's the point squidgy is we are not good. The commandements prove that out. In our arrogance we walk around and justify everything we do as being good, we believe ourselves to be th eultimate good.

But, the law says something completely different, it lets us know that we are not good, that we sin and do wrong to our fellow man.

andrewh5

Hagar wrote: »

I came across this over the week-end and I would be interested in other more knowledgeable posters' views.



Is the above a load of hogwash?
Or are Christians following or more likely breaking the wrong Ten Commandments?

There are actually 613 commandments in the Torah (Old Testament to you) but Christians only chose to adopt 10 of them.

Fanny Cradock

Did you read PDN's excellent post on the previous page? I know it's long, but it address this.

BrianCalgary

andrewh5 wrote: »

There are actually 613 commandments in the Torah (Old Testament to you) but Christians only chose to adopt 10 of them.

Actually not. Jesus boils it all down to two: 1) Love God with all your heart soul and mind and 2) love you rneighbour as yourself, on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When I look at it, every rule can hearken back to one of these. As a Christian these are the only two. makes it simple.

martinstuart

PDN wrote: »

The Commandments formed part of the terms of the Covenant between God and the Israelites. These terms included the following:
Circumcision, avoiding eating shellfish or pork, sacrificial offerings in the Temple, celebration of Jewish feasts and holydays including the Sabbath.

I find it amusing that many Christians cheerfully jettison most of these Jewish practices but try to keep the Sabbath

PDN makes some good points, and his/her analysis of the timeline of Moses's trips up the mountain looks impressive to me (I'm not at all knowledgeable enough to analyse it).

I feel I must comment, however, on the above. I'm one of those Christians who "amuse" PDN by trying to "keep the Sabbath". I try and go to Mass each Sunday. Why? Because I get a lot out of it. It's also the best way to keep the Sabbath. It's also a replication of what early Christian communities did, often in secret because of the danger, when they fulfilled Jesus' 'command' at the Last Supper to meet together and celebrate God's love for us (so intense that Jesus came and accepted the intense agony of his crucifixion [for refusing to stop living and preaching a life of love]) when he said "Do This In Memory Of Me". He replaced animal sacrifices with his own sacrifice, in effect becoming "the lamb of God".

Christ--like the Christians who amuse PDN--did not jettison the Ten Commandments. He said just that.

He, however, revealed more of God than what we (humankind) already knew of God. And so he summed up the Ten Commandments in those "two commandments" and taught us how to live both by his explicit teaching (scrapping the vast majority of the 600+ laws developed over the years by overly controlling priests) and by how he lived. He lived for others, in complete obedience of God his Father.

As Christians, we believe first and foremost in the lessons of the Gospels. The Old Testament--and the Ten Commandments--are full of how people then understood God and how God revealed him/herself over time, bringing us up to the so-called New Testament where God revealed himself fully in Jesus.

The above is simply my understanding of how things were/are. I am no authority. I'm no academic. Don't believe me! No doubt I am wrong in a few places, but I hope the above, alongside PDN's comments and others' comments, will help.

Fanny Cradock

Good post. But in PDN's defence, I believe that he was speaking of the notion that a particular day (a Sunday) being more valuable to God was one he didn't accept - something I happen to agree with. However, there is nothing with the convention of worshipping on a Sunday, and it's all the better if you get a lot out of it.

Welcome to the forum, btw.